Opinion Bucks and Recruiters Overrated our List this Trade Period

[The Royal Sampler]

Cloke too, freo may press the panic button?

I doubt we'd get adequate compensation but if a pick in the first half of the first round was offered you'd have to take it.

 

[AmellyPies]

We can always trade out players for draft picks too....
Maybe Grundy for first round pick and get Minson and have cox and wyatt to learn off an actual ruck coach.
Cloke too, freo may press the panic button?

Grundys not going anywhere, Witts is.

 

[spartan-magpie]

I'd say the coaching staff is the problem here. List is well and truly good enough. Some skilled, quick and smart defenders wouldn't hurt.

 

[Soaring Magpie]

I don't see it as them over rating the list at all, they went out and good two very good young players into the club, yes they paid for them but there is no garantee the picks we had would have been of the quality of treloar and aish. And they will both potentially be 10 year players.
I actually believe bucks is happy with the list and has moved the game plan to a less contested bash and crash style, so far it isn't working but it will take time to adapt to this new style, and certainly doesn't help that 3/4 of the side are shot on confidence at th moment. if by round 12 we are still playing this poorly I will be worried.
It's all about 2017 and beyond, the club has stated that several times.

 

[Pies_10]

What is this I hear mentioned about the pick being protected if it is top 5, is this true?

If so, we dodge a bullet.

No the AFL isn't like the NBA, there isn't such a thing as protection of picks.

 

[the mighty T]

We made the right calls in the off-season, that much is clear to all who aren't blinded by the anger of our performance

 

[Pies_10]

Howe is the one in still stunned by.
He was average at best at Melbourne, what made them think he was gonna be any better at Collingwood.

 

[PieNSauce]

Howe is the one in still stunned by.
He was average at best at Melbourne, what made them think he was gonna be any better at Collingwood.

Jury still out on Howe. He was recruited to play a completely different role at Collingwood because there was a belief that he was never played to his strengths at Melbourne. His role with us will be more of an attacking winger because of his tank with his marking ability to be secondary but complimentary to that. I think it's harsh personally to make a call on such a small sample.

 

[Dynamics]

In terms of the Treloar deal, I'll take the bird in the hand at this point. The Judd deal was different, by the way. They gave up one of the most promising KPFs in the league as part of the package to get Judd. He turned out to be a gun tall forward and Carlton have been trying to make do with the likes of Casboult. So they gave away a known quantity, to some degree.

We gave away picks, which are speculative. Derek Hine proved that with some of his first round picks in recent years. I have much less faith in Hine than I did five years ago.

 

[Jekyll and Hyde]

Howe is the one in still stunned by.
He was average at best at Melbourne, what made them think he was gonna be any better at Collingwood.

Jessie white v2.0?

 

[NT.Thunder]

Howe is the one in still stunned by.
He was average at best at Melbourne, what made them think he was gonna be any better at Collingwood.

Showed much more than a few others I saw yesterday

 

[Apex36]

I don't buy the line about the list not being talented enough. We were competitive last year (despite the win/loss ratio in the second half of the year), and we strengthened the list over the trade period.

The problem is the coaching. A gameplan has been implemented that opposition teams can break down way too easily, and nothing seems to be getting done to rectify it. It's not the personnel, it's the guy steering the ship, as much as it pains me to say it.

 

[wicksy]

I doubt we'd get adequate compensation but if a pick in the first half of the first round was offered you'd have to take it.

First round pick for Cloke? Have we travelled back in time together TRS?

 

[good4footy]

1) The list is good.

2) The injury list for 3 years a disaster (and usually leads to coaches losing their jobs).

3) The coaching up for debate as a result of point 2.

The reoccurrence, management, decision making and timeliness of return from injury is a reflection on our fitness department. That department is letting down the club and will cost people their jobs.

Unfortunately it is now 3 years of ridiculous injury lists- at some stage people get tired of using that as a reason. Unfortunately for Bucks and others, after all this time we don't know if he / they can coach but how long do you give someone to find out. Sometimes luck does not go your way and you pay the price. Even the best say they need the cattle on the ground for success.

The board and Bucks hitched their wagon to the current fitness set up- a decision that will have consequences for them.

