Imagine the AFL without SANFL and WAFL

[SellarStardom]

An article in SA this week highlights a major concern in the structure of Australian Football. With the AFL as the elite league, the competition relies heavily on the WAFL, SANfL and VFL and their supporting lower leagues to develop the talent hat ultimately joins the AFL.

However, the developer leagues receive next to nothing for developing a player that is drafted. I have long thought that a transfer payment scheme should be in place so that the number 1 draft pick receives the highest transfer payment and so on as you go down the draft order. The payment system would be arranged so that the state league receives a proportion as does the players junior club.

The article featuring Matt Benson the CEO of the Sturt football club reinforces all that is wrong with the draft at the moment. Sturt is a great club that has produced and continues to produce talent for the AFL. When Brodie Grundy was drafted this year Sturt would have received little in return from the drafting AFL team.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport...-future-lifeline/story-e6freckc-1226583851648

There is a very real prospect of Sturt folding in the coming years.

My question is simple, isn't a set of strong leagues (including the AFL, state leagues and junior levels) critical to the growth of the game? The football commission should be focused on ensuring the growth and development of the game not just the AFL.

 

[The_Wookie]

Transfer payments were originally made from the 70s. The VFL decided against them in the 80s, partly because it was a means for the SANFL clubs to give the finger to the VFL. The SANFL clubs for years, and indeed the SANFL, have made no secret of their desire to be independent of the AFL, and that independence comes at a price.

The AFL has no obligation to keep the SANFL clubs running, that is specifically a job for the SANFL.The AFL has told the SANFL for years that the SANFL salary cap is unsustainable - its 100k a year more than the WAFL clubs for example. Its not the AFLs fault that Sturt cant get a good deal with Unley Council for Unley Oval - maybe they should try for cheap rent at the SANFL owned Football Park. West Adelaide is also floating pretty close to the wire as well. The SANFL is sitting on land worth $200 million to developers - outside of Aami Stadium, and the SANFL itself is 27 million in the red. Perhaps its time to start selling off its own property.

What happens without the SANFL clubs? Say Hello to AFL SA and TAC Cup style competition here in Adelaide. The AFL already funds Auskick and under 15 programs, as well as the Under 16s and Under 18 championships.

It has consistently amazed me over the years how the WAFC has managed to do so well with both its clubs well and truly benefitting the state league - theres a great harmony in the WA operation that just doesnt exist in SA football. Adelaide and Port are bothing hanging to get out from under the SANFL umbrella, and their profits and combined income are less than what the comparable WA teams make.

 

[The_Reaper]

It has consistently amazed me over the years how the WAFC has managed to do so well with both its clubs well and truly benefitting the state league - theres a great harmony in the WA operation that just doesnt exist in SA football. Adelaide and Port are bothing hanging to get out from under the SANFL umbrella, and their profits and combined income are less than what the comparable WA teams make.

It's not amazing.
The WAFC went broke and the WA government took over.

 

[The_Wookie]

It's not amazing.
The WAFC went broke and the WA government took over.

No I understand that, and that happened before the VFL appointed its commission. Theres a vast difference in the operation of the WAFL and SANFL despite them having similar arrangements. Quite how the SANFL is in the pickle its in, despite owning its stadium, is beyond me.

 

[The_Reaper]

No I understand that, and that happened before the VFL appointed its commission. Theres a vast difference in the operation of the WAFL and SANFL despite them having similar arrangements. Quite how the SANFL is in the pickle its in, despite owning its stadium, is beyond me.

The WAFL and the SANFL have very different arrangements.

The SANFL owns the AFL licenses and runs football in the state. The SANFL's main interest is obviously the SANFL so that's what it prioritises.

The WAFL is run- along with football in the state and the AFL licenses by the WAFC. Whilst the WAFL clubs do have influence over the WAFC the fact that the WAFC is independent (and answers to the WA government) means that the WAFC can make better decisions.

 

[The_Wookie]

The WAFL and the SANFL have very different arrangements.

The SANFL owns the AFL licenses and runs football in the state. The SANFL's main interest is obviously the SANFL so that's what it prioritises.

The WAFL is run- along with football in the state and the AFL licenses by the WAFC. Whilst the WAFL clubs do have influence over the WAFC the fact that the WAFC is independent (and answers to the WA government) means that the WAFC can make better decisions.

So lets clarify...

The WAFC and the SAFC - yes there is one but its mainly SANFL focussed. And given recent decisions regarding the reserves teams and compensation and threats from the WAFL clubs Id argue that the independence of the WAFC is more theoretical than anything.

