Asia Kim Jong Un's North Korea

[spinynorman]

I'd be eager to hear your explanation as to how this is the West's fault, or at least it's contribution.

I mean, it's an incredibly long history, but to footnote, it's worth nothing the very partition of Korea was arbitrarily decided by members of the US State Department who were worried about a Korea in the Soviet sphere of influence. The subsequent war saw the North get absolutely levelled, becoming the most bombed country in history at the time, with pretty much every significant building destroyed and killing up to 20% of its population. The psychological effect of this was enormous (and the North has maintained a significant military budget, especially after the Indonesian genocide of the 1960s); the economic effect is still felt to this day. Nonetheless, up until the 1970s, North Korea was doing the better of the two Koreas.

This began to slow by the 1980s, and things became dire after the USSR collapsed in 1991 and the North was left with China as its only major ally. Floods in the mid-1990s led to famine. There was a potential for breakthrough for peace and maybe even reunification in 2000 with Clinton as President (you may remember a united Korea Olympic team in Sydney in 2000), but Bush put an end to that and put further sanctions on the North to ensure they remained in poverty. A similar opportunity in 2018 between Kim Jong Un and Moon Jae-in was torpedoed by an initially supportive Donald Trump who got cold feet when he listened to his warmongering advisors.

 

[Cmarsh]

I mean, it's an incredibly long history, but to footnote, it's worth nothing the very partition of Korea was arbitrarily decided by members of the US State Department who were worried about a Korea in the Soviet sphere of influence. The subsequent war saw the North get absolutely levelled, becoming the most bombed country in history at the time, with pretty much every significant building destroyed and killing up to 20% of its population. The psychological effect of this was enormous (and the North has maintained a significant military budget, especially after the Indonesian genocide of the 1960s); the economic effect is still felt to this day. Nonetheless, up until the 1970s, North Korea was doing the better of the two Koreas.

This began to slow by the 1980s, and things became dire after the USSR collapsed in 1991 and the North was left with China as its only major ally. Floods in the mid-1990s led to famine. There was a potential for breakthrough for peace and maybe even reunification in 2000 with Clinton as President (you may remember a united Korea Olympic team in Sydney in 2000), but Bush put an end to that and put further sanctions on the North to ensure they remained in poverty. A similar opportunity in 2018 between Kim Jong Un and Moon Jae-in was torpedoed by an initially supportive Donald Trump who got cold feet when he listened to his warmongering advisors.

Some things I wasn't aware of. Thanks for your insights.

 

[FredLeDeux]

It's NK laws.
Sad but true.
I'm not arguing, just agreeing that although sad it's a country that imposes those laws and has every right to.
I would say breaking those laws is suicide.

In Australia most laws broken get you a slap on the wrist, in Queensland breaking laws as a teenager gets you the opportunity to steal cars every day until your 18. Reckon a lot of cultures would think we are crazy.

It's a dictatorship, so, no it doesn't.

 

[DaTBird187]

*BTS

I guess I would be sent to a labour camp for life in NK for knowing that.

Yeah listening to BTK would have meant some whole other s**t.

 

[Rob R]

I mean, it's an incredibly long history, but to footnote, it's worth nothing the very partition of Korea was arbitrarily decided by members of the US State Department who were worried about a Korea in the Soviet sphere of influence. The subsequent war saw the North get absolutely levelled, becoming the most bombed country in history at the time, with pretty much every significant building destroyed and killing up to 20% of its population. The psychological effect of this was enormous (and the North has maintained a significant military budget, especially after the Indonesian genocide of the 1960s); the economic effect is still felt to this day. Nonetheless, up until the 1970s, North Korea was doing the better of the two Koreas.

This began to slow by the 1980s, and things became dire after the USSR collapsed in 1991 and the North was left with China as its only major ally. Floods in the mid-1990s led to famine. There was a potential for breakthrough for peace and maybe even reunification in 2000 with Clinton as President (you may remember a united Korea Olympic team in Sydney in 2000), but Bush put an end to that and put further sanctions on the North to ensure they remained in poverty. A similar opportunity in 2018 between Kim Jong Un and Moon Jae-in was torpedoed by an initially supportive Donald Trump who got cold feet when he listened to his warmongering advisors.

And in reality
1) Russia and the US agreed on the partition (Russian troops were already there)
2) The Russians blocked a UN proposal on the way forward
3) The North Koreans refused to participate in free elections to decide the future
4) North Korea launched an unprovoked invasion of the South
5) Sanctions were introduced by many nations after it was discovered that Noeth Korea had breached its international agreements throughout the late 90s and early 2000s
6) Trumps talks were undone after the South Koreans spotted that yet again North Korea was working on weapons despite promises to the contrary


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[Frank Grimes]

Anyway, I found this investigation interesting and very sad.



It says a lot that there are citizens hoping for war, not because they fear South Korea or the 'evil West', but in the hope that they lose and bring regime change.

 

[spinynorman]

And in reality
1) Russia and the US agreed on the partition (Russian troops were already there)

Yes, the Soviets didn’t go beyond that point as they were still under the belief that their relationship with the US was cooperative and didn’t want to get dragged in to another conflict. Either way, neither the US nor the Soviets were the Korean people.

2) The Russians blocked a UN proposal on the way forward
3) The North Koreans refused to participate in free elections to decide the future
4) North Korea launched an unprovoked invasion of the South

There were elections in both the North and South of Korea through 1946-47. The legislative elections in the South had low turnout and were enormously rife with electoral fraud and the workings of organised crime. The elections in the North for the People’s Committee had enormous turnout, but were criticised because candidates were chosen by representatives of civil society, preventing former Japanese collaborators from running.

Australia and Canada both had enormous misgivings over the UN plan (rubber stamping the American plan that would circumvent the Soviets). The elections happened without any consultation with North Korea, and there were enormous protests throughout the South. The protests at Jeju Island saw protests escalate into the South Korean military state slaughter 10% of the population of the island. The election was boycotted by left wing, centrist and even hardline conservative parties, so it was a choice between the autocratic Syngman Rhee and allies to him.

There were numerous skirmishes on the border (probably an understatement) throughout 1949, including the South occupying North Korean land - the US acknowledged the South was the provocateur in most of these.

The view of the North was that Korea had existed since antiquity as a single state, and that the South under Rhee would be hostile towards peaceful reunification. They didn’t see this as an “invasion” (Korea can’t invade Korea), but rightly or wrongly as an extension of anti-imperialist struggle against colonial power.

5) Sanctions were introduced by many nations after it was discovered that Noeth Korea had breached its international agreements throughout the late 90s and early 2000s
6) Trumps talks were undone after the South Koreans spotted that yet again North Korea was working on weapons despite promises to the contrary

The South Koreans had adopted a Sunshine policy towards the North in 1998 and talks toward normalisation had been underway. The change of the American presidency and Bush’s hostility was the main issue, and why an increasingly isolated North felt the need toward developing a nuclear program (initially for energy).

The North Korean proposal during the summits was for the North to end their nuclear program in return for the US to lift sanctions. Trump didn’t agree, Kim resumed the program. North and South continued diplomatic talks to varying success until the election of the current South Korean president, who has been far more hawkish than his predecessor.

 

[Zidane98]

The reality is the Kim regime survives only because a) Kim Jong has nukes and b) China supports / supplies them with token support from Russia.