Carlton Youngsters vs. Richmond Youngsters

[Dramoth]

Well said Dramoth, if Malthouse can marshall a few things and take your forwardline and backline from 'good' to great' then there is no reason a top 4 birth is unlikely

At the moment, I will simply take a top 8 spot... if we managed to end up top 4 then thats definitely a bonus.

 

[Danog]

The Tigers I rate there are Cotch, Dustbin, Rance, Conca, Ellis, Vlastuin and Griffiths. Vickery, Dea, Grimes and Batchelor i'd have on the brink of solid future 22 contributors while Elton, McBean, McIntosh, Helbig, McDonough have some work ahead of them. Don't rate quadzilla Arnot or O'Hanlon while I don't know the other names.

Grimes and Vickery are clear best 22. Grimes is seriously under-rated by most.

Personally thought Lonergan and Stephenson were good additions too but I am really against a team at the stage Richmond are at using the other picks/list space on duds like Petterd, Knights and Edwards instead of adding young talent to the list.

If you're top four then top up all you like, if you're still trying to build a finals list then embrace the draft.

Richmond took the most 18 year olds in the most recent drafts of any club in the competition (equal with GWS).

No team wants injuries but Richmond wouldn't want too many as then they'd really find out the value of their stocks.

This is what happened in 2012. We have addressed it by recruiting senior players to improve our depth all around the ground.
Chaplin - Tall back
Knights - Forward / mid
Edwards - 3rd tall
Lonergan - Inside mid
Petterd - Forward / mid
Stephenson - Ruck
Those players are clearly better than some of the people we were forced to play this year, due to injury. Addam Maric, Jeromey Webberley, Kelvin Moore, Angus Graham, Tom Derickx, Jayden Post, Brad Miller, and Matt White. All of them except for Derickx and White are gone. I'd say that our depth has improved dramatically with our most recent recruiting.

 

[NZ_Tiger]

Seems as good a time as any.

Richmond have only improved up to 12th in the past years. I expect them to finish 10-12 this year but be a legitimate contender to make the finals in 2014. They've done a good job in getting real contested work horses to the team like Ellis, Morris and Vlastuin recently and will be a more competitive team as a result.

Carlton players under 24______________Richmond players under 24
Matthew Kreuzer______________________________ Trent Cotchin
Bryce Gibbs__________________________________ Dustin Martin
Chris Yarran__________________________________ Reece Conca
Lachlan Henderson____________________________ Alex Rance
Jeff Garlett__________________________________ Brandon Ellis
Mitch Robinson_______________________________ Jake Batchelor
Troy Menzel_________________________________ Nick Vlastuin
Josh Bootsma________________________________ Tyrone Vickery
Jeremy Laidler________________________________ Dylan Grimes
Matthew Watson______________________________ Ben Griffiths
Zach Tuohy__________________________________ Brad Helbig
Tom Bell _____________________________________Matt Dea
Ed Curnow___________________________________ David Astbury
Levi Casboult_________________________________ Todd Elton
Kane Lucas __________________________________Matthew McDonough
Patrick McCarthy_____________________________ Liam McBean
Andrew McInnes______________________________ Kamdyn McIntosh
Luke Mitchell_________________________________ Brett O'Hanlon
Nick Graham_________________________________ Matthew Arnot
David Ellard__________________________________ Ben Darrou
Aaron Joseph________________________________ John Heslin
Dylan Buckley________________________________ Cadeyn Williams
Jaryd Cachia
Frazer Dale
Marcus Davies
Tom Temay
Rhys O'Keeffe

Richmond have quite a few solid tall prospects to come in over the next two seasons and what they probably need to find in the next few drafts is another really good medium defender to shore up the defence and then a Lewis Jetta type game breaker now that the engine room is complete.

Looks like they went a bit hard at the recycled/mature aged players and for a supposedly younger team than us they have five less players aged under 24. I thought at the time there were a few mature players that were good gets and a few they should've avoided in favour of young talent and this confirms it for me.