SA Football Commission - State league, 2 AFL licenses, Football Park ownership
WA Football Commision - State league, 2 AFL licenses, Subiaco on peppercorn rent

The similarities are there, you are arguing semantics without seeing the point that there is no reason, given the above that the SANFL and its clubs should be worse off than the WAFL and its clubs given near identical circumstances.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

The big difference between WA and SA is the WAFC is made of independent people. The last time I looked the WAFC was composed of;
2 ex Freo directors one, Frank Cooper is the Chairman of the WAFC with no WAFL club allegiances,
2 ex WCE directors with no allegiances to any WAFL club,
1 ex WAFL club player and board member and
2 independent other commissioners with no allegiances to any WAFL clubs or Freo or WCE

SANFL appointed its first independent commissioner in July 2011. Even chairman and ex premier John Olsen has a strong tie back to West Adelaide. The SANFL CEO is the executive commissioner ie Leigh Whicker. All the other members of the SAFC are ex CEO's, presidents or board members of SANFL clubs.

The WAFC sit at the top of the WA football and WAFL underneath it. The SANFL 8 clubs ( port magpies is now part of an AFL club) and their president sit on top of football in SA and the 8 presidents plus the director of country and community football vote on the SAFC members.

So the WAFC sees ex Freo and WCE people as being the right people to be commissioners. The SANFL don't see crows or Port people as being good enough to be on the SAFC. 10 years ago did anyone in WA see an ex Freo director become chairman of the WAFC in 2010?? No one in SA can see an ex Port director become chairman of the SAFC for another 40 years.

 

[Rob]

It has consistently amazed me over the years how the WAFC has managed to do so well with both its clubs well and truly benefitting the state league - theres a great harmony in the WA operation that just doesnt exist in SA football. Adelaide and Port are bothing hanging to get out from under the SANFL umbrella, and their profits and combined income are less than what the comparable WA teams make.

It shouldn't really be surprising - both WA clubs are heavily supported and highly profitable. Consequently they can afford to send money south down the chain and there isn't a great deal of angst about it (although there have been concerns raised in the past). In SA you have 1 club that doesn't even have enough money to support itself, yet there is still huge pressure on them to continue to finance the SANFL clubs indulgences (i.e the huge salary cap). 10 years ago this was fine as Port were winning and they were profitable. Now, not so much. Essentially the SANFL clubs need to cut back their expenditure, but who's going to tell them to? The SANFL is run by the clubs.

The other point is that there is a clear pecking order in WA that everyone understands, and that is the AFL clubs then daylight. In SA there are people that genuinely believe the SANFL clubs are on top, or at least equal with the AFL clubs. Hence why you have archaic concepts like 'SANFL membership' draining the AFL clubs of resources. There is a real sense of entitlement from the clubs that they deserve millions of dollars a year from the AFL clubs - which is all well and good when that money actually exists. At the moment, a lot of it doesn't.

 

[cos789]

An My question is simple, isn't a set of strong leagues (including the AFL, state leagues and junior levels) critical to the growth of the game? The football commission should be focused on ensuring the growth and development of the game not just the AFL.

Yes.
The AFL should ban not promote second tier associations so second teir leagues maintain there integrity.
The second tier leagues should form a national organisation and self promote.
A champions league playoff at the end of the season would be a good promotion.
Also the second tier comps could experiment with (or not follow) rule changes.

 

[Kwality]

Yes.
The AFL should ban not promote second tier associations so second teir leagues maintain there integrity.
The second tier leagues should form a national organisation and self promote.
A champions league playoff at the end of the season would be a good promotion.
Also the second tier comps could experiment with (or not follow) rule changes.

The second tier comps in the AFL era feed the player pool, with the TAC Cup in Vic playing a similar role.

Promoting the 2nd tier is a waste of time as demonstrated by the Sheffield Shield comp in cricket.

 

[cos789]

The second tier comps in the AFL era feed the player pool, with the TAC Cup in Vic playing a similar role..

That's the view from the AFL.
However the second tier competitions exist for their ownn reasons.

ThePromoting the 2nd tier is a waste of time as demonstrated by the Sheffield Shield comp in cricket.

Absolute bs.
The Sheffield Shield is a waste if time because nobody is interested.
The second tier football competitions are still supported to a small degree.
Promoting second tier football compeitions can only produce positive results as the AFL benefits from healthy second tier competitions.

