"Handing the keys to the AFL" - Carlton's situation

[MaddAdam]

What the hell is the "inner city community club angle"?

No pokies, The Huddle, "North Welcomes Refugees" on the banner, that kind of slightly holier than thou vibe we give off. Its a very deliberate "brand positioning" thing.

Essendon has its brand - the big, rich ultra successful club, Man U of the game etc.

Collingwood does the peoples's club, mob for the masses, gotta love their passion, no greater sound than a packed G when Collingwood kick a goal.

The Dogs do the western identity thing. They also do lots of decent community work (as do the Bombers, credit where it is due) but the fundamental brand is "the west".

What's Carlton's sell? Once powerful club gone to seed at the moment. Best they have offer at the moment is watching Patty Cripps and some draft picks develop. But they've already sold the rebuild around high picks thing and it didn't works.

They've also done the bring in a big name gun and Judd played some great footy for them, but didn't get them past the second week of the finals.

They're in a position where they'll be getting belted a lot at Etihad in crappy time slots. Which worsens their revenue problems.

It is probably going to get a lot worse at Carlton before it gets better, on and off field.

It's financial reality that they approaching the "cash strapped" area of things.

They have rich supporters who can bail them out but that's been done before.

Their issues are structural and deep

 

[Ned_Flanders]

The AFL is interested.

Both sides have been talking behind the scenes for years about converting the stadium into a boutique.

The numbers are just not there with Carlton holding the long term lease. AFL will not pump millions in without having control of the ground and gate receipts.

I suspect when ownership of Etihad flips to AFL you will see some action.

Etihad is a loss maker for most clubs with crowds less than 25k.

AFL, once they own Etihad will be tempted to run the 30k-50k crowds at Etihad and the below 30k crowds at Princes Park and have a situation where all clubs are happy and making money.

Just IMO, but the whole talk of punt road or PP as a third was just to leverage the discussion with Etihads owners

If the afl own Etihad, they will want every game possible going through the joint. They won't want to drive games away by having a third stadium (esp with four clubs selling small draws interstate)

 

[Silvagnis]

I am honestly mystified as to how Carlton have got themselves to the situation where they are approaching the AFL "trigger point" for formal intervention in their administration like has happened at various levels at other clubs.

Its a reality that what defines "big" and "small" clubs has radically changed in the last decade.

It is also a reality that what defines off field success, and how it is achieved, has dramatically changed.

But how does a club with significant pokies - and didn't they get a sweetheart deal for more off Mathieson recently - have such financial problems?

And more interestingly, what approach does Carlton take from here? They, as Lo Giudice acknowledged, done the rich white knight thing with Pratt. It doesn't appear to have worked.

Where's their market niche? The Dogs have the west. North have the inner city community club angle. What's Carlton's USP?

There is also the fact that if , as Trigg suggested, poor onfield results have whacked the bottom line, then they have a few more years of that coming with the rebuild.

They will also face issues on the value of their sponsorships given they have been banished from Friday nights.

I have said before the financial reality of the comp means that unless you are Collingwood or Essendon, or have your own ground like Geelong, a Victorian team needs a successful secondary market to be financially stable.

Where is Carlton's?

I suspect we are witnessing a tectonic shift in the Victorian footy landscape.

It has been obvious for a while now that Hawthorn is a true power club in every sense. Geelong are firmly established one rung below the truly big boys, but a huge improvement on where they were.

It is amazing to think that not that long ago Carlton tried to buy another club in North.

Yet even a perennial financial struggler like North is now far better placed off field than the Blues.

What way forward at Princes Park? Their options seem to be very, very limited.

We lost money after the AFL took our former sponsor and forced us to pay the luxury tax to support North and the Dogs who spend less.

How would you be travelling in that situation as a Victorian based team that doesn't sell their home games for dollars?

Not good.

Imagine the uproar if the AFL stole Mazda from a smaller club that sold it's games.

 

[MaddAdam]

I would have thought the North angle was the "we turn our backs on our fans and play home games in Tasmania" angle, but apparently not.

As I said in the OP, Vic clubs apart from Essendon and Collingwood, have to sell games. Unless they are lucky enough to be the one club that sits on some marginal seats, and had a series if premiers that barrack for it and thus gets built its own ATM.

Geelong have been kissed on the happy place by fate there, but every credit to Cook for maximizing it

The comparison with Carlton is actually pretty telling - clearly an unintended consequence of your lame troll - Geelong have used their home ground to guarantee financial stability.

