I think we just abandoned wider bigfooty as a whole. Hartlett should finish top 5 B n F, was outstanding for the latter two thirds of the year while the team was indifferent.
Hartlett vs Martin vs Ziebell vs Shuey
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North supporters seem to vastly overrate Ziebell. He is easily the least damaging of the 4, 70% of his game is snatching the ball from a contest and blindly throwing it onto the boot, he lacks class that the other 3 have. He can physically impose himself in a contest better than the others perhaps, but that doesn't make him as good a player, and his best is clearly behind Shuey's, Martin's and Hartlett's, and for season 2015 the only reason he wasn't 4th best performed was Hartlett's poor first half of the season in a generally underperforming side. As far as 2015 goes, it could go either way to Martin and Shuey as best performed, Martin averaged 2 more disposals, 1 more mark, 1.5 more rebound 50's ,Shuey averaged 1 more tackle, 3 more clearances, 1 less clanger, 1.5 more contested possessions, 0.5 more goal assists. Shuey also gets extra points for a strong QF, a decent PF and one of the only guys who can hold their head high after a dismal team performance in the GF.
Joshen
Norm Smith Medallist
You have to understand that when you make sweeping generalisations about a whole bunch a supporters (especially given a large number of them have the same criticism of Ziebell), greatly exaggerating said point really diminishes the effectiveness of your argument.
In fact, I'd contend that Shuey's rise in the eyes of Eagles' fans from debately better than Jack, to surpassing Dusty (clearly the most well performed out of the 4) next season illustrates the "[vast over-ration]" you seem so keen to accuse North posters of.
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My issue with ziebell is that for a player who is a 'clearance throw ball on boot' type player, his average disposals is no where near as high as it should be. He's Priddis without the high production
I think he has a lot of value as a part time forward. He should be played more there
I think he has a lot of value as a part time forward. He should be played more there
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North fans overrate Zeibell? Then you go on to say it could go either way this year between Martin and Shuey, this is despite the fact Martin was clear 7th in the Brownlow 21 votes to Shuey 7, made the squad of 40 for the AA that Shuey didn't, had Shuey easily covered in the Coaches votes 61 to Shuey 33. and topped the year off as runner up in the BF (to AA Rance)
Sorry this year Martin >>> Shuey.
EagleCanival
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You're not making a strong case for yourself if you are using Brownlow votes as an indicator of how someone performs.
By your logic Stanton (6 votes) is a better player than Rockliff (4 votes)
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I agree, just goes to show how Pridis is overrated
EagleCanival
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You're not making a strong case for yourself if you are using Brownlow votes as an indicator of how someone performs.
By your logic Stanton (6 votes) is a better player than Rockliff (4 votes)
Shuey has stars like Kennedy, Priddis, Gaff and NicNat stealing votes off of him (yet still gets tagged every week.) Martin isn't surrounded by that type of talent week in, week out who will still votes off of him.
Look at Shueys game with Priddis out in the first week of the finals. Got given BOG despite getting tagged against the best team in the comp.
By your logic Stanton (6 votes) is a better player than Rockliff (4 votes)
Shuey has stars like Kennedy, Priddis, Gaff and NicNat stealing votes off of him (yet still gets tagged every week.) Martin isn't surrounded by that type of talent week in, week out who will still votes off of him.
Look at Shueys game with Priddis out in the first week of the finals. Got given BOG despite getting tagged against the best team in the comp.
EagleCanival
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I totally agree.
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And Fyfe
You can look at brownlow/aflca tallies and AA etc. but that doesn't always tell the whole story, especially with no context.
AFLCA and particularly brownlow votes are heavily influenced by your team mates. Shuey played in a side with the previous brownlow medalist, the current best wingman in the competition, the clear best full forward in the competition as well as consistently solid performances from naitanui, lecras, cripps, yeo, mcgovern, sheppard, wellingham etc. Yes they are individual awards, but as far as comparing individual performances based on the leaderboards, they aren't ideal, because individual performance in the award tallies is relative to those around the player. In the brownlow, M Murphy had 12 votes, Heppell had 10, Watson had 7, Vince had 14, Jones had 10, Swallow had 8, Ebert had 10, all equal to, or more than Shuey's 7, but not one of those players had a season equally as good as, let alone better than Shuey.
You can point to the award tallies, or the AA squads all you want, but everybody knows how unreliable and inconsistent they can be. There's definitely an argument that could be made that Martin had the better season, but there's not much in it at all, certainly not as much as some people here seem to think, the opposite argument can also be made when all things are considered, statistically they had a very similar year, and both players were instrumental to their team's success, I just feel as though Shuey's season has been vastly underrated due to the career best seasons of those around him, especially his finals series. He was BOG against the reigning premiers in the QF, when the midfield was lacking 2 key players in Priddis and Masten, and in a closer game may have been then deciding factor. He was quieter in the PF due to being tagged by the in form tagger of the comp, but still managed to break through and have an impact, kicking 2 goals and managing 6 clearances. He made a couple of errors in the GF but was one of the only eagles players who gave the game 100 % and tried to take it on, would have been top 2 for WCE, albeit in an all round poorly performed side, but he deserves credit for his game.
EagleCanival
Club Legend
You're kidding me aren't you?