24 seems a rather arbitrary age? Under 22 and it looks like this...
Carlton players 22 and under_____________Richmond players 22 and under
Chris Yarran 22__________________________________ Trent Cotchin 22
Troy Menzel 18__________________________________ Dustin Martin 21
Josh Bootsma 19_________________________________ Reece Conca 20
Mathew Watson 20_______________________________ Steven Verrier 19
Tom Bell 21_____________________________________ Brandon Ellis 19
Levi Casboult 22_________________________________ Jake Batchelor 20
Kane Lucas 21___________________________________ Nick Vlastuin 18
Patrick McCarthy 20_______________________________ Tyrone Vickery 22
Andrew McInnes 20_______________________________ Dylan Grimes 21
Luke Mitchell 20__________________________________ Ben Griffiths 21
Nick Graham 18__________________________________ Brad Helbig 20
Dylan Buckley 19_________________________________Matt Dea 21
Jarryd Cachia 21_________________________________ David Astbury 21
Frazer Dale 19___________________________________ Todd Elton 19
Marcus Davies 21_________________________________Matthew McDonough 18
Tom Temay 18___________________________________ Liam McBean 18
Rhys O' Keefe 22_________________________________ Kamdyn McIntosh 18
______________________________________________ Brett O'Hanlon 19
______________________________________________ Matthew Arnot 19
______________________________________________ Ben Darrou 19
______________________________________________ Cadeyn Williams 18

Couple of year makes the picture read a lot differently. I think we went as hard at the draft as it was safe to do. Especially the last two years where the drafts have dropped off quickly.What this confirms for me is that Carlton are 2 years further along in their rebuild.

I like the list on the right a lot better. In both quality and quantity.

 

[Dramoth]

24 seems a rather arbitrary age? Under 22 and it looks like this...
Carlton players 22 and under_____________Richmond players 22 and under
Chris Yarran 22__________________________________ Trent Cotchin 22
Troy Menzel 18__________________________________ Dustin Martin 21
Josh Bootsma 19_________________________________ Reece Conca 20
Mathew Watson 20_______________________________ Steven Verrier 19
Tom Bell 21_____________________________________ Brandon Ellis 19
Levi Casboult 22_________________________________ Jake Batchelor 20
Kane Lucas 21___________________________________ Nick Vlastuin 18
Patrick McCarthy 20_______________________________ Tyrone Vickery 22
Andrew McInnes 20_______________________________ Dylan Grimes 21
Luke Mitchell 20__________________________________ Ben Griffiths 21
Nick Graham 18__________________________________ Brad Helbig 20
Dylan Buckley 19_________________________________Matt Dea 21
Jarryd Cachia 21_________________________________ David Astbury 21
Frazer Dale 19___________________________________ Todd Elton 19
Marcus Davies 21_________________________________Matthew McDonough 18
Tom Temay 18___________________________________ Liam McBean 18
Rhys O' Keefe 22_________________________________ Kamdyn McIntosh 18
______________________________________________ Brett O'Hanlon 19
______________________________________________ Matthew Arnot 19
______________________________________________ Ben Darrou 19
______________________________________________ Cadeyn Williams 18

Couple of year makes the picture read a lot differently. I think we went as hard at the draft as it was safe to do. Especially the last two years where the drafts have dropped off quickly.What this confirms for me is that Carlton are 2 years further along in their rebuild.

I like the list on the right a lot better. In both quality and quantity.

Well you certainly seem to have quantity... not 100% sure about the quality of some of those guys.

But as someone else said... it's the pre-season and Richmond always are being touted as a side on the rise with finals/premiership aspirations... which always seems to die after the first round hiding you cop.

Dont you think that Richmond would want to get a couple of good easy games under their belt at the start of each season before taking on Carlton. It would do the Richmond players some good to know that they have beaten some lower end sides before meeting up with the side that they couldnt even beat when that side had to field what was basically a VFL side.

In the words of Effie... "How embarrassment"!

 

[NZ_Tiger]

Well you certainly seem to have quantity... not 100% sure about the quality of some of those guys.

But as someone else said... it's the pre-season and Richmond always are being touted as a side on the rise with finals/premiership aspirations... which always seems to die after the first round hiding you cop.

Dont you think that Richmond would want to get a couple of good easy games under their belt at the start of each season before taking on Carlton. It would do the Richmond players some good to know that they have beaten some lower end sides before meeting up with the side that they couldnt even beat when that side had to field what was basically a VFL side.

In the words of Effie... "How embarrassment"!

Yeah. Some of our guys won't make it. Though I can see some on the Carlton side I don't think will make it either.

 

[Dramoth]

Yeah. Some of our guys won't make it. Though I can see some on the Carlton side I don't think will make it either.

Probably less on our side than on yours I think.