Carlton had Princes Park but managed to turn it into an albatross round their neck.

 

[MaddAdam]

Bring Princes Park back as an upgraded 30k seat stadium and sell it out for our home games, except Tigs Pies and Bombers.

Would be awesome to have it back in action, and we'd get a better deal.

Yep, in theory would work but never going to happen.

Carlton do get screwed at Etihad on the stadium deal too.

 

[FootyGeek]

No pokies, The Huddle, "North Welcomes Refugees" on the banner, that kind of slightly holier than thou vibe we give off. Its a very deliberate "brand positioning" thing.

Essendon has its brand - the big, rich ultra successful club, Man U of the game etc.

Collingwood does the peoples's club, mob for the masses, gotta love their passion, no greater sound than a packed G when Collingwood kick a goal.

The Dogs do the western identity thing. They also do lots of decent community work (as do the Bombers, credit where it is due) but the fundamental brand is "the west".

What's Carlton's sell? Once powerful club gone to seed at the moment. Best they have offer at the moment is watching Patty Cripps and some draft picks develop. But they've already sold the rebuild around high picks thing and it didn't works.

They've also done the bring in a big name gun and Judd played some great footy for them, but didn't get them past the second week of the finals.

They're in a position where they'll be getting belted a lot at Etihad in crappy time slots. Which worsens their revenue problems.

It is probably going to get a lot worse at Carlton before it gets better, on and off field.

It's financial reality that they approaching the "cash strapped" area of things.

They have rich supporters who can bail them out but that's been done before.

Their issues are structural and deep

This is true.

Fingers crossed those that actually run the club have finally twigged about how to run a modern footy club. The signs have been good recently, Carlton has done things it has never done before. We actually look like we are serious about rebuilding steadily and properly.

It is going to be difficult. Hopefully we have the wherewithall and patience to see it through.

If the club loses patience then we are in for at least another decade of the same.

If we keep to the plan then while there is no guarantee of success at least we will give ourselves a chance to succeed.

 

[FootyGeek]

Yep, in theory would work but never going to happen.

Carlton do get screwed at Etihad on the stadium deal too.

When a club gets a crowd of over 20k to a game at Etihad and has to fork over $70,000 to the stadium for the privilege of playing there things are crook in tallarook.

 

[MaddAdam]

We lost money after the AFL took our former sponsor and forced us to pay the luxury tax to support North and the Dogs who spend less.

How would you be travelling in that situation as a Victorian based team that doesn't sell their home games for dollars?

Not good.

Imagine the uproar if the AFL stole Mazda from a smaller club that sold it's games.

What happened with your sponsor?

And you're kidding yourself if you think "luxury taxes" have anything to do with it.

 

[MaddAdam]

This is true.

Fingers crossed those that actually run the club have finally twigged about how to run a modern footy club. The signs have been good recently, Carlton has done things it has never done before. We actually look like we are serious about rebuilding steadily and properly.

It is going to be difficult. Hopefully we have the wherewithall and patience to see it through.

If the club loses patience then we are in for at least another decade of the same.

If we keep to the plan then while there is no guarantee of success at least we will give ourselves a chance to succeed.

Agree entirely. For mine the issue really is cultural. The whole culture of footy management and the footy economy has evolved hugely and rapidly and the Blues have been left behind.

 

[Tulip]

What the hell is the "inner city community club angle"?

Carlton probably has it more than North too.

 

[Silvagnis]

No pokies, The Huddle, "North Welcomes Refugees" on the banner, that kind of slightly holier than thou vibe we give off. Its a very deliberate "brand positioning" thing.

Essendon has its brand - the big, rich ultra successful club, Man U of the game etc.

Collingwood does the peoples's club, mob for the masses, gotta love their passion, no greater sound than a packed G when Collingwood kick a goal.

The Dogs do the western identity thing. They also do lots of decent community work (as do the Bombers, credit where it is due) but the fundamental brand is "the west".

What's Carlton's sell? Once powerful club gone to seed at the moment. Best they have offer at the moment is watching Patty Cripps and some draft picks develop. But they've already sold the rebuild around high picks thing and it didn't works.

They've also done the bring in a big name gun and Judd played some great footy for them, but didn't get them past the second week of the finals.

