Here comes Workchoices III the elimination of penatly rates

[pazza]

The one thing the Liberal Party loves to do is to pick fights with unions and workers seemingly and so the current discussion on penalty rates is the latest effort.

For those low wage earners, penalty rates are often the difference between financial struggle and some sort of comfortable existence.

Where is this all going?

 

[Rustin Cohle]

If Labor doesn't fight this tooth and nail I will never in my life consider voting for them again.

 

[Fire]

I don't get why they should go; if a buisiness can't afford to operate with penalty rates then don't open; the buisibess owner doesnt lose money, their employees can enjoy the occasion thats causing the penalty rates, and customers will be serviced by businesses that has a superior buisiness model. Everyone wins.

The only thing removing penalty rates will do is allow otherwise uncompetitive companies to bully their mostly untrained and poorly paid staff to work on extraordinary occasions. The employers make moar and their employees get screwed over. It's win lose.

I see no valid argument for ditching them.

 

[Rob]

I don't get why they should go; if a buisiness can't afford to operate with penalty rates then don't open; the buisibess owner doesnt lose money,

I'm not necessarily in favour of getting rid of penalty rates, but you clearly don't understand how business works if you think a business doesn't lose money by not being open.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

the liberals must really want to lose the election.

 

[noddy]

The one thing the Liberal Party loves to do is to pick fights with unions and workers seemingly and so the current discussion on penalty rates is the latest effort.

For those low wage earners, penalty rates are often the difference between financial struggle and some sort of comfortable existence.

Where is this all going?

Malcolm has stated that no workers would be worse off if sunday penalty rates are cut so I guess that means that those on low rates to begin with will have the opportunity to work more hours for the same take home pay as before the rates were cut, wonderful that means more time at work & less time at home with the family for the same return as before.

Once the right wing power brokers of this country have one foot in the door of industrial relations they wont stop until the door is finally kicked down.

 

[Maggie5]

I have heard that by reducing penalty rates, it will boost employment.
I know of a number of small businesses that do not open on Sundays but that it is not due to wages it is simply that where they are located don't see the point as the traffic is not there.
For those that do open, there is not a need to employ anymore people and any savings would just go back into the business as profit.

 

[Gough]

This is just an indirect subsidy for businesses that aren't sustainable, something I thought this government didn't do. If you can't pay your staff you shouldn't be in business, what happened to the invisible hand?

 

[The Punter]

If you don't like three word slogans, then I don't know what to tell you about any proposed IR change from the Coalition being dubbed WorkChoices Mark (insert iteration here).

Surely we can have a mature discussion about how the changing nature of how people like to work and consume and recreate and how that can be reflected in how people work. The productivity agenda is stalled, and while a more "whole of economy" discussion is badly needed, this is part of that discussion.

I'm not suggesting for one moment what the appropriate policy response is, or even if this is an area which eventually needs a response, but we need to be able to have a discussion without this dangerous hyperbole.

On the other hand, now that I have written all this, I must confess I'm pretty agnostic on how we should move forward on penatly rates.

 

[CbayT]

For those have open minds and want to consider what mal said these are sensible improvements and not mindlessly repeat trade hall propoganda. If it really is about family friendly hours why is it than night shift penalties are less than Sunday rates? The suggestion that Sunday reduce to 1.5 times is a good one

For those who think an improved business model will enable businesses to open on Sunday you are correct its called an EBA that does away with Sunday rates. But these are only available for the big end of town the one unions prefer.

 

[The Punter]

Wait, wait, trading away one benefit for another benefit in an EBA? This sounds like the sort of agreement Bill Shorten would negotiate.

 

[CbayT]

Wait, wait, trading away one benefit for another benefit in an EBA? This sounds like the sort of agreement Bill Shorten would negotiate.

Only if it included a crap load of training provided by the experts, that may or may not turn up, lending election support staff can help sometimes I have heard on the grape vine.

The point is that small business is being crucified by big businesses all caused by the unions

 

[The Punter]

Well, the unions prefer to work with big business than small business because the workforce is easier to organise, the potential membership is bigger, and the financial situation less likely to be volatile.

Christopher Pyne is reported this morning to have stated that the PM has said there is no plan to eliminate penalty rates (or penatly rates for that matter), but this is the start of a national IR discussion.

Worth noting that some of the criticism of the new PM is he enjoys discussing things too much.

 

[CbayT]

Worth noting that some of the criticism of the new PM is he enjoys discussing things too much.

That is not a bad thing ideas are worth discussing

if aldi et al pay a flat $per hour Monday to Sunday an option should be there on all awards

 

[Maggie5]

That is not a bad thing ideas are worth discussing

if aldi et al pay a flat $per hour Monday to Sunday an option should be there on all awards

I am assuming that you are saying increase the hourly rate and not pay penalties, is that right?
Wouldn't this then penalise those that do not open on Sundays?

 

[Mick39]

Penalty rates may have been sustainable in the 50/60's but with the rise of globalisation & FTA's, you actually lose industry in countries if you aren't globally competitive.