.

 

[royaldave]

While I agree that the AFL has a limited responsibility to look after 2nd tier clubs, the transfer fee system currently paid to state league clubs is pathetic. When one considers the cost of developing players and running a state league club the money gotten back for the effort is peanuts, especially considering how much these players are later worth in real terms - ie look how many millions of dollars float around the AFL world in tv, sponsorship etc.

Many state league clubs are only just keeping their heads above water - yes you can criticise (to some extent) salary caps etc. but if clubs got paid real money for the effort of producing players it'd go a long way to keeping everyone happy.

 

[Kwality]

That's the view from the AFL.
However the second tier competitions exist for their ownn reasons.



Absolute bs.
The Sheffield Shield is a waste if time because nobody is interested.
The second tier football competitions are still supported to a small degree.
Promoting second tier football compeitions can only produce positive results as the AFL benefits from healthy second tier competitions.

.

We all know the history & like it or not, the WAFL/SANFL/VFL were the top tier & today they arent.

The point about the Sheffield Shield is that it has been a very successful breeding ground for test cricketers. Why do they need to be promoted?

 

[IanW]

An article in SA this week highlights a major concern in the structure of Australian Football. With the AFL as the elite league, the competition relies heavily on the WAFL, SANfL and VFL and their supporting lower leagues to develop the talent hat ultimately joins the AFL.

However, the developer leagues receive next to nothing for developing a player that is drafted.

Just as long as the Owens and Murray League are on the same rules ... just remember, those bloodsuckers in the SANFL have been looting country footy for years.

 

[The_Wookie]

But what about country kids?

Josh Bootsma played half a season with South Freo, but the rest of his junior football was at North Albany. He grew up as a footballer at Collingwood Park, not Fremantle Oval. Why should South Freo get the money for essentially just giving him that platform to get to AFL?

The same can happen if a kid's just playing WAAFA in the city, then happens to get picked up by a WAFL side.

The development that occurs at junior, ammo clubs isn't really anything of cost. Basically just time and volunteering, but nothing financial or tangible. Does anyone know what a junior club gets if a kid's drafted?[/quote]

A bag of footys if they kick a 9 pointer in the nab cup...

 

[cos789]

We all know the history & like it or not, the WAFL/SANFL/VFL were the top tier & today they arent.

Exactly my point. The state leagues have been the premier football competition up until the introduction of the AFL. They have lost the major part of spectator support but the state leagues cover all of Australia and controll all of the football other than the AFL. Until the AFL assumes responsibility for grassroots football the second tier leagues will remain more important than the shgowpiece that is the AFL.

The point about the Sheffield Shield is that it has been a very successful breeding ground for test cricketers. Why do they need to be promoted?

What has this statement got anything to do with football? We all know people aren't interested enough in cricket to attend interstate cricket. People still attend second tier competitions around Australia.

Why do they need to be promoted?

You don't need much intelligence to appreciate the fact that strong second tier competitions means healthy football and healthy football is good for the AFL. The AFL needs the second tier competitions and the second tier competitions cannot exist on thin air.

Why do you think the AFL created the NEAFL ? To create a pathway, from grassroots to AFL.

And why wouldn't you promote state leagues. The WAFL recently undertook a promotion which saw the Westh Perth draw 8,400 spectators against low drawing Subiaco. How about that as a promotion. It was so good the AFL got on board.

.

 

[Kwality]

While I agree that the AFL has a limited responsibility to look after 2nd tier clubs, the transfer fee system currently paid to state league clubs is pathetic. When one considers the cost of developing players and running a state league club the money gotten back for the effort is peanuts, especially considering how much these players are later worth in real terms - ie look how many millions of dollars float around the AFL world in tv, sponsorship etc.

Many state league clubs are only just keeping their heads above water - yes you can criticise (to some extent) salary caps etc. but if clubs got paid real money for the effort of producing players it'd go a long way to keeping everyone happy.

Not many AFL clubs making a profit, the AFL made a loss last year - where do you want to take the money from?
Fine idea dave but you are dreamin'.

 

[Kwality]

Exactly my point. The state leagues have been the premier football competition up until the introduction of the AFL. They have lost the major part of spectator support but the state leagues cover all of Australia and controll all of the football other than the AFL. Until the AFL assumes responsibility for grassroots football the second tier leagues will remain more important than the shgowpiece that is the AFL.



What has this statement got anything to do with football? We all know people aren't interested enough in cricket to attend interstate cricket. People still attend second tier competitions around Australia.