They're in a position where they'll be getting belted a lot at Etihad in crappy time slots. Which worsens their revenue problems.

It is probably going to get a lot worse at Carlton before it gets better, on and off field.

It's financial reality that they approaching the "cash strapped" area of things.

They have rich supporters who can bail them out but that's been done before.

Their issues are structural and deep

Please. More upside than North, the Dogs and Demons who have made another profit. All these teams have been on struggle street.

Our supporters need to stop being fickle bitches and get behind the club by buying memberships, merchandise, etc. Even Richmond broke records after getting the feint hint of success under Hardwick. They need to be as committed to success by providing a stable financial base to complement the money men that populate every AFL team.

 

[coniglio_number1]

I thought the dees would have the inner city. Those monogram new era hats should be all the rage

 

[Tulip]

I just want to see my team play.

This sums it up for me. Well said. Having said that, MaddAdam was pretty spot on at the end of 2012 when he predicted that the AFL would need to step in to help Melbourne. We were all convinced that he was crazy and Neeld was going to deliver what he'd signed on to do. I think Carlton needs to be preserved, but the fans have to start questioning the clubs decisions in real time rather than leaving it until its too late. There's a reason, for example, why most people think Silvagni has done a hatchet job on their list whilst Blues fans swear by him.

 

[Tulip]

Please. More upside than North, the Dogs and Demons who have made another profit. All these teams have been on struggle street.

Our supporters need to stop being fickle bitches and get behind the club by buying memberships, merchandise, etc. Even Richmond broke records after getting the feint hint of success under Hardwick. They need to be as committed to success by providing a stable financial base to complement the money men that populate every AFL team.

Not necessarily. The Dogs and Roos have always struggled a bit, but Melbourne was bigger than anyone in the state (Port was just as big in SA) 50 years ago. There does come a point where mismanagement transcends generations and you start to lose the support, fickle bitches or not.

 

[MaddAdam]

When a club gets a crowd of over 20k to a game at Etihad and has to fork over $70,000 to the stadium for the privilege of playing there things are crook in tallarook.

Yep. The sooner the AFL just buys Etihad and uses it to support tenant clubs, the less worries it will have.

Carlton get screwed like the rest of us.

 

[SgtSchulz]

Every club will face "financial difficulties" at some stage or another. It's just the nature of the cyclical competition. At least the AFL want them to do well. They will bounce back.

 

[MaddAdam]

This sums it up for me. Well said. Having said that, MaddAdam was pretty spot on at the end of 2012 when he predicted that the AFL would need to step in to help Melbourne. We were all convinced that he was crazy and Neeld was going to deliver what he'd signed on to do. I think Carlton needs to be preserved, but the fans have to start questioning the clubs decisions in real time rather than leaving it until its too late. There's a reason, for example, why most people think Silvagni has done a hatchet job on their list whilst Blues fans swear by him.

This is another issue. Unproven coach - those games replacing Clarko dont count - with a truly awful list. It could get really ugly onfield.

Some of the trading decisions were bizarre. Getting rid of Menzel but bringing in four GWS blokes who have done stuff all?

They COULD be the year's surprise packet. More likely they'll be Neeld's Melbourne.

(Fwiw I think the Dees will be "next year's Bulldogs" but that's another story)

 

[numchuks]

I would have thought the North angle was the "we turn our backs on our fans and play home games in Tasmania" angle, but apparently not.

>Attacks North for taking home games away from their supporters to Tasmania.

>Supports Geelong who has been taking home games to Melbourne for 30+ years.

Not the sharpest tool in the shed.

 

[Tulip]

This is another issue. Unproven coach - those games replacing Clarko dont count - with a truly awful list. It could get really ugly onfield.

Some of the trading decisions were bizarre. Getting rid of Menzel but bringing in four GWS blokes who have done stuff all?

They COULD be the year's surprise packet. More likely they'll be Neeld's Melbourne.

(Fwiw I think the Dees will be "next year's Bulldogs" but that's another story)

I suppose Bolton has a rare enthusiasm for it, at least, so he won't be thrown off by bad results. Does Carlton have the enthusiasm for Bolton though? He's on a rolling one year contract, which is unprecedented for a new coach in this league.

Blues fans will tell you that Menzel didn't work hard, but I was chatting with a fairly prominent Melbourne footy writer about a year ago, ex-Roy and current Blues fan, who said he was his biggest cause for enthusiasm in years. How has he gone from that, to traded for pick 28 and Sam Kerridge? Mis-management, and a club that either doesn't back itself to change him or has a list-manager who honestly believes that four guys who couldn't get a game in a bottom 10 side will be better options.

