Collingwood Almanac 2014

[Number 10]

Any Rory Sloane/Luke Parker/wines types in this draft knighta? The classy grunt midfielders... Seriously need one and while we have Freeman I see him more of a Swan type burst player. Possibly Marley for hardness but he lacks the class and poise.

That's why I think we should go for Tom Mitchell if we don't think we could get that type of player in the draft.

 

[TradeDraft]

Any Rory Sloane/Luke Parker/wines types in this draft knighta? The classy grunt midfielders... Seriously need one and while we have Freeman I see him more of a Swan type burst player. Possibly Marley for hardness but he lacks the class and poise.

That's why I think we should go for Tom Mitchell if we don't think we could get that type of player in the draft.

How would you get Mitchell then in a Trade.

No 1st Rounder does hurt our Trading. Though getting a Young Gun in Moore is just as good or even better

 

[Rorzza]

From the out side it looks like O'Rourkes career has tracked a similar path to Broomhead. They are born within a month of each other, O'Rourkes first year was hampered by injury, the second year he has played four games one as a sub for a total of 5 career games at an average of 9 disposals. Broomhead has played 3 games in his career all in 2014 for an average of 7 disposals.

I have watched a couple of replays of O'Rourkes, he is very similar to Broomhead in that when he gets the foot he is very composed and has a high skill set but like Broomy needs to get more of the footy.

If his stocks are dropping due to lack of opportunity then now is the time to have a crack because in a couple of years time he might be off the table.

 

[Number 10]

How would you get Mitchell then in a Trade.

No 1st Rounder does hurt our Trading. Though getting a Young Gun in Moore is just as good or even better

What do they need? With Grundy and Richards almost done I'm sure they would take 1 of keeffe, frost or brown for him.

Btw keeffe will come good. Needed at least 12-18 months after his acl comeback to get back to his best.

 

[Prochard123]

I reckon we shouldn't target anymore defenders right now, young promosing midfielders should be a priority. By bringing higgins, frawley in, we are wasting the talents we have right now. Our defense won't be a problem in a year or 2, when seedsman, keefe and frost are fully developed.

 

[Knightmare]

I mean Mids we have that are taller then 185cm's

185cm+ mids aren't necessary to winning.

Go with Pendlebury/Beams/Swan/Ball/Williams/Broomhead/Sidebottom. There aren't any sub 180cm guys in there. To me a strong and the right balance. Good enough even to win a premiership with if those other pieces were in place - which is more the issue.

To midfield dominant I associate weight more than height with being important from that inside grunt perspective - and Swan/Ball and Williams in a big way can really provide that strong grunt inside and give us that physical edge we lack.

 

[jmac70]

185cm+ mids aren't necessary to winning.

Go with Pendlebury/Beams/Swan/Ball/Williams/Broomhead/Sidebottom. There aren't any sub 180cm guys in there. To me a strong and the right balance. Good enough even to win a premiership with if those other pieces were in place - which is more the issue.

To midfield dominant I associate weight more than height with being important from that inside grunt perspective - and Swan/Ball and Williams in a big way can really provide that strong grunt inside and give us that physical edge we lack.

Hey NM, if the rumours about Broomhead are true what players from Port and Adelaide would you consider?

 

[Knightmare]

Any Rory Sloane/Luke Parker/wines types in this draft knighta? The classy grunt midfielders... Seriously need one and while we have Freeman I see him more of a Swan type burst player. Possibly Marley for hardness but he lacks the class and poise.

That's why I think we should go for Tom Mitchell if we don't think we could get that type of player in the draft.

Dean Gore and Alex Neal-Bullen as inside mids can be real value mids if taken outside the first round. Both have played senior SANFL footy and both can play good footy.

Billy Evans late/rookie draft as more a Josh Kennedy tall, strong bodied mid also has some real scope to develop.

In saying that I think we need some other things more than mids. Good young key position players - particularly a key forward. Speed is needed (wing) and other positions if we find the right guys. A depth ruck.

My reluctance to add any further mids in the most part stems from an optimism about Swan and Ball's ability to produce next year in addition to Broomhead's ability to step into the midfield and William's ability to add further inside grunt.

With Marley why I like him through the midfield so much. He reacts quicker to the ground ball and gets to the ball quicker than anyone else. Just physically bullys his way to the footy first every time. Can drag the ball forward. Also his movement in traffic is terrific with some really nice evasive movement to him. Get say Broomhead and Sidebottom into the midfield and along with Pendlebury, Williams can pretty easily be accommodated in the midfield.

From the out side it looks like O'Rourkes career has tracked a similar path to Broomhead. They are born within a month of each other, O'Rourkes first year was hampered by injury, the second year he has played four games one as a sub for a total of 5 career games at an average of 9 disposals. Broomhead has played 3 games in his career all in 2014 for an average of 7 disposals.