I'm trying to convey that it's not an accurate way of measuring players ability. Are you trying to tell me Aaron Hall is better then Rory Sloane because he polled more votes? Or Stanton is better then Rockliff for polling more votes? Or Mitch Wallis is better then Cyril Rioli?
Your argument is flawed and I'm not questioning Fyfe he was easilly the best player of the year, and I'm not sure why you're bringing him into it.
Donkey Chop
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FFS. I'm sick of West Coast supporters coming in here telling us we're not allowed to use accolades like the All Australian squad, the coaches award, the Brownlow etc as part of the argument. And then to make it worse they turn around and go on about stats like DE and average possessions and s**t.
FFS if Shuey won the Norm Smith or the Brownlow they wouldn't be in here saying the award doesn't mean anything, the main thing was his DE was 75%. Give it a bloody spell.
Oh but Shuey is surrounded by stars, how on earth was he supposed to do well in these awards? By going good enough that's how.
FFS if Shuey won the Norm Smith or the Brownlow they wouldn't be in here saying the award doesn't mean anything, the main thing was his DE was 75%. Give it a bloody spell.
Oh but Shuey is surrounded by stars, how on earth was he supposed to do well in these awards? By going good enough that's how.
Well Shuey did just finish fourth in the best and fairest count of a grand finalist.
Donkey Chop
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Ziebell finished 5th. I spose you have to take into account he's up against the best ruck in the Comp and raft of other stars. It's hard when Ziebell has soooo much competition
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So that's ok but coming second to Martin in the Brownlow, Coaches awards etc isn't
Point was awards don't mean much. Stats though clearly show Shuey was a mile above Ziebell.
EagleCanival
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raft of other stars? Goldy is the only player on your team that made the AA team. Shuey narrowly finished behind 3 All Australians despite getting tagged each week.
EagleCanival
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For anyone interested this is the order of the AFL player ratings on their official app goes as followed.
Shuey- 23
Hartlett- 36
Martin- 46
Ziebell- 120
or anyone wondering how this sophisticated algorithm works, it can be explained here. http://m.afl.com.au/stats/player-ratings/ratings-explained
It's pretty accurate considering its top few are Fyfe, Pendles, Danger and Goldy.
Shuey- 23
Hartlett- 36
Martin- 46
Ziebell- 120
or anyone wondering how this sophisticated algorithm works, it can be explained here. http://m.afl.com.au/stats/player-ratings/ratings-explained
It's pretty accurate considering its top few are Fyfe, Pendles, Danger and Goldy.
Yes and Brent Harvey is the 10th best player in the league, Marcus Bontempelli is better than Travis Boak, Chad Wingard and Jarrad Roughead. Dayne Zorko is twice the player Sam Mitchell is.
Etc, etc, etc.
EagleCanival
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Never said it was absolutely perfect, however it's still a much better indicator then the Brownlow medal votes so many of you treat like gospel.
Zorko is twice the player Mitchell is" umm no he only scored a few extra points than Mitchell did actually. Doubling someone's rank does not make them twice as good, please read on how the system works before commenting.
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Apart from Woewodin and Cooney who were the Brownlow medal winners who didn't deserve it.
Who is treating brownlow votes like gospel?
Anyhow, the fact that Zorko is even near Mitchell, let alone above him in any sort of ranking system makes one think it's fairly unreliable, no?
EagleCanival
Club Legend
Firstly, the majority of the time the best player of the year is not given the brownlow medal. Since 2007 the rightful winner has taken home the prize 3 times. Gary in 2009 an 2013 and Fyfe this year.
Secondly, this is irrelevent anyway as the argument is whether or not polling more brownlow votes makes you a better player or not, which I already have listed examples above (in which I was responding to you, which you havent replied to).
The guy quoted above you is treating brownlow votes as such, when in reality they mean very little.
Aaron Hall is better then Rory Sloane because he polled more votes? Or Stanton is better then Rockliff for polling more votes? Or Mitch Wallis is better then Cyril Rioli? Bernie Vince better then the bont? Swan better then Pendles? Macrae better then Heppell??? I could go on, but you get the point.
The fact that Aaron Hall is even remotely close to Rory Sloane let alone above him in any sort of ranking system makes one think it's fairly unreliable, no?
Donkey Chop
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Never said it was absolutely perfect l, however it did suit your argument so you went with it.
Afl rankings also has Tom Bell ahead of Steven Motlop.
Please stop coming back with accolades that only suits your argument. Either you take all into account it none at all.
IMO the best to go by are the coaches awards.
A) Because they ate voted by the wining coach, who chooses the player that played exactly the role he was meant to play
And B)the losing coach, who votes for the player that caused the most damage.
I'm sick of people picking and choosing which stats/awards/accolades they are running with purely because it suits their argument.
24 months ago 70% of Eagles supporters didn't rate Priddis,now they are using him as an excuse as to why Shuey wasn't rated by the coaches or the Brownlow or any other award in the AFL.
Get over it. He's a good player. He's no where near Martin and slightly behind Ziebell and about even with Hartlett. Once Hartlett gets a clear run at it Shuey will be dead last.
As for Shuey gets a tag every week, that flys in the face of "he's got too much competition".
If these other super stars were sooo good don't you think they'd tag them? I know they tag Gaff but Priddis and um whoever else is a super star, why aren't they getting tagged?
Ziebell doesn't get tagged because he's intaggable. Just too strong
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