But then again, you would be welcome to come along and top up on our rejects after they leave here... according to some of your supporters, they instantly become much better players when they move to Richmond. Regardless of what they were like at their previous club.

 

[Danog]

Probably less on our side than on yours I think.

Disagree. Who do you think will make it on both sides?

 

[zeeCFC]

I'd say the under 22 Richmond crop is of higher quality. Looking at it objectively you couldn't make any other assumption. Of course Cotchin and Martin help a whole lot.

 

[zeeCFC]

FB: Temay, Watson, McInnes
HB: Yarran, McCarthy, Bootsma
C: Buckley, O'Keeffe, Lucas
HF: Menzel, Mitchell, Dale
FF: --, Casboult, --
R: ---, Bell, Cachia
IC: Graham, Davies

Still looks good to me though

Our senior crop is infinitely better than theirs though

 

[Danog]

FB: Darrou, Grimes, Dea
HB: McIntosh, Griffiths, Batchelor
C: Ellis, Conca, Vlastuin
HF: Helbig, Elton, O'Hanlon
FF: McDonough, Astbury, Vickery
R: McBean, Martin, Cotchin
IC: Arnot, Verrier, Williams
Sub: Simon

 

[HARKER]

Disagree. Who do you think will make it on both sides?

That alone doesn't amount to much.
Some players "make it" because the side has no other viable options.

We were all in awe of Melbourne's youngsters 2 years ago. How did that end up?

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

I'd say the under 22 Richmond crop is of higher quality. Looking at it objectively you couldn't make any other assumption. Of course Cotchin and Martin help a whole lot.

Thats what happens when you consistantly finish lower than the other club, and have greater access to earlier draft picks.

 

[Monkey King]

I'd say the under 22 Richmond crop is of higher quality. Looking at it objectively you couldn't make any other assumption. Of course Cotchin and Martin help a whole lot.

Yeah, but Cotchin will turn 23yo second round into the season.

 

[Monkey King]

24 seems a rather arbitrary age?

No less really than 22 & under. How about we just make it U21 ...

Carlton players 22 and under_____________Richmond players 22 and under
Troy Menzel 18__________________________________ Reece Conca 20
Josh Bootsma 19_________________________________ Brandon Ellis 19
Mathew Watson 20_______________________________ Steven Verrier 19
Patrick McCarthy 20______________________________ Nick Vlastuin 18
Andrew McInnes 20_______________________________ Jake Batchelor 20
Luke Mitchell 20__________________________________ Brad Helbig 20
Nick Graham 18__________________________________ Todd Elton 19
Dylan Buckley 19_________________________________ Liam McBean 18
Frazer Dale 19___________________________________ Kamdyn McIntosh 18
Tom Temay 18 _________________________________ Matthew McDonough 18
______________________________________________ Brett O'Hanlon 19
______________________________________________ Matthew Arnot 19
______________________________________________ Ben Darrou 19
______________________________________________ Cadeyn Williams 18

 

[#BeNavy]

I think the Tigers top 6 or 7 players are very good players, guys like Cotchin, Deledio, Martin, Foley, Maric, Riewoldt would without question get a game in our best 22. I just think their list falls away significantly after that though, they have a lot of young players who have the potential to become very good players but they aren't there yet. In saying that, I expect them to go better this year and I think they might sneak into the finals. They have to if they are going anywhere.

 

[KnaveyBlue]

I'd say the under 22 Richmond crop is of higher quality. Looking at it objectively you couldn't make any other assumption. Of course Cotchin and Martin help a whole lot.

I agree, but it's to be expected. The last 4 years they've finished 12th, 12th, second last, second last.

Carlton by comparison has played off in finals 3 of the last 4 years, and haven't finished below Richmond since 2006.

If the Tigers' Under 22 players weren't significantly better than Carlton's then their supporters would have every right to take to Punt Road with torches and pitchforks.

 

[Morro]

This could actually be a good thread, and many are using common sense. I hope when the round 1 threads start we can play like adults as there is too much baiting going on.

That under 22 list shows a significant advantage to Richmond, that is undeniable. And yes, as was stated, this is to be expected due to better picks in recent years. I think in fairness though, that list shows a distinct improvement in our drafting.

You guys havent hit too much gold lately with your picks but again that could change in the next 12 months.

That last comment is meant to start a fight, its just an opinion. Im not sledging or bagging your club, and I welcome all of you to post on our board and speak honestly when you do.