I have watched a couple of replays of O'Rourkes, he is very similar to Broomhead in that when he gets the foot he is very composed and has a high skill set but like Broomy needs to get more of the footy.

If his stocks are dropping due to lack of opportunity then now is the time to have a crack because in a couple of years time he might be off the table.

Broomhead is much more advanced. He's looked like an AFL standard footballer since last year. O'Rourke still is a developing player. He's playing in a lower league (NEAFL is a lower quality league than the VFL) and isn't putting forward the strong and consistent performance Broomhead has.

O'Rourke is no longer see as a guy worth pick two given he's a midfielder unable to establish himself after two seasons but he hasn't done enough to convince me personally that he's a worthwhile.

I reckon we shouldn't target anymore defenders right now, young promosing midfielders should be a priority. By bringing higgins, frawley in, we are wasting the talents we have right now. Our defense won't be a problem in a year or 2, when seedsman, keefe and frost are fully developed.

With defenders I wouldn't pick one early draft but late/rookie I'd consider it. Maxwell is retired. Armstrong and Clarke should both be delisted. Sinclair and Ramsay haven't convinced me they're worthwhile.

Perhaps a Josh Glenn from the SANFL could be a really strong choice 3rd round if available. David Mirra as a rookie perhaps as a VFL recruit. Daniel Butler or Jason Castagna late draft could represent some value.

Our issue down back is we've got too many negating types but not enough rebounders/balanced two way types. Reid if we had an alternative number two key forward could go back to balance our key defence stocks. And Langdon/Seedsman/Scharenberg could do with a further at least good rebounding defender to play amongst that group along with Toovey with Langdon and Scharenberg both in the future likely capable of playing some limited midfield minutes and Seedsman capable while better off a back flank capable on a wing. So that extra general defender who isn't a negating type like that second good key defender who isn't purely negating are the necessary additions.

Our back half is hardly our largest issue. In the immediate we're too young in the ruck and lacking depth. Key forwards we could do with an immediate elite compliment to Cloke. A young franchise key forward. We badly need a linebreaker on a wing. Could do with a crumbing forward with real pace - a Jeff Garlett as an example.

Lots of list needs but first and second round I'd be looking tall first (Moore) and probably an option perhaps on a wing second round or otherwise just the best available.

 

[Knightmare]

Hey NM, if the rumours about Broomhead are true what players from Port and Adelaide would you consider?

Haven't heard any rumours associating Broomhead to Port Adelaide. I definitely wouldn't have him on the market.

You'd take any of: Boak, Ebert, Hartlett, Gray, Wines, Wingard, Polec, Schulz or Westhoff from Port Adelaide for Broomhead, of course not that Port would give any of these guys which would stop negotiations immediately.

A likely trade would be Broomhead for Port's first round pick if a deal was to go down. Would I accept this deal? Absolutely not. Broomhead is in my view a long term player and picks as good as we are picking guys through the draft it's still a lottery. Broomhead is an AFL standard footballer now and in my mind anyway I don't have questions about his ability so I would make it a priority to retain him.

 

[jmac70]

Haven't heard any rumours associating Broomhead to Port Adelaide. I definitely wouldn't have him on the market.

You'd take any of: Boak, Ebert, Hartlett, Gray, Wines, Wingard, Polec, Schulz or Westhoff from Port Adelaide for Broomhead, of course not that Port would give any of these guys which would stop negotiations immediately.

A likely trade would be Broomhead for Port's first round pick if a deal was to go down. Would I accept this deal? Absolutely not. Broomhead is in my view a long term player and picks as good as we are picking guys through the draft it's still a lottery. Broomhead is an AFL standard footballer now and in my mind anyway I don't have questions about his ability so I would make it a priority to retain him.

Cheers NM. I certainly hope the rumours are BS. He should play out the rest of the year. Whilst I have your attention what is your take on Kennedy being the sub. Is Bucks too cautious?

 

[TradeDraft]

Broomhead is much more advanced. He's looked like an AFL standard footballer since last year. O'Rourke still is a developing player. He's playing in a lower league (NEAFL is a lower quality league than the VFL) and isn't putting forward the strong and consistent performance Broomhead has.

O'Rourke is no longer see as a guy worth pick two given he's a midfielder unable to establish himself after two seasons but he hasn't done enough to convince me personally that he's a worthwhile

Then could we get O’Rourke for next to nothing

 

[Knightmare]

Cheers NM. I certainly hope the rumours are BS. He should play out the rest of the year. Whilst I have your attention what is your take on Kennedy being the sub. Is Bucks too cautious?

I'm not huge on Kennedy but I don't see the benefit of persisting with him specifically as a sub.