 

[wicksy]

I don't see it as them over rating the list at all, they went out and good two very good young players into the club, yes they paid for them but there is no garantee the picks we had would have been of the quality of treloar and aish. And they will both potentially be 10 year players.
I actually believe bucks is happy with the list and has moved the game plan to a less contested bash and crash style, so far it isn't working but it will take time to adapt to this new style, and certainly doesn't help that 3/4 of the side are shot on confidence at th moment. if by round 12 we are still playing this poorly I will be worried.
It's all about 2017 and beyond, the club has stated that several times.

I've been happy to play the patience game but each year we push our premiership window out by one or two more years.... Meanwhile, teams like the bulldogs, Melbourne and St Kilda are flying past us.

We're a complete and utter joke right now. I havr no faith in anyone at that club anymore.... I'm even starting to question whether Pendlebury has the carefactor to take us back to the promised land.

Dissolutionment (don't care if it's not a word) is high in this one.

 

[BuildEmUp]

Jury still out on Howe. He was recruited to play a completely different role at Collingwood because there was a belief that he was never played to his strengths at Melbourne. His role with us will be more of an attacking winger because of his tank with his marking ability to be secondary but complimentary to that. I think it's harsh personally to make a call on such a small sample.

I was at the game yesterday .. Howe was one of the biggest passengers, quite lazy, did not work back and defend when the ball was turned over ... but in saying that he had a few mates .. Kennedy and and Lumumba did well though ... .. oh wait

 

[Spatfers]

Nothing wrong with the list, the list is actually quite good and I think you'll find there will be no shortage of coaching candidates applying when the times comes. That's the issue though, when that time will come.

They just aren't playing for Bucks.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

First round pick for Cloke? Have we travelled back in time together TRS?

You wouldn't have to travel too far back, but yes you'd think that ship has sailed.

 

[doodles98]

1) The list is good.

2) The injury list for 3 years a disaster (and usually leads to coaches losing their jobs).

3) The coaching up for debate as a result of point 2.

The reoccurrence, management, decision making and timeliness of return from injury is a reflection on our fitness department. That department is letting down the club and will cost people their jobs.

Unfortunately it is now 3 years of ridiculous injury lists- at some stage people get tired of using that as a reason. Unfortunately for Bucks and others, after all this time we don't know if he / they can coach but how long do you give someone to find out. Sometimes luck does not go your way and you pay the price. Even the best say they need the cattle on the ground for success.

The board and Bucks hitched their wagon to the current fitness set up- a decision that will have consequences for them.

Weakest post I've seen for ages. Last year we had a very favorable injury list and in no way above the AFL norm. The previous 2 were terrible but you've missed that probably the worst year of all for injuries to key players was 2012 where we made the prelim. All clubs have injuries and all clubs have to deal with them and cover for them. Some clubs just have deeper lists and better playing systems which allow for injury coverage. There may well be issues with our medical and fitness staff but this is not in anyway to blame for our current predicament.

 

[Cleric]

From the outside I think you have traded and drafted really well.
Looks to me that the issue is the coaching department.
Looks like a classic of a club gathering in talent that doesnt play for the coach. Coach gets fired and a new coach comes in. Then the club goes from bottom 4 to a finals team in one year.

 

[Spatfers]

From the outside I think you have traded and drafted really well.
Looks to me that the issue is the coaching department.
Looks like a classic of a club gathering in talent that doesnt play for the coach. Coach gets fired and a new coach comes in. Then the club goes from bottom 4 to a finals team in one year.

Hope you're right. BTW epic win on Saturday night

 

[danielnajdek]

1) The list is good.

2) The injury list for 3 years a disaster (and usually leads to coaches losing their jobs).

3) The coaching up for debate as a result of point 2.

The reoccurrence, management, decision making and timeliness of return from injury is a reflection on our fitness department. That department is letting down the club and will cost people their jobs.

Unfortunately it is now 3 years of ridiculous injury lists- at some stage people get tired of using that as a reason. Unfortunately for Bucks and others, after all this time we don't know if he / they can coach but how long do you give someone to find out. Sometimes luck does not go your way and you pay the price. Even the best say they need the cattle on the ground for success.

The board and Bucks hitched their wagon to the current fitness set up- a decision that will have consequences for them.

Get rid of Davoren. The guy is a potato head. Every club he goes to they turn to s**t. I can cop broken ankles and ACL's because that's part of footy. But I cannot cop constant hamstring injuries and injuries that should be 1-2 weeks stretching out for a half a year injury. Luke Hodge was back after 2 ******* weeks.