You don't need much intelligence to appreciate the fact that strong second tier competitions means healthy football and healthy football is good for the AFL. The AFL needs the second tier competitions and the second tier competitions cannot exist on thin air.

Why do you think the AFL created the NEAFL ? To create a pathway, from grassroots to AFL.

And why wouldn't you promote state leagues. The WAFL recently undertook a promotion which saw the Westh Perth draw 8,400 spectators against low drawing Subiaco. How about that as a promotion. It was so good the AFL got on board.

.

Clearly the 2nd tier needs money.

 

[Papa G]

Does anyone know how much cash the AFL provides to run TAC Cup?

Would it not be fair/ a good idea to provide that funding on a pro rata basis ie 9/16ths to run their under 18 comps? I'm not sure how you could stop the SANFL/WAFL clubs misdirecting the funds into other areas of the club, but if you could, wouldn't this be a fair and win/win for everybody?

The SANFL/Wafl clubs get a big injection of funds for junior development and the AFL is looking after what they only really care about, draftable teenagers.

 

[cos789]

where do you want to take the money from?

Simply divide the income pie into percentages - players, development. grassroots, second tier, capital etc.

.

 

[The_Wookie]

Does anyone know how much cash the AFL provides to run TAC Cup?

Would it not be fair/ a good idea to provide that funding on a pro rata basis ie 9/16ths to run their under 18 comps? I'm not sure how you could stop the SANFL/WAFL clubs misdirecting the funds into other areas of the club, but if you could, wouldn't this be a fair and win/win for everybody?

The SANFL/Wafl clubs get a big injection of funds for junior development and the AFL is looking after what they only really care about, draftable teenagers.

According to the 2012 WAFC report, the WAFC recieved 2.1 million from the AFL. (The SANFL report is not yet released) This is separate to the AFL Club distributions. Club grants from the WAFL were between 370k - 380k (sourced from Claremonts and East Fremantles annual reports), meaning that, theoretically at least, the AFL contributes half of the club grant.

How much money goes into the TAC Cup may never be known now, AFL Victoria is a wholly owned entity of the AFL since 2011 and hasnt produced an annual report since that i can find. However according to Football Victoria (now AFL Vic) in 2010, they spent 4.7 million on underage comps they run (which would be the TAC Cup), while spending 2.09 million on their senior leagues (the VFL). Auskick cost another 1.7 million. The AFL contribution to the state body in that year was 6.01 million. (out of a 17 million budget)

The same year the SANFL reported 1.46 million in grants from the AFL (not including the AFL clubs which returned 955,000 to the SANFL in 2010). The WAFC reported a 1.75 million AFL distribution in 2010. This is separate to the AFL club distributions.

In terms of proportionality this means that the SANFL received 24% and the WAFC 29% of the Football Victoria Distribution of 6.01 million in 2010.

Now, the draft of 2010 saw 47 Victorians drafts (44 from TAC Cup, 3 VFL), 14 from WA, and 12 from SA. In terms of proportion this means that WA had 29% amd SA 25.5% of draftees. (not including rookie listed players) - Ignoring Rookie listed players for a moment - this appears nearly spot on in terms of funding proportions per draftee.

Including the rookie draft (and ignoring AFL recruits) adds another 19 Victorians, 11 West Australians and 13 South Australians.

Total 69 Victoria, 30 WA, 28 SA.
Proportion 43% WA, 40% SA (of Victorian Recruits). In total more than 50 players were taken from the TAC Cup competition in 2010.

All of the above information is from Club and League annual reports. You can search for them online or you can pull it from my online storage here. Hope this ha helped

 

[Papa G]

I guess in terms of outcomes (players drafted) those figures make sense, but in terms of dollars per club the TAC clubs appear to get twice as much funding as the WAFL and SANFL clubs.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

The AFL spends a s**t load on development but for some reason likes to hide how much on individual projects and where it spends it details. Probably because of the politics involved. mind you the game development part of the AFL's annual report has gone from 12 pages in 2006 to 26 in 2011.

From the 2007-11 Next Generation
SECURING THE FUTURE OF AUSTRALIAN FOOTBALL
document released September 2006 and explains how AFL intended to spend/use the expected $1.4bil of revenue it expected to earn between 2007 and 2011 financial years.

page 4
Putting the plan in action
The Australian
Football Community

Our strategy is to grow the game at all levels, across all communities, to make Australian Football the game
of choice for players, and for supporters.