He's a natural sub as a small who can inject some energy into games but I'd prefer to see the sub role shared.

He's not developing as a sub so unless it's a veteran - say Giansiracusa who you want to manage I'm pro sharing the sub vest.

 

[Knightmare]

Then could we get O’Rourke for next to nothing

He was a recent pick 2 so no.

It's just the value proposition in my mind isn't yet at the level for O'Rourke to be a worthwhile guy to target.

 

[jmac70]

I'm not huge on Kennedy but I don't see the benefit of persisting with him specifically as a sub.

He's a natural sub as a small who can inject some energy into games but I'd prefer to see the sub role shared.

He's not developing as a sub so unless it's a veteran - say Giansiracusa who you want to manage I'm pro sharing the sub vest.

I'm interested in your take on Kennedy. Whilst small he seems to have a bit of pace and good skills. Surely an option as a crumbing forward/mid?

 

[TradeDraft]

He was a recent pick 2 so no.

It's just the value proposition in my mind isn't yet at the level for O'Rourke to be a worthwhile guy to target.

Well, It be interesting what happens with him.

You don’t rate him but does not mean that People at Collingwood does not.

I just have not seen enough to make a Comment on him

 

[Rorzza]

Yeah Broomy is going to be a ripper,He only had 15 disposals on the week end but I can not think of one disposal he did not hit the target or give our leading forward a chance.

 

[Robroy22]

Yeah Broomy is going to be a ripper,He only had 15 disposals on the week end but I can not think of one disposal he did not hit the target or give our leading forward a chance.

Agree....Broomhead showed the disposal we've all wanted to see. The forwards must have been shocked leading at a bloke who could hit them lace out, cos they dropped at least 4 sitters from him. I loved his run down the outer wing when he just pinned his ears back and took blokes on. Seedy tries to do the same thing but hasn't got the left side to get himself out of trouble. Broomy is the real deal....get out the big coin pies.

 

[Knightmare]

I'm interested in your take on Kennedy. Whilst small he seems to have a bit of pace and good skills. Surely an option as a crumbing forward/mid?

With Kennedy I'm struggling to see a position for him at AFL level.

Through the midfield there are others I'd play first - Pendlebury, Beams, M.Williams, Swan, Ball, Broomhead, Sidebottom and Macaffer to tag but not starting at centre bounces. I also favour K.Martin and see better scope to improve in Freeman and Adams.
Through the midfield his footskills lack consistency and he lacks the ability to find the outside ball as an inside only type who likely remains that way as Blair has. The contested side of his game which is the better aspect of what he does is only average, he's by VFL standards a very good contested ball winner and his numbers are excellent at the level because of the contested gamestyle the VFL rules allow with substantially more stoppages than at AFL level but only average inside game by AFL standards which isn't good enough when you're an inside only type. He's got that explosive burst of pace which is a real point of difference from the stoppages but Freeman does that better.

Up forward with Kennedy I don't see him as being a real fit either. He's quick but he doesn't have front half talent. He could be a pretty good pressure forward and can take on the game with his pace with ball in hand but up forward I wouldn't back him to find enough, mark enough of it, he's while capable not a natural crumber, he's not a playmaker who finds targets inside 50 and for me most importantly hit the scoreboard enough to be relevant as an option up forward.
As options I'd be playing Elliott, K.Martin, Fasolo, Broomhead, Goldsack, Karnezis. Sidebottom and others can also rotate forward so like with the midfield there is more than enough ahead of him. If we could I'd add Jeff Garlett from Carlton to inject the pace and tackling to the front half as a guy who unlike Kennedy/Blair has real front half talent as a guy who can light it up and hit the scoreboard in a big way.

On his skills since you mentioned it as a strength. He can penetrate by foot and kick it 55m and but there is still some inconsistency issues and I'd like to see him find better and more meaningful targets around the ground more often by foot. But pace he definitely has and it's the one thing other than his pretty good contested ball winning I like with Ben as he can accelerate away from congestion which is always a talent you welcome. Just the rest of it there isn't quite enough for me and with his mild development these past four seasons (including pre-Collingwood) not necessarily because he's not working but he's just a guy where what you see is what you get and he'll continue to remain much that same player as someone who developed and knew his body pretty much right away from 16/17 years of age.

 

[jmac70]

With Kennedy I'm struggling to see a position for him at AFL level.

Through the midfield there are others I'd play first - Pendlebury, Beams, M.Williams, Swan, Ball, Broomhead, Sidebottom and Macaffer to tag but not starting at centre bounces. I also favour K.Martin and see better scope to improve in Freeman and Adams.
Through the midfield his footskills lack consistency and he lacks the ability to find the outside ball as an inside only type who likely remains that way as Blair has. The contested side of his game which is the better aspect of what he does is only average, he's by VFL standards a very good contested ball winner and his numbers are excellent at the level because of the contested gamestyle the VFL rules allow with substantially more stoppages than at AFL level but only average inside game by AFL standards which isn't good enough when you're an inside only type. He's got that explosive burst of pace which is a real point of difference from the stoppages but Freeman does that better.

