Collingwood Almanac 2014

[MagpieBat]

Why would a Forward have to go thru the Midfield?

He played well in the U-18 Champs and for Gippy Power.

I am interested how he goes anyway

Because 189cm might be enough to dominate as an old-fashioned deep forward in the TAC Cup, but it won't cut it in the big league. If he's to succeed at his height in the AFL, he needs to be able to make the jump, especially with the forward line Sydney have going for them...

 

[Knightmare]

Why would a Forward have to go thru the Midfield?

He played well in the U-18 Champs and for Gippy Power.

I am interested how he goes anyway

We haven't seen a dominant 189cm key forward since Jason Dunstall. And key defenders are much better today than they were 20 years ago.

It's useful if sub 190cm forwards can go through the midfield but as a minimum they need to be able to as Gunston can play as a 3rd tall or push up the ground as required.

 

[rustyg70]

Knightmare
Out of curiosity, do you see any of our smaller forward type players (which we have an abundance of) being able to be transformed into a Leon Davis type half back flanker??

 

[Knightmare]

Knightmare
Out of curiosity, do you see any of our smaller forward type players (which we have an abundance of) being able to be transformed into a Leon Davis type half back flanker??

Fasolo definitely can with his 1v1 ability and damaging footskills.

Elliott can when required as he's shown this year for periods earlier in the season pushing back and has that 1v1 ability to do it.

Broomhead if required could play off a back flank as a player with the versatility to play midfield, forward or back. He's a capable 1v1 player and has the class.

Mooney should be able to with his freak athleticism but failed to make the transition to the back half.

 

[mike123]

We haven't seen a dominant 189cm key forward since Jason Dunstall. And key defenders are much better today than they were 20 years ago.

It's useful if sub 190cm forwards can go through the midfield but as a minimum they need to be able to as Gunston can play as a 3rd tall or push up the ground as required.

Can't Karnesis play this role?

Althoough he is over 190cm

 

[Knightmare]

Can't Karnesis play this role?

Althoough he is over 190cm

Karnezis perhaps but his footskills while reasonable aren't quite what I'd be looking for in the back half. His marking and ability to accumulate would be his best traits down back. 1v1 would probably be fine.

Down back I generally quite like playing tall. Geelong did it so well during their run with that 2007-2013 group with so many tall defenders and no smalls with Josh Hunt their smallest at 185cm but even he was 100kg. As long as they all have the athletic traits to handle the smalls and the class rebounding which that Geelong back half did it's doable. They're historically so incredible because they're the tallest, heaviest and classiest back half we've ever seen.

If there is in that core group down back something missing it's probably that really high class player. Scharenberg is the closest thing to that but you'd love Corey Enright alongside Scharenberg, Toovey, Langdon and Seedsman then alongside Frost a Ben Reid for that optimal back half balance.

 

[MeisterBot]

Karnezis perhaps but his footskills while reasonable aren't quite what I'd be looking for in the back half. His marking and ability to accumulate would be his best traits down back. 1v1 would probably be fine.

Down back I generally quite like playing tall. Geelong did it so well during their run with that 2007-2013 group with so many tall defenders and no smalls with Josh Hunt their smallest at 185cm but even he was 100kg. As long as they all have the athletic traits to handle the smalls and the class rebounding which that Geelong back half did it's doable. They're historically so incredible because they're the tallest, heaviest and classiest back half we've ever seen.

If there is in that core group down back something missing it's probably that really high class player. Scharenberg is the closest thing to that but you'd love Corey Enright alongside Scharenberg, Toovey, Langdon and Seedsman then alongside Frost a Ben Reid for that optimal back half balance.

Think he was referring to Karnezis as a third tall forward and moving up onto the wing or midfield at times like Gunston does for Hawthorn. Which is how I'd utilise him. HFF/Mid.

 

[TradeDraft]

Because 189cm might be enough to dominate as an old-fashioned deep forward in the TAC Cup, but it won't cut it in the big league. If he's to succeed at his height in the AFL, he needs to be able to make the jump, especially with the forward line Sydney have going for them...