 

[noddy]

For those have open minds and want to consider what mal said these are sensible improvements and not mindlessly repeat trade hall propoganda. If it really is about family friendly hours why is it than night shift penalties are less than Sunday rates? The suggestion that Sunday reduce to 1.5 times is a good one

For those who think an improved business model will enable businesses to open on Sunday you are correct its called an EBA that does away with Sunday rates. But these are only available for the big end of town the one unions prefer.

Didn't take long before party headquarters sent you out to spread the party line.

I shall eagerly await the LP mantra come election time.

 

[noddy]

Penalty rates may have been sustainable in the 50/60's but with the rise of globalisation & FTA's, you actually lose industry in countries if you aren't globally competitive.

And in detail what is your suggestion to achieve this global competiveness?

 

[CbayT]

I am assuming that you are saying increase the hourly rate and not pay penalties, is that right?
Wouldn't this then penalise those that do not open on Sundays?

That's what ebas the unions like the sda and awu etc have negotiated, which makes them hypocrites when they attack mal on reducing Sunday penalty rates

 

[Mick39]

And in detail what is your suggestion to achieve this global competiveness?

Simple economics. A business has to be more productive.

The main reason why the likes of Toyota & Holden have pulled up shop here is there are cheaper labour markets who are also more productive.

Japan & Australia are the two most expensive labour markets in the world in terms of manufacturing. The difference is Japan has a far greater output and productivity, that is why they don't lose industry.

 

[CbayT]

Didn't take long before party headquarters sent you out to spread the party line.

I shall eagerly await the LP mantra come election time.

Naah just a supporter of equity and small business.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

I have heard that by reducing penalty rates, it will boost employment.
I know of a number of small businesses that do not open on Sundays but that it is not due to wages it is simply that where they are located don't see the point as the traffic is not there.
For those that do open, there is not a need to employ anymore people and any savings would just go back into the business as profit.

Exactly - look at the contempt these politicians, ministers and business lobby groups hold people in when they run such fallacious arguments.

"Reducing penalty rates will increase employment" - do they seriously think people will buy this argument? Are retail shops/pubs etc really understaffing their businesses on Sundays because of the additional wages? If it is no net difference to the business (eg they are spending the same money on wages whether it is 3 staff at 2.5x or 5 staff at 1.5x) why do they care so much about getting rid of penalty rates? It is because it is extra money in their pocket, that is all they give a stuff about.

"Reducing penalty rates will increase the normal hourly rate so all staff will be better off not just those who work the shifts" - again, what sort of mugs do these crooks take us for? Is the government/FWC going to mandate that employers who remove penalty rates have to have a provide increased wages to the rest of their staff at an equal ratio? Again, if businesses are no better off at the end of the week why would they care?

They really are a crooked scheming bunch of sociopaths, the sooner we kick these career politicians in the back pocket of big business out the door and get people in who haven't been bought yet the better off this country will be.

 

[04 Durif]

If you don't need penalty rates put the grand final on a Tuesday

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Well, the unions prefer to work with big business than small business because the workforce is easier to organise, the potential membership is bigger, and the financial situation less likely to be volatile.

Christopher Pyne is reported this morning to have stated that the PM has said there is no plan to eliminate penalty rates (or penatly rates for that matter), but this is the start of a national IR discussion.

Worth noting that some of the criticism of the new PM is he enjoys discussing things too much.

If you don't think they'll go after other entitlements once they get rid of Sunday penalty rates you've got rocks in your head.

Simple economics. A business has to be more productive.

The main reason why the likes of Toyota & Holden have pulled up shop here is there are cheaper labour markets who are also more productive.

Japan & Australia are the two most expensive labour markets in the world in terms of manufacturing. The difference is Japan has a far greater output and productivity, that is why they don't lose industry.

The reason we aren't competitive is because successive governments have signed away our sovereignty in FTA's removing trade barriers and tariffs which protected our local economy. They want to drag our workers rights and living standards down to the level of the third world effectively destroying the middle class. If they kept our economies protections in place then we would still be able to compete with imports.

 

[katana]

i think all the fuss is a bit of a crock, really. i've worked about four years in hospitality now, part-time and full-time at various points, at some pretty high-end restaurants and bars, and a dingy pub briefly.

i've never, ever been paid extra for working on a sunday and i've worked well over 150 sundays in that period. the only penalties i've received are time-and-a-half on new years eve, but the tips you get on that evening blows the penalties away anyhow. mostly, pubs and restaurant staff are on cash-in-hand anyway, so they're hardly paying the extra $2.50 an hour or whatever it's meant to be (i started out on $16 an hour in 2012, and am on $22 an hour now, doesn't matter if it's tuesday or grand final eve). last weekend i worked thursday, friday, saturday, sunday with no public holiday rates and most certainly no 'sunday penalty rates'. i know governments and economic types don't like to look at actual reality, but the abolishment of penalty rates will make virtually zero difference to my wages and the wages of a large swathe of hospitality workers across melbourne.

it's really only larger retailers (supermarkets, departments, fast-food, etc.) that are paying the penalties anyhow, so when you think removing penalties is going 'help small businesses' then you're full of s**t.