News Financial Results (moved discussion on TPP/veterans/rookies from post #107)

[Saint Luke]

There are a few drama queens in here. It really isn't the end of the world. I promise.

Mark my words, nothing punitive will come about in the short term, and the long term is well sorted. If Melbourne can turn around a 2 million deficit within a year, then so can any club. Particularly for a club that will surely receive equalization benefits and has already signed two new sponsors for the season.

Doom and gloom isn't really necessary.

 

[CALL ME SNAKE]

even norf have debt less than ours at around 2m. we are failing badly

If North spent the next 2 yrs on the bottom they would be just as bad if not worse than us..
The 'smaller' Victorian clubs all post terrible losses when they are on the wrong end of the ladder.
Then you come good again for 5 to 10 yrs, memberships go through the roof, you pay off most of your debt just in time to slip down the ladder and start bleeding money again.
Welcome to the world of the smaller clubs. Thats just how its been for decades.
Fitzroy wont happen again. The AFL have said many times its dedicated to working out ways to help clubs out.
If not, Melb wouldve been gone 4 yrs ago.
So even though i totally agree that we are in financial strife. The AFL has our back 100% and are working hard to help us. Not putting pressure on us to relocate or disband.
Be concerned peeps but dont panic .

And Melbourne made a Profit???????

I have my doubts

 

[STK2020]

Unfortunately we are suffering on several fronts .
1 AFL is on the nose with supporters
2 s**t stadium deal
3 low membership numbers
4 contract pay outs
Other teams having massive money probs too .
We as Saints fans need to dig in , sign up family & friends as members and show support , trends will change , success flows quickly to many areas of a footy club .
Stay strong and united .

 

[Sunshine Saint]

Unfortunately we are suffering on several fronts .
1 AFL is on the nose with supporters
2 s**t stadium deal
3 low membership numbers
4 contract pay outs
Other teams having massive money probs too .
We as Saints fans need to dig in , sign up family & friends as members and show support , trends will change , success flows quickly to many areas of a footy club .
Stay strong and united .

Good thought for a club membership promotion having members compete to sign up new members. The club is already having a staff competition to see who can sign up the most new members, why shouldn't this be expanded and open it up to all members. Give experience prizes, for three members who recruit the highest number of new members, i.e. training day experience, match day experience etc. Cost the club nothing, but has potential to bring new members into the club, from those who are the most passionate about the club, their existing members.

 

[Persevering Saint]

Good thought for a club membership promotion having members compete to sign up new members. The club is already having a staff competition to see who can sign up the most new members, why shouldn't this be expanded and open it up to all members. Give experience prizes, for three members who recruit the highest number of new members, i.e. training day experience, match day experience etc. Cost the club nothing, but has potential to bring new members into the club, from those who are the most passionate about the club, their existing members.

Isn't that a little, uh...

Still, where there's a will, there's...

 

[Sunshine Saint]

Percy its called referrals and is a successful ingredient of many businesses.

Always amuses me that people call on the club to do more, but baulk at any suggestion that they could do something extra to contribute. Referring potential sponsors, isn't something that everyone can do, but as suggested earlier by ronnysnodgrass in the New Sponsor thread, where he is taking the initiative to follow up on this with a potential sponsor and see if he can create an interest. If the interest is there, he can then refer this to the club as a possible sponsor. Proactive, costs nothing and is a potentially very positive contribution to the club.

This is a great idea, and I may actually be able to help here, been doing a lot of work with the VOD platforms including netflix, will see if i can float the idea with their team (who knows it might interest them)

 

[felsty]

Didnt know where to put this so thought I would chuck it in here. We are the only club to have not put players on the veterans list despite having a number of players eligible.

The reason behind this?

The fact that we dont need to because our TPP are so low!

Read more here http://m.afl.com.au/news/2014-12-08/the-veterans-list

 

[maanco]

Didnt know where to put this so thought I would chuck it in here. We are the only club to have not put players on the veterans list despite having a number of players eligible.

The reason behind this?

The fact that we dont need to because our TPP are so low!

Read more here http://m.afl.com.au/news/2014-12-08/the-veterans-list

I would imagine that we would be doing this to meet the required 95% of our Salary. This would also allow us to spend more money on marketing ect. or reduce our total spending, to reduce our debt. Seems like Pelcan and Bains have put the club in the best postion they possibly can with there roles.

 

[Nutsngum]

I dont think listing veterans impacts the ability to play rookies at all?

 

[Sir Skid]

I would imagine that we would be doing this to meet the required 95% of our Salary. This would also allow us to spend more money on marketing ect. or reduce our total spending, to reduce our debt. Seems like Pelcan and Bains have put the club in the best postion they possibly can with there roles.

Why wouldn't we nominate our veterans and just pay more forward contracts for others to make further space in 2016.