Surprised then he is still on the Swans Lists still then?

I agree Karnezis is a better option then Membery

 

[TradeDraft]

Mooney should be able to with his freak athleticism but failed to make the transition to the back half.

I say Mooney be heading back to Ireland with Clarke after the Season.

Both been Majorly Underwhelming

 

[TradeDraft]

Karnezis perhaps but his footskills while reasonable aren't quite what I'd be looking for in the back half. His marking and ability to accumulate would be his best traits down back. 1v1 would probably be fine.

Down back I generally quite like playing tall. Geelong did it so well during their run with that 2007-2013 group with so many tall defenders and no smalls with Josh Hunt their smallest at 185cm but even he was 100kg. As long as they all have the athletic traits to handle the smalls and the class rebounding which that Geelong back half did it's doable. They're historically so incredible because they're the tallest, heaviest and classiest back half we've ever seen.

If there is in that core group down back something missing it's probably that really high class player. Scharenberg is the closest thing to that but you'd love Corey Enright alongside Scharenberg, Toovey, Langdon and Seedsman then alongside Frost a Ben Reid for that optimal back half balance.

Highly Doubt Enright would leave the Cats though

 

[Knightmare]

Think he was referring to Karnezis as a third tall forward and moving up onto the wing or midfield at times like Gunston does for Hawthorn. Which is how I'd utilise him. HFF/Mid.

Apologies. Not paying attention. That's what happens when also watching the footy while on here.

Karnezis could play a Gunston type role and has closer to goal playing tall hit the scoreboard at VFL level.

Best role? Probably HFF/Wing but he can also play deep and if we're lacking a marking target closer to goal it's something he definitely can do.

Highly Doubt Enright would leave the Cats though

I'm not suggesting Enright would leave Geelong. Just if you had someone who could play his position/role like him that's what you'd love to complete that back half.

 

[TradeDraft]

'm not suggesting Enright would leave Geelong. Just if you had someone who could play his position/role like him that's what you'd love to complete that back half.

Could that someone be Langdon or Schararnberg?

 

[Knightmare]

Could that someone be Langdon or Schararnberg?

I'd be looking in addition to Langdon/Scharenberg/Seedsman to find that one further really elite general defender to compliment that group and Toovey with Langdon and Scharenberg projected long term to be part time midfielders and Seedsman probably also needed at times to push up the field onto a wing.

 

[TradeDraft]

Hyperthatical:

If the Rumors are True and Beams goes to the Lions and we got there number 1 Pick(Pick 5) at the moment.

Who would you look to Draft?

 

[Knightmare]

Hyperthatical:

If the Rumors are True and Beams goes to the Lions and we got there number 1 Pick(Pick 5) at the moment.

Who would you look to Draft?

A trade for pick 1 wouldn't be agree to.

But if we had a top pick McCartin and Wright would be the natural draft targets. If not available whoever is next highest on the draft board. Wright would be entirely possible with a top 5 pick as he's generally rated behind McCartin and Petracca and is considered as being among that 3-5 group so he'd be my hope if we had that Brisbane pick.

 

[TradeDraft]

A trade for pick 1 wouldn't be agree to.

But if we had a top pick McCartin and Wright would be the natural draft targets. If not available whoever is next highest on the draft board. Wright would be entirely possible with a top 5 pick as he's generally rated behind McCartin and Petracca and is considered as being among that 3-5 group so he'd be my hope if we had that Brisbane pick.

Why would we not trade for Pick 1 IF Beams asked to be Traded?

 

[Knightmare]

Why would we not trade for Pick 1 IF Beams asked to be Traded?

Beams is worth more than pick one.

You wouldn't pick him ahead of: Gibbs? Kreuzer? Watts? Scully? Swallow? Patton? Whitfield? Boyd?

If you go through the history of the top overall pick. Beams is better than the majority of those guys. And this year there isn't even a clear pick one and a top picks don't project to be as good as Beams in my view.

