Monfries and Ryder may separate from Gang of 34

[SwampRat]

Pre season is the important one. If Ryder gets a decent preseason we might see a breakout. I am happy taking deals, Monfries/Ryder out gives many opportunities to Amon Neade Butcher Shaw. The time of the suspensions doesn't overly bother me unless they start missing up to August.

If they are banned over preseason they won't be able to train with the group (I think).

 

[raptalia]

I have plenty of reason to doubt Vitamins McVeigh. His story was horseshit from the start, he tried to defend it but pouring a bucket of s**t on Kyle Reimers, who started the ball rolling by explaining to Damien Barrett the unusual practices that went on at Essendon in an interview on ch 9 either in December 2012 or January 2013. Vitamins McVeigh went very quiet about 5 or 6 months after the story broke. Vitamins McVeigh wasnt invited back by Ch 7 to be a panel member in 2014 on Game Day after being on there for a couple of years, because he didnt have any credibility.

Yeah well who knows. As I posted the more you read the more smoke gets in your eyes. I am more convinced than I was six months ago that something went on at Essendon and that does not give me a warm and glowing feeling about this.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

In March 2013 Cronulla not the NRL stood down Shane Flanagan and sacked the CEO Darren Mooney along with the Head Trainer, the Physiotherapist and most importantly the team doctor Dave Givney who was the man who initially spilt the beans on Stephen Dank. On or about the same time Cronulla launched it's internal investigation which was overseen by Tricia Kavanagh the ASADA Deputy Chair. The Cronulla players were then counselled to plead guilty after consulting Richard Redman who is an ex ASADA senior counsel.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sp...593389712?nk=060a0db594bc126f335373e2ce7d747d

Essendon on the other hand initiated an investigation in February 2013 but has admitted nothing despite the fact that Stephen Dank was advising Essendon in 2012 after working with Cronulla. Essendon are asking us to believe that the same man working at two different clubs on sports enhancement programs used a banned substance at one but not at the other. Essendon are also asking us to believe that they did nothing wrong despite asking for an AFL investigation. If there was nothing to fear why ask to be investigated? It is also true that Dr Bruce Reid raised similar concerns with the Essendon Board as Dr Givney had raised at Cronulla. Essendon may be innocent and they deserve the benefit of the doubt but the more you read the more smoke that gets into your eyes.

I am well aware of what Cronulla and the NRL did and the investigation undertaken by ex ASADA deputy Dr Tricia Kavanagh.

I even started a thread on TPFP about it to show it as a comparison with Essendon, that after Kavanagh's report, Dr Givney was sacked despite him blowing the whistle on Dank. I wrote over there and several places here on bigfooty that IMO it was very wrong that Givney was sacked. Under your old alias as matrix, I think you were the only one who replied to the thread for a couple of months over at TPFP.

Dr Reid at Essendon has gotten away with not performing his duties which is a disgrace when compared to what Dr Givney did. But Reid's threat to take the AFL to court has saved him because the AFL dont want to be publicly embarrassed.

In March 2013 there were two big differences in the way the investigations into Cronulla and Essendon were going.

1. Was the players attitude and how publicly disrespectful of the whole process the Cronulla players were whereas as the Essendon players weren't seen publicly like the Cronulla players and they were reported to be fully co-operating with ASADA officials. As I said before I was in Sydney that week and Rugby League greats were appalled by the way Cronulla players approached their interviews with ASADA. I saw several greats criticise them, but I clearly remember ex Bulldogs great Steve Mortimer being very scathing of them.

2.The internal reports. Kavanagh's said the players were given banned peptides CJC-1295 and GHRP-6. Ziggy Switkowski's report never named drugs but talked about "a pharmacologically experimental environment never adequately controlled or challenged" at Essendon.

I'm not judging Cronulla vs Essendon as clubs and their actions.

Ultimately the players will receive penalties based on their actions - when the drugs were administered and - how they co-operated with ASADA. that is what I have been concentrating on to try and work out when any penalty will back dated to. And all we can really do is look at the actions of Cronulla players and the ASADA penalty and try and compare them to the Essendon players, to get an idea when Paddy and Gus' backdating might start.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Thanks Wookie.

So RussellEbertHandball if we use the NRL template, they received a 2 year ban, discounted by 12 months and backdated to end of investigation Nov 2013.

For Essendon timeline, 2 year ban, 12 month discount for pleading guilty would mean ban until Mar 15. However there'd be a strong possibility that the Hird/Essendope legal challenge would count against them (unnecessary delays).

13 June the SCNs were sent out. The appeal was lodged and then heard with a ruling coming out on the 19th of Sept. Effectively 3 months.