 

[Highlander35]

Used to be that the veterans list was an actual thing, and having no veterans on it meant you could promote 2 rookies to play instead. (So that you would always have a playable list of 40, something like that). Now the veterans list is just excluding 10% of their total contract value from the Salary cap.

 

[Defacto]

Why wouldn't we nominate our veterans and just pay more forward contracts for others to make further space in 2016.

Because we probably want to pay the bare minimum tpp given our financial situation

 

[Sir Skid]

Because we probably want to pay the bare minimum tpp given our financial situation

Expect you are right Defacto but even say 200k fwd payment would be beneficial when it comes to 2016 FA.
If we don't attack FA we'll end up with FA..

 

[Mindtraveller]

We've probably brought forward a few contracts this year.

Since we have no veterans, does this mean we can promote a rookie at any time?

 

[Persevering Saint]

We've probably brought forward a few contracts this year.

Since we have no veterans, does this mean we can promote a rookie at any time?

 

[mighty sainters]

Why wouldn't we nominate our veterans and just pay more forward contracts for others to make further space in 2016.

We still have to pay them somehow, and at the moment the money would be better off put into the club in other ways e.g getting us closer towards a stable financial situation long term

 

[felsty]

We've probably brought forward a few contracts this year.

Since we have no veterans, does this mean we can promote a rookie at any time?

think this used to be be the case but not anymore.

 

[CursingFijian]

'Used to be that the veterans list was an actual thing, and having no veterans on it meant you could promote 2 rookies to play instead. (So that you would always have a playable list of 40, something like that). Now the veterans list is just excluding 10% of their total contract value from the Salary cap.'

List maintenance

Each club is allowed to maintain a list of up to six eligible Category A rookies and three Category B rookies. Up to three rookies can be retained, with the player's permission for a second or third season,[2] with the others having to be either delisted or elevated to the primary list at the time of the National Draft. Only half of the salary paid by a club to players on the rookie list counts towards the league's salary cap.


Generally speaking, a rookie-listed player cannot be selected to play in the senior AFL competition, and must play in state-level affiliated teams, except in two circumstances:

• At the start of a season, a club can nominate up to two veterans from its senior list for salary cap reasons; if a team does not have a full quota of veterans, it can make up the balance by nominating rookies to be eligible for senior selection. These players are known as nominated rookies.
• If a senior-listed player is moved onto the long-term injury list, a rookie-listed player can be temporarily elevated in his place, becoming eligible for senior selection, while the senior player remains injured.

There are usually plenty of opportunities to enact one of these rules, so rookie-listed players who are playing well enough for senior selection are seldom deprived of the opportunity by list management constraints.

Can Wikipedia be trusted?

 

[saintbatty]

'Used to be that the veterans list was an actual thing, and having no veterans on it meant you could promote 2 rookies to play instead. (So that you would always have a playable list of 40, something like that). Now the veterans list is just excluding 10% of their total contract value from the Salary cap.'

List maintenance

Each club is allowed to maintain a list of up to six eligible Category A rookies and three Category B rookies. Up to three rookies can be retained, with the player's permission for a second or third season,[2] with the others having to be either delisted or elevated to the primary list at the time of the National Draft. Only half of the salary paid by a club to players on the rookie list counts towards the league's salary cap.


Generally speaking, a rookie-listed player cannot be selected to play in the senior AFL competition, and must play in state-level affiliated teams, except in two circumstances:

• At the start of a season, a club can nominate up to two veterans from its senior list for salary cap reasons; if a team does not have a full quota of veterans, it can make up the balance by nominating rookies to be eligible for senior selection. These players are known as nominated rookies.
• If a senior-listed player is moved onto the long-term injury list, a rookie-listed player can be temporarily elevated in his place, becoming eligible for senior selection, while the senior player remains injured.

There are usually plenty of opportunities to enact one of these rules, so rookie-listed players who are playing well enough for senior selection are seldom deprived of the opportunity by list management constraints.

Can Wikipedia be trusted?

This is out of date. That's the old rules for veterans. Now there is no limit on the number of veterans (for example, Fremantle has 7!) - every player of 10 years service to the club can be listed as a veteran and $113k of their salary is outside the cap.

 

[Squizz]

"For Total Player Payment purposes, an amount equivalent to 1.229% of the Total Player Payment Limit in each year for each Veteran nominated in accordance with Rule 25.3(c) shall be excluded from Total Player Payments."

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-12-08/the-veterans-list

Clubs are then able to pay a fixed amount per veteran – $118,380 in 2014 – outside the salary cap.

St Kilda has chosen not to list any of its eligible veterans, including captain Nick Riewoldt, on the veterans list as its total player payments do not require it. Clubs are required to pay at least 95 per cent of the salary cap.