 

[Finnishpie]

Okay, I've been thinking a lot about this issue lately, and here's what I think happened.

1. The decision to dismantle the list in 2010 was probably an error (though I can see why it was thought a good idea). We really need Shaw (rather than Adams) and Wellingham, at least. The decisions was to load up on early draft picks, but that's always a risk, because you're trading tried and true players out for speculative choices.
2. We made a mistake in not recruiting fast and skillful players, and we traded out Seedsman (sorry, but you know, he's a running back with pace and decent skill), Ben Kennedy (sorry, but wouldn't it be better to have him and Shaw instead of Adams?), Lumumba, who played well for the dees yesterday with pace and okay skill. Instead we got Howe, who looks lost to me -- he can take a mark and that's it.
3. Injuries have hit us, sadly. Eliot, Ramsey, Swan, Sharenberg, Broomhead.
4. Cloke has declined precipitously and the other forwards aren't performing. Jesse White, Gault, just aren't up to it. Seems to me that Reid is going to have to go forward again. And Cloke to the VFL.

 

[Ugene41]

The trade ended up effectively being Treloar and Aish for our 2015 Pick 8, 2016 first rounder and Freeman.

If you look at it as Treloar for 2016 first rounder and Freeman you would do that deal any day. Would you do Aish for pick 8 2015? Considering he was pick 7 in a much stronger draft with two years of development, you would probably do that as well. I have strong hopes for Aish and yesterday's game provided some glimpses of his class which will be much needed. We keep lamenting how we need players who can kick. He can develop into our version of Jared McVeigh and is on track with better averages at this stage of his career.

The problem with our list isn't talent. We have a strong core group of young players that will be more than enough to take us to our next period of challenging for the flag as they mature. I don't even think we will have a skills problem once our young players replace the old NQR's like Toovey, Blair, McCaffer, Greenwood etc. If you look at our future best 22:

FB: Scharenberg, Brown, Williams
HB: Aish, Reid, Ramsey
C: Sidebottom, Adams, Varcoe
HF: Fasolo, Cloke, Howe
FF: Elliot, Moore, Broomhead
RR: Grundy, Pendlebury, Treloar
Bench: De Goey, Crisp, Maynard, Oxley
Emergencies: Langdon, Cox, Witts, Marsh, Greenwood, Goodyear

The only below average kicks in that team would be Williams, Cloke and De Goey (I don't count Adams as he has been much improved and can actually spot up targets inside 50). There would be also 15(!) first round picks in that team if you count Cloke as F/S. We don't really need anymore first round picks that take 3+ years to develop. The only thing that team needs would be someone better to replace Cloke (future free agency Tom Lynch? Patton? Hurley (and swap Reid forward)?) Plus a small fast crumbing forward like a Betts/Garlett which we can trade for as cream.

The problem at the moment is the game plan. There is no structure or set plays with players with the ball not knowing what to do and players up the field not knowing where to go to present an option. Similarly defensive zones are not working as it's not deep enough to stop the long kick over the top and not wide enough to stop the short kick out wide to space. It's either a coaching problem or communication problem. That plus the lack of loud on-field leadership (Pendles, Brown, Adams, Sidebottom, McCaffer etc are all quiet lead by example on the training field types). We need someone who can marshall the group on field when they recognise we're losing structure and having a run of goals scored on us. That is the big issue we're facing. We're much better than this but at the moment we just have no confidence and not enough leadership on-field and at the coaching level to turn it around.

 

[TW Sherrin]

I don't think they have overrated the list. I think they have failed to understand the changes to rotations and how it affects the list we have. We have too many inside mids, Adams / Crisp / Greenwood / Pendlebury / DeGoey / Blair. They are all inside players and not line breakers or spreaders.

The game has changed and opened up and we get left flat footed and cant keep up. The Hawks have the foot skills to succeed, we don't.

Crisp has to go to a back flank. Greenwood is a mid only. Ditto Adams. We cant have more than 2 of Adams / Levi / Pendlebury on the ball at any time. Pendlebury cant play half back. He's not quick enough. Blair is done. Just like McKee was made redundant by the a rule change, Blair is finished under the new rotation cap.

This year is done already so its important they change the set up now and try to get some systems going for next year. Get players with speed and spread around the ball. I'm just not sure we have the right list going forward.