March plus 3 months = June 2.

10 week in season ban.

I would say June is very much in the ball park. Which means no training with Port or any other WADA compliant sporting team or organisation for Paddy and Gus. And that is why I go on about having lots of ruckmen. We have plenty of small forwards to cover Monfries. We dont have lots to cover Ryder and a June - start training, Redden, start playing SANFL in June or later and if Lobbe or Jacko go down for a few weeks.

 

[raptalia]

In fairness to Bruce Reid he did write to the then Essendon CEO Paul Hamilton and James Hird in January 2012 with reservations about what was going on. The text of that letter is in the link below. You would hope that a club that had the care of it's players at heart would listen to the club medical officer when he expressed his concerns. In all of the material that has been made public thus far I find this the most damning piece of evidence. The link below is not sourced from the media but from the AFL website.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-08-21/full-text-of-dr-bruce-reids-letter

In reference to AOD- 9604 which Bruce Reid specifically mentions in his letter. Wada and ASADA have said this...

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...ssendons-defence/story-e6frf9l6-1226638953414

Maybe I am mis reading this but I think the evidence from Dr Reid's point of view is pretty damming.

 

[RossFC]

If Paddy and Monfries get banned from training with the boys during the pre-season is there a way we could put them with the Maggies boys or is that illegal?

 

[Holden Hillbilly]

They will have to train as individuals.

Plans for them would be in place already.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

If Paddy and Monfries get banned from training with the boys during the pre-season is there a way we could put them with the Maggies boys or is that illegal?

If you are serving a Wada code penalty you cannot play in any competition that is affliated with the sporting body who gave you a penalty or any other wada compliant sport.

Its why when Armstrong went public he still lied about doping in his 2009+2010 comeback years because he wanted his life penalty reduced to 8 years - he says he admitted being dirty up until July 2005 when he won his last TDF and first retirement so back dated it then means from July 2013 he could compete in triathlons. Every major triathlon is affiliated to the internatial body TIU so as Wada signatories they have to apply his Usada /UIC life ban and not let Armstrong compete. Usada didnt buy his BS that he didnt dope in 2009 +2010.

As the NFL havent signed the Wada code Gus and Paddy can probably go and join Parramatta Eels star Jarryd Hayne and go and train with an NFL team.

 

[Phhht]

I am not talking about the Essendon players my focus is on the Essendon FC administration and the Essendon Board. It is Essendon FC and James Hird that denied any wrong doing and mounted a court case and Hird who has appealed the decision not the players. The players may be able to argue that the Essendon Board's decision to deny any wrong doing then mount a court case was beyond their control and prolonged proceedings therefore any bans, if there are any, should take into account that delay. The players may also be able to argue that they were unaware of what was being used.

I have nothing but sympathy for the Essendon players as I prefer to believe they were duped by certain people. Mark McVeigh is on record as saying he believed that he was being injected with a vitamin supplement and I have no reason to doubt that.

What will happen is anyone's guess but the activity of the Essendon Football Club has not helped the process. If there is a case to answer it is people within the Essendon administration who instigated and orchestrated Mr Dank's programme and the Board who should be held to account. I hope that the players are not the ones who suffer. If any penalty is handed down it should target the Essendon Football Club not the players but that is not the way it works. WADA hold athletes accountable for what goes into their body and if proved will expect the AFL to hand out appropriate penalties. We will have to wait and see what happens.

Ok, couple of things.

" i am not talking about the Essendon players my focus is on the Essendon FC administration and the Essendon Board"

Your initial reply to my post referenced what I believe will happen to the penalties/bans against the Players. I didnt reference Essendon the club. Personally i dont give a rats arse what happens to Essendon FC now. I care about what happens to the players, specifically 2 in Paddy and Gus. Hence my post on what I believe will happen following the NRL players template. Your response was to my hypothetical timeline about the players hence why i took your posts to be referring to the whole Essendon player penalties.

2nd i disagree with you about the players not being penalised and imo are certainly responsible, at least to a certain extent. Especially the senior group of guys like 'Spike'. Yes even Gus and Paddy should bear some responsibility. All this hullabaloo about players being duped or misled. It sounds great for a defence that minimises the damage but lets be real here. How many times would have people like Watson, Hille, McVeigh, Fletcher, Monfries, Ryder, Stanton attended AFL run seminars on the intracacies of the whole PEDS and illicit drugs? Where was the leadership from this experienced group of players? Severely lacking it seems.

From the minute you are drafted, you get counselled in the whole drugs scenario. The players attend seminars every year about this. Its drummed into them, YOU the athlete are ultimately responsible for what goes into your body.
Remember the Essendon doping saga was over a significant period. Its not like it was one or two accidental mixups. It involved hundreds of injections. The players were obviously concerned becoz by their own admission they asked serious questions about the whole scheme.