Up forward with Kennedy I don't see him as being a real fit either. He's quick but he doesn't have front half talent. He could be a pretty good pressure forward and can take on the game with his pace with ball in hand but up forward I wouldn't back him to find enough, mark enough of it, he's while capable not a natural crumber, he's not a playmaker who finds targets inside 50 and for me most importantly hit the scoreboard enough to be relevant as an option up forward.
As options I'd be playing Elliott, K.Martin, Fasolo, Broomhead, Goldsack, Karnezis. Sidebottom and others can also rotate forward so like with the midfield there is more than enough ahead of him. If we could I'd add Jeff Garlett from Carlton to inject the pace and tackling to the front half as a guy who unlike Kennedy/Blair has real front half talent as a guy who can light it up and hit the scoreboard in a big way.

On his skills since you mentioned it as a strength. He can penetrate by foot and kick it 55m and but there is still some inconsistency issues and I'd like to see him find better and more meaningful targets around the ground more often by foot. But pace he definitely has and it's the one thing other than his pretty good contested ball winning I like with Ben as he can accelerate away from congestion which is always a talent you welcome. Just the rest of it there isn't quite enough for me and with his mild development these past four seasons (including pre-Collingwood) not necessarily because he's not working but he's just a guy where what you see is what you get and he'll continue to remain much that same player as someone who developed and knew his body pretty much right away from 16/17 years of age.

Thanks for that NM. I would like to see Bucks give him a full run for the rest of the year so we can see what he is capable of.

 

[Knightmare]

Thanks for that NM. I would like to see Bucks give him a full run for the rest of the year so we can see what he is capable of.

Ben definitely needs full games and also that exposure at senior AFL level.

The issue with the VFL from a development perspective. He's not improving there. It's so inside with all the stoppages and poor, slow ball movement and it hasn't given him that opportunity to improve his outside game. This past month I would have had no issue as hard as I am in my evaluation on Ben for him to have received full games to give him a taste for what he needs to improve given the poor form and injuries of others.

 

[Rorzza]

I know our season is not technically over but it is trending downwards like it just dropped of a cliff, it would be nice with five games to go to get a look at the kids. Broomhead, Martin, Kennedy, Adams, Langdon and Grundy should be given multiple full game opportunities before they go back to the VFL for the final series.

I do hope we make the AFL finals but It might be wishful thinking.

 

[Prochard123]

Really like Adam traelor, I think he is one of the young inside midfielders along with fyfe and libba. What do you think he will cost next year? Maybe brown and our first rounder assuming we finish around 8th?

 

[Knightmare]

I know our season is not technically over but it is trending downwards like it just dropped of a cliff, it would be nice with five games to go to get a look at the kids. Broomhead, Martin, Kennedy, Adams, Langdon and Grundy should be given multiple full game opportunities before they go back to the VFL for the final series.

I do hope we make the AFL finals but It might be wishful thinking.

Finals is against the odds.

Possible still, but 75/25 we're missing finals.

GWS, Bris are games you'd expect to win.

WCE + Port Adelaide are the must wins to have any chance and even those aren't guaranteed with our recent form.

 

[Knightmare]

Really like Adam traelor, I think he is one of the young inside midfielders along with fyfe and libba. What do you think he will cost next year? Maybe brown and our first rounder assuming we finish around 8th?

Treloar is a gun midfielder. Has the opportunity to become a top 10 midfielder in the game.

Pick 1 wouldn't get Treloar in this draft with no clear top pick.

Treloar even in the unexpected scenario he requests a trade to a Victorian club you'd expect would require Beams as a minimum to acquire. So fair to say it's not happening.

Brown and our first round pick would probably be enough to get us either of Jon O'Rourke or Toby Greene but a big difference between those guys and Treloar. It's apples and oranges.

 

[Prochard123]

Treloar is a gun midfielder. Has the opportunity to become a top 10 midfielder in the game.

Pick 1 wouldn't get Treloar in this draft with no clear top pick.

Treloar even in the unexpected scenario he requests a trade to a Victorian club you'd expect would require Beams as a minimum to acquire. So fair to say it's not happening.

Brown and our first round pick would probably be enough to get us either of Jon O'Rourke or Toby Greene but a big difference between those guys and Treloar. It's apples and oranges.

Maybe as a free agent next year if he wants to return home? If that's the case, how would you be willing to pay? Personally I would say 550-600k