To that end, a record investment of $208 million or 15 per cent of total available funds will be spent in game development, in football’s heartland and in new markets. More than $100 million has been allocated to accelerate the growth of Australian Football in NSW and Queensland. [prior 5 years 2002-06 was $130 mil per the power point presentation document]

This total investment — an increase of 60 per cent on 2002-2006 figures — will accelerate the development of our game in schools, clubs and NAB AFL Auskick centres throughout Australia. Additional resources will enhance our programs for Indigenous, Multicultural, Female, Recreational and International segments. We have a target of 700,000 participants by 2011, an increase on current numbers of 25 per cent.

The AFL will also increase its funding of Talent Identification Programs and maintain its push to make Australian Football the first choice of elite athletes.

The AFL will expand its support for the 60,000-plus volunteers whose passion and community volunteer spirit has nurtured the growth of the game.

page 10 they expand on the above goals.

The Australian Football Community

Principles: To build a stronger relationship with our supporters at all levels; to continue to expand the national footprint of our game; to grow our existing supporter base; to develop new markets; to provide more opportunities to participate in our game.

• The AFL will provide the biggest ever funding package to support and accelerate the development of the game.

• The AFL will allocate a record $208 million to game development between 2007-2011 representing an increase of 60% on 2002-2006. This investment has a target participation level of 700,000 by 2011 — an increase of 25 per cent on 2006 forecasts.

• This funding will be split between National Programs, State and Territory Grants, and a fund to develop new markets.

• The AFL will work in partnership with State and Territory affiliates across the country to support the work of community clubs, AFL Auskick clinics and schools in metropolitan, regional and country centres. Already more than 2500 community clubs field more than 11,000 teams in competitions throughout metropolitan and regional Australia and 2450 AFL Auskick centres introduce Australian Football to more than 140,000 children of primary school age and their parents and families.

• The $208 million in funding will be used to:
• Deliver a more comprehensive schools program to capture the next generations of children seeking a fun, safe and healthy sporting activity.

• Provide more direct support for junior leagues and clubs as the nurseries for metropolitan and country football.

• Promote and develop AFL Recreational football, women's football and implement a national Multicultural program to provide a fun, healthy physical option and reach sections of the community that are not yet engaged in our game.

• Upgrade and develop community facilities to link participation growth and deliver a quality environment that enhances the enjoyment of the game for players, officials and spectators involved in metropolitan and country football.

• Maximise the growth of the game in the traditional football states while also investing more in NSW and Queensland where much of the new growth is predicted to come from.

• The AFL will work in partnership with Federal, State and Local Governments, schools and clubs to improve the quality environments for those participating in our game.

• The AFL will also increase its funding of Talent Identification Programs and maintain its push to make Australian Football the first choice of elite athletes.

• The AFL will expand its support and provide high quality programs and acknowledgement for the 60,000-plus volunteers whose passion and community volunteer spirit has nurtured the growth of the game.

------

In the
Club funding & equalisation strategy 2012‐16
Presentation to the Media
26 September 2011

document the AFL said they had / would spend (page 3)
Game Development $138m (2007-11) $190m (2012-16) +$52m (increase)

so they pulled a big chunk of the Northern development 2007-11 monies and ploughed them into the new clubs
(page 4)
New Markets Funding $74m (2007-11) $65m (2012-16) ($9m) (decrease) • Agreed new markets funding GC & GWS outside of Base & Bonus

----
Their goal was to get 706,000 participants by the end of 2011 - according to their 2011 annual report it was 790,905.

On page 120 of the annual report the give the 10 year comparisons. The $138m game development grants are made up of
$25.852m (2007) + $25.871m (2008) + $27.305m (2009) + $29.129m (2010) + $30.750m (2011)

 

[royaldave]

Not many AFL clubs making a profit, the AFL made a loss last year - where do you want to take the money from?
Fine idea dave but you are dreamin'.

Its about priorities isn't it.

Millions upon millions is spent keeping basket case clubs afloat or "growing" the game in QLD and NSW.

However just an extra million divided between the 9 WAFL clubs each year, for example, would make a huge difference.

 

[Hard_to_Beat]

Its about priorities isn't it.

Millions upon millions is spent keeping basket case clubs afloat or "growing" the game in QLD and NSW.

However just an extra million divided between the 9 WAFL clubs each year, for example, would make a huge difference.

The spoilt kid is whinging again.

You were gifted your strength champ.

You didn't earn a thing.