 

[Kildonan]

VETERANS’ RULES

Veterans’ Allowance

The previous Veterans’ List allowance has been replaced with clubs now granted a salary cap allowance for players with 10 completed years or more with the club.

There is no longer an age requirement of 30 years.

The amount of the allowance has been calculated as a fixed percentage of Total Player Payments (TPP) per player based on the average amount of football payments excluded from the TPP for players on the Veterans’ List for seasons 2007-09, divided by the average number of players with 10 or more years’ service at one club during that period.

The fixed percentage has been set at 1.229 per cent and the allowance per player in 2013 is $112,320.



Veterans’ Transition

The new Veterans’ Rule started on November 1, 2012.

For TPP purposes, a club can continue operating under the old Veterans’ Rule if the club has a player who qualifies as a veteran during the term of his current contract and whose current contract exists before November 1, 2011.

When a club no longer has a relevant veteran player on its list, or if a club decides by notifying the AFL, the club will change to the new Veterans’ Rule.

A club cannot operate under both rules at once and when a club has changed to the new Veterans’ Rule, they will move permanently to that rule.

 

[Kildonan]

Rookie players

ROOKIE LIST

In 1997, the AFL introduced the Rookie List which is now recognised as one of the key list management tools available to clubs.

Over time, the size of the Rookie List and qualification criteria have been amended to allow clubs more flexibility in the way players can enter the AFL competition. It has created opportunities for players and encourages the development and recruitment of players from outside normal player pathways while the dropping of the maximum age qualification has encouraged clubs to also draft mature-age players.

With the entry of the Gold Coast Suns and GWS Giants into the AFL, clubs were permitted to have a minimum of four and up to eight players on their rookie list but starting from 2013 the maximum will be reduced to six. These six rookies are now classified as Category A rookies.

In addition to these six rookie-listed players, each club can include up to three additional players (now referred to as Category B rookies) on its Rookie List provided the player either:

• has not registered in an Australian Football competition for three years immediately before inclusion on the Rookie List;
• is an international player, meaning he is not an Australian citizen and has not lived in Australia for a substantial period;
• is a former NSW Scholarship player with that club;
• is a former International Scholarship player with that club;
• is a rookie Zone Selection for clubs based in NSW or Queensland.



IRISH ROOKIE PRE-SELECTION

Irish players can be signed directly to a club’s Rookie List under the International Player Rule and do not have to go through the draft. Previously, Irish players could not be listed as Category B rookies but took a spot on the main Rookie List.

Clubs can now list one Irish player as a Category B rookie but for each additional Irish player rookie listed, that player will be deemed to be a Category A rookie and the club will forfeit its last selection in the Rookie Draft for each additional player listed.



FATHER-SON – ROOKIE PRE-SELECTION

The Father-Son Rule previously applied to players selected at the National Draft. Under the rule, other AFL clubs can bid for eligible players who have been nominated under the Father-Son Rule by an eligible club. The nominating club can select the eligible player by forfeiting its next available pick in the draft if a bid has been made by another club. If there is no bid from another club, the nominating club forfeits its last pick in the National Draft.

A club can pre-select an eligible player as a Category A rookie between the Pre-Season and Rookie Drafts (with the player’s consent) provided the player had nominated for but was not selected by another club at either the National or Pre-Season Drafts. In that case, the relevant club would forfeit its last available selection in the Rookie Draft to take the player.



ACADEMY PLAYERS – ROOKIE PRE-SELECTION

Like father-son players, under the previous AFL rules, Academy players were subject to a bidding system before the National Draft if they were nominated by an eligible club but could not be pre-selected by that club before the Rookie Draft.

Clubs with Academy programs – the Brisbane Lions, Gold Coast Suns, Sydney Swans and GWS Giants – should have the chance to pre-select local talent from the pool of players in their Academy between the Pre-Season and Rookie Drafts if those players nominated for but were not selected at the most recent National or Pre-Season Drafts.

The amendment is designed to create incentives for Academy clubs to develop talent by providing opportunities for them to rookie list players for further development.

Only draft-eligible club Academy players who were nominated by their club at the designated time and played in the National Championships are eligible to be pre-selected as a Category B rookie.



MINIMUM NUMBER OF ROOKIES

Rookie lists are now recognised as a key list management tool and designating a minimum number of rookies is no longer necessary as it is purely a club decision.

 

[Half Back Pocket]

The TPP for 2015 is expected to nudge over $10m

We are struggling to pay the minimum 95% (including a mass of 2016 wages being pre-paid i'd assume)

How many FA can we sign in 2016?

 

[dewah07]

The TPP for 2015 is expected to nudge over $10m

We are struggling to pay the minimum 95% (including a mass of 2016 wages being pre-paid i'd assume)

How many FA can we sign in 2016?

The question is will FA's want to play for us not a money issue