They'll win a game somewhere, but I just don't see how they'll see improvement.

 

[grouse mate]

They have a huge supporter base that is pissed off at the direction the board has taken the club in recent years. Once they rebuild the list they could easily generate 70k members.

Stupid thread.

 

[MaddAdam]

They have a huge supporter base that is pissed off at the direction the board has taken the club in recent years. Once they rebuild the list they could easily generate 70k members.

Stupid thread.

They theoretically do but I think the actual Carlton supporter base is smaller than the presumption of many.

They've also had a fairly crappy recent past, not much incentive for new arrivals or kids to pick them.

Melbourne once had a very big support base and they lost large sections.

 

[Ant85]

They seem to have started the rebuild on the right track.

Got a highly regarded assistant from a successful club as their new coach (doesn't always work out, see Malthouse's assistants, but it's a good approach).

Positioned themselves nicely for the draft with 4 picks in the top 20, and they traded out the players who didn't want to be there.

It's going to be a long rebuild, but they've started. They have a large supporter base that will return as soon as they see their club going somewhere.

 

[Goggin Our Best]

Agree entirely. For mine the issue really is cultural. The whole culture of footy management and the footy economy has evolved hugely and rapidly and the Blues have been left behind.

Nothing against the Carlton supporters because they dont make the decisions and run the club

But do you have sympathy for Carlton the club - and its current plight - you mentioned about trying to buy Nth Melb - and the only thing which blocked that was the unusual private share set up - that Ansett set up

In the late 80s and early 90s - when the Swans were on their knees - virtually insolvent - 20 losses on the trot under Buckenara - there was a move and official vote by the clubs to kick the Swans out - i heard Willesee interviewed - and he said Geelong were against it - however both Carlton and Collingwood were for it - and they had the numbers - and the only thing which stopped the Swans being out on their aarse like South Sydney - was McCallister heard that Elliot was planning to play Carltons home games at the SCG - with the Swans out of the comp - thats the only reason why McCallister changed his vote

Its very hard to be sympathetic to Carlton as a club

 

[Ant85]

Nothing against the Carlton supporters because they dont make the decisions and run the club

But do you have sympathy for Carlton the club - and its current plight - you mentioned about trying to buy Nth Melb - and the only thing which blocked that was the unusual private share set up - that Ansett set up

In the late 80s and early 90s - when the Swans were on their knees - virtually insolvent - 20 losses on the trot under Buckenara - there was a move and official vote by the clubs to kick the Swans out - i heard Willesee interviewed - and he said Geelong were against it - however both Carlton and Collingwood were for it - and they had the numbers - and the only thing which stopped the Swans being out on their aarse like South Sydney - was McCallister heard that Elliot was planning to play Carltons home games at the SCG - with the Swans out of the comp - thats the only reason why McCallister changed his vote

Its very hard to be sympathetic to Carlton as a club

Very true, and you're only referring to the shady crap Carlton did in the 1990s.

They were at it for 100 years! A rotten club to the core, no wonder it's taken at least 15 years to weed out the trash. But they pride themselves on their arrogance, it's part of the club's identity.

 

[MaddAdam]

They seem to have started the rebuild on the right track.

Got a highly regarded assistant from a successful club as their new coach (doesn't always work out, see Malthouse's assistants, but it's a good approach).

Positioned themselves nicely for the draft with 4 picks in the top 20, and they traded out the players who didn't want to be there.

It's going to be a long rebuild, but they've started. They have a large supporter base that will return as soon as they see their club going somewhere.

Good post. They want to nail their picks though. The Dogs used two years worth of high picks and got stringer, Bontempelli and macrae. That's a gun midfield for a decade.

The Dees once had four picks in the top 20 in 2009 and look what happened there. Scully, Trengove, Gysberts and Tapscott. That sets you back five years. It is cheap to play with hindsight but imagine with those picks they'd gone Martin, Cunnington, Daniel Talia and Jake Carlisle. All blokes available at their picks. (Fyfe doesn't count, Freo pulled a beauty there).

Carlton need these picks to work and while SOS did get some guns at GWS he had huge resources and plenty of their high picks didn't work out.

Of these four, they can only really afford one bust.