If Beams wanted to go to a QLD club I'd ask Gold Coast for Tom Lynch, Trent McKenzie and one of their first round picks as a minimum.

If Brisbane wanted Beams I'd be asking for Pearce Hanley, Daniel Rich and their second round pick as a minimum.

Remember Beams is a Best and Fairest winner (ahead of Pendlebury/Cloke). All Australian player and probably will be again this year. He's still young only turning 25 next season and on most teams would be the number one midfielder.

But on whether Beams actually wants to go anywhere I have my doubts until there is some more serious speculation. He enjoys playing for Nathan and enjoys playing with this group from everything I understand and is close friends with many of his team mates. So I'm not seeing him going anywhere.

 

[TradeDraft]

Beams is worth more than pick one.

You wouldn't pick him ahead of: Gibbs? Kreuzer? Watts? Scully? Swallow? Patton? Whitfield? Boyd?

If you go through the history of the top overall pick. Beams is better than the majority of those guys. And this year there isn't even a clear pick one and a top picks don't project to be as good as Beams in my view.

If Beams wanted to go to a QLD club I'd ask Gold Coast for Tom Lynch, Trent McKenzie and one of their first round picks as a minimum.

If Brisbane wanted Beams I'd be asking for Pearce Hanley, Daniel Rich and their second round pick as a minimum.

Remember Beams is a Best and Fairest winner (ahead of Pendlebury/Cloke). All Australian player and probably will be again this year. He's still young only turning 25 next season and on most teams would be the number one midfielder.

But on whether Beams actually wants to go anywhere I have my doubts until there is some more serious speculation. He enjoys playing for Nathan and enjoys playing with this group from everything I understand and is close friends with many of his team mates. So I'm not seeing him going anywhere.

I highly doubt that he wants to Leave. Just think it’s BigFooty Talk.

I look at those Trades and I don’t think either team would do that Trade.

Lions would not Trade Rich or Hanley.

Suns Might trade McKenzie and Lynch(Only If he wanted to Leave) but I find it hard to see that Happening.

 

[Knightmare]

I highly doubt that he wants to Leave. Just think it’s BigFooty Talk.

I look at those Trades and I don’t think either team would do that Trade.

Lions would not Trade Rich or Hanley.

Suns Might trade McKenzie and Lynch(Only If he wanted to Leave) but I find it hard to see that Happening.

I think you're right.

But that's what it would take.

It's like when Chris Judd announced he wanted to come to Victoria. You have to give up some big time pieces to make it happen and these are the big time pieces Collingwood would be asking for given our list needs.

 

[TradeDraft]

I think you're right.

But that's what it would take.

It's like when Chris Judd announced he wanted to come to Victoria. You have to give up some big time pieces to make it happen and these are the big time pieces Collingwood would be asking for given our list needs.

True but Judd could not leave the Eagles thru Free Agency that Beams could do after 2015 Season

 

[Knightmare]

True but Judd could not leave the Eagles thru Free Agency that Beams could do after 2015 Season

You are right. The climate is different and Beams can always get home if he wants to.

It would be down to the highest bidder and with two bidders motivated to buy to get better someone would likely put forward a strong bid - likely Gold Coast to make it happen.

 

[TradeDraft]

You are right. The climate is different and Beams can always get home if he wants to.

It would be down to the highest bidder and with two bidders motivated to buy to get better someone would likely put forward a strong bid - likely Gold Coast to make it happen.

I agree Suns would have more to give then the Lions

 

[wednesdaywarrior]

Well Knighta,

It's that time of year again when I look to make my tiny contribution to the magnificent Knightmare Draft Analysis Machine (my favourite segment of BF by the way)

I will be off to the G this Friday to watch the St Pats boys attempt to win their fifth straight Herald Sun Shield, if they win it will break Assumptions long held record. St Pats now have 20 AFL players in the system, including Petrie, Nathan Brown, Clinton young, Brad Crouch and Nick Suban. This year the name being thrown up is Liam Duggan. Coach has him high in the order - I notice you have him just outside your top 20.