 

[Kramer1]

24 seems a rather arbitrary age? Under 22 and it looks like this...

Couple of year makes the picture read a lot differently. I think we went as hard at the draft as it was safe to do. Especially the last two years where the drafts have dropped off quickly.What this confirms for me is that Carlton are 2 years further along in their rebuild.

I like the list on the right a lot better. In both quality and quantity.

Of course what you mean to say is that a cut off at 24 doesn't place your list to advantage, so let's find a number that does.

24 and under would actually be an better way to compare lists. It gives a span of six years, giving a better indication of list health (IE the guys that will fill the bulk of a best 22 in a few years time), and picks up everyone from unproven rookies, emerging talents, and young leaders.

 

[NZ_Tiger]

Of course what you mean to say is that a cut off at 24 doesn't place your list to advantage, so let's find a number that does.

24 and under would actually be an better way to compare lists. It gives a span of six years, giving a better indication of list health (IE the guys that will fill the bulk of a best 22 in a few years time), and picks up everyone from unproven rookies, emerging talents, and young leaders.

Sin picking 24 as the age to highlight "youth" was a pretty blatant manipulation of the data to back his argument up. I gave it a quick reshuffle and the picture changed pretty dramatically. While under 24 can still be considered youth many of those players will have been in the system for 4+ years, to use the comparison as a way to pot Richmonds recruiting is a massive longbow.

An objective look at the ages of the list will tell you that Carlton's team is a few years away from being at it's peak while Richmond's a year behind Carlton's at least. Which is good for both clubs as they have assembled a core group and free agency and some uncompromised drafts will allow them to fill any list holes and give finals a real crack in the coming years.

 

[NZ_Tiger]

Probably less on our side than on yours I think.

But then again, you would be welcome to come along and top up on our rejects after they leave here... according to some of your supporters, they instantly become much better players when they move to Richmond. Regardless of what they were like at their previous club.

Okay... you must have a better crystal ball than mine, though I think your just being argumentative for the sake of it.

 

[Silvagnis]

I think the Tigers top 6 or 7 players are very good players, guys like Cotchin, Deledio, Martin, Foley, Maric, Riewoldt would without question get a game in our best 22. I just think their list falls away significantly after that though, they have a lot of young players who have the potential to become very good players but they aren't there yet. In saying that, I expect them to go better this year and I think they might sneak into the finals. They have to if they are going anywhere.

We don't need another ruckman.

Maric can't play second ruck/forward behind Kreuzer who would be the number one ruck.

Vickery has more ability, but he needs to become more than just a Tippett-type tease who lacks mongrel.

 

[Morro]

We don't need another ruckman.

Maric can't play second ruck/forward behind Kreuzer who would be the number one ruck.

Vickery has more ability, but he needs to become more than just a Tippett-type tease who lacks mongrel.

True, but based on 2012 he was the 2nd best ruck for the season, which probably pushes Kreuzer to be second ruck/fwd, not the other way.

 

[Silvagnis]

I'd say the under 22 Richmond crop is of higher quality. Looking at it objectively you couldn't make any other assumption. Of course Cotchin and Martin help a whole lot.

It's better to have youth than wins in this day and age.

I'm still a bit stunned that Gibbs turns 24 in March. Feels like he's been around for ages.

True, but based on 2012 he was the 2nd best ruck for the season, which probably pushes Kreuzer to be second ruck/fwd, not the other way.

You overrate him something vicious with Cox, Naitanui, Jacobs and others as good as Maric. Kreuzer towelled him when he wasn't carrying that knee injury. I wouldn't be concerned if we went into round with one with Hammer or Warnock in the ruck. No absolute freak like Naitanui who can jump out of the ground.

 

[Morro]

As a pure ruck, carrying almost the entire ruck duties all year, injured aswell I might ad, he was better than all besides Jacobs. Pretty hard to argue against that.

 

[slashin_velvet]

You guys havent hit too much gold lately with your picks but again that could change in the next 12 months.

Relatively speaking, our gold hits have been equivalent. Most analysts highly rated the players we took with our respective picks. Our injuries last year allowed us to play some young guys and see how they went in the big league.

Weve seen promising signs from McInnes, Bell, Casboult. I dont see that much point in comapring the youngsters, when many of ours have been selected to play in the future, and not have a short term impact.

The average age of Richmond's list is much lower, but the average of players who played in 2012 is only slightly lower.