I'll be speaking to Liam and another draft hopeful Dan Butler before this weeks game for an article on the side. I'll keep you informed as to how they play and whether they should be on our radar. I know that the mighty KM Machine welcomes all data, no matter how small. So I promise to give you a precise report.

PS being a little tongue in cheek as always, love your work Knighta.

 

[DaVe86]

KM, apologies if you've already discussed...but where do you stand with orourke from GWS.

Has been ordinary to date but just had a decent first qtr v Richmond.

Skills are good, but I wonder if we would recruit another his size.

In all his draft videos he mentioned how he wanted to stay in vic so I'm thinking home sickness could have a fair bit to do with his form

 

[Knightmare]

Well Knighta,

It's that time of year again when I look to make my tiny contribution to the magnificent Knightmare Draft Analysis Machine (my favourite segment of BF by the way)

I will be off to the G this Friday to watch the St Pats boys attempt to win their fifth straight Herald Sun Shield, if they win it will break Assumptions long held record. St Pats now have 20 AFL players in the system, including Petrie, Nathan Brown, Clinton young, Brad Crouch and Nick Suban. This year the name being thrown up is Liam Duggan. Coach has him high in the order - I notice you have him just outside your top 20.

I'll be speaking to Liam and another draft hopeful Dan Butler before this weeks game for an article on the side. I'll keep you informed as to how they play and whether they should be on our radar. I know that the mighty KM Machine welcomes all data, no matter how small. So I promise to give you a precise report.

PS being a little tongue in cheek as always, love your work Knighta.

Liam Duggan and Dan Butler are both good ones and both very much on my radar and both even as potential selections for the Pies.

Duggan second round I'd love to see slip through to our pick, he's a good list fit and good value there. He's a poor man's Luke McDonald and has that similar footskills, pace and ability if required to go through the midfield or even forward but looks best suited down back as a playmaker. Anywhere in the 20-30 range I'd be happy to select Duggan. A few others I like slightly more and see as more sure things but

With Butler watch for his pace, agility and ability to take on the game. He's got some versatility and also can play back, forward or wing. But likewise he's also got something. Just he's more a late draft selection.

KM, apologies if you've already discussed...but where do you stand with orourke from GWS.

Has been ordinary to date but just had a decent first qtr v Richmond.

Skills are good, but I wonder if we would recruit another his size.

In all his draft videos he mentioned how he wanted to stay in vic so I'm thinking home sickness could have a fair bit to do with his form

O'Rourke is an interesting one and continues to come up. I'm also watching GWS v Richmond at the moment. O'Rourke seems to be taking Cotchin and while he found a bit of it early was really conceding it to Cotchin. It seems to be a move for his education presumably.

The things O'Rourke has is some real top end speed and explosion but then also the footskills. He's a good height also. So there are bits that suggest some scope to improve.

Do I want him at Collingwood? While I would like to see us add further pace and footskills he's not someone I'd target. He's still not playing to an AFL standard. He's not finding enough of the footy or having an impact. He's not performing consistently and even in the NEAFL isn't performing consistently. Perhaps he becomes AFL standard with time but I'm not yet even seeing a position where he looks best at this point. Inside he's not a great contested ball winner and struggles to find enough of it to be relevant. Outside he similarly struggles to find enough of it to be relevant just not knowing where to run. Perhaps he could be developed into a running backman but he'd need to develop his 1v1 game. But our Nathan Freeman is probably a better version, perhaps not as tall but more powerful and stronger inside with otherwise the ability to do the same things.

If we want someone else who plays a similar game to O'Rourke I'd look at Connor Menadue (Western Jets) in the draft if he's available late draft. He's got largely the same game. Light bodied but similar height, explosive pace, can at times do damage by foot and has versatility to play back, forward or midfield. Just again like O'Rourke I'm still make up my mind whether he's someone who can find a position where he can take the game by storm and become a clear AFL quality footballer.