And yup they may have been misled by certain people that painted the whole scheme as cutting edge but fully legal. But none of them, not one player decided to double check. Despite the many counsellings that EVERY AFL footballer has received that that is exactly what they should have done. Instead they preferred to accept the word of these 'experts' without a scrap of supporting documentation. Oh they were also then asked by Essendon the club to sign consent forms/waivers. We have reports of players noticing significant changes to body shapes after weeks on the scheme.

HELLO, ANYBODY HOME. DING DING DING yes thats an alarm going off.

Its like buying a second hand car. You go to a guy (Dank/Robinson) that one of your mates (Hird/bomber) reckons is a straight shooter.

"Has the engine been modified to the point that it isnt street legal"

"Nah, she's all good. Stock standard but running my own blend of legal fuel"

"Cool"

You start her up, 10 foot flame trails come out the exhaust, the engine rumbles like a v8 supercar and as you jam it in first you hit 100k/hr within 3 sec.

3 moths later, after you've wrapped her round a tree nearly killing a pedestrian you complain to the policeman that hey the guy who sold it to you said she was all legal!

But nah, easier to bury your head in the sand and say nup no issue, these 'sports scientists' said everything was beaut.

Its the same as the 'beloved' doc in all this. He has concerns that he is being phased out of this scheme. Doesnt know whats being administered to the players apparently. So concerned that he writes an email to management. Then thats it, nothing else. Thats bullshit, he should have pushed harder to expose the dodgy practice. He was the club doctor after all wasnt he? But nup, he did his bit, wrote an email and then sat on his hands. He should have put his care for the players at a higher level than his love of the club.

I honestly believe the players were naive in this. So too were some, probably most of the Essendon administration. But naivety shouldnt be an adequate reason to absolve them from punishment. They should get penalised hard.

But they wont. As my earlier post pointed out, i reckon ASADA and the AFL will bring out the 'discounts' and 'backdating' that will put the players out of the game for the minimum amount of time that they can get away with. They will base it similarly to the NRL player penalties with some jiggling to fit the Essendon timeline (delays due to Appeal). And i cant see how WADA can then overrule these.

Sorry, end rant.

 

[SwampRat]

They will have to train as individuals.

Plans for them would be in place already.

On the plus side, they could probably train together.

 

[The_Wookie]

6 months of aerobics oztyle and a fitness first membership.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Jon Pierik from The Age thinks Ryder could be the first Essendon player to break ranks for a fresh start at Port Adelaide.

Ryder could be the first to strike a deal with ASADA

As the show-cause notices have now been issued, Ryder, like all players, has the option of agreeing to a "no significant fault" claim - if ASADA was to offer this. Ryder would waive his show-cause appeal and be placed on the Register of Findings. This would then trigger an infraction notice, but he would waive his right to a hearing before the AFL's anti-doping panel.
A "no significant fault" claim carries a 12-month ban, but the AFL and ASADA would most likely agree on a back-dated suspension, meaning just a handful of matches would be served next season. Given the circumstances, this result would be a favourable one for the Power, who many are already tipping as the 2015 premiership favourite since Ryder came aboard.

Ryder could be the first to strike a deal with ASADA

 

[raptalia]

But they wont. As my earlier post pointed out, i reckon ASADA and the AFL will bring out the 'discounts' and 'backdating' that will put the players out of the game for the minimum amount of time that they can get away with. They will base it similarly to the NRL player penalties with some jiggling to fit the Essendon timeline (delays due to Appeal). And i cant see how WADA can then overrule these.

Sorry, end rant.

That is OK the occasional rant is good for the system and I do not disagree that what you post could happen.

As for WADA they cannot over rule the AFL's decisions but they can appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport which they have done in other sports . As an example in November 2013 Fédération Internationale de Motocyclisme (FIM) imposed a one month ban on Australian rider Anthony West. WADA appealed that penalty and the Court increased the ban to 18 months which was backdated to the time of the positive drug test, less the one month provisional ban that had been served. This had the same effect as the Cronulla situation you outline because it meant that West was free to ride almost immediately. What the court did do though was to invalidate any results that West had obtained in the interim period. The point is that because the AFL is a signatory to the Internation drugs code WADA to have the right to appeal any ban imposed. How the Court would react, if indeed an appeal was lodged, is anyone's guess.

The AFL and the NRL are signatories to the World Anti Doping Code and as such are bound by the articles of that code however a few weeks back there was a suggestion that both the AFL and NRL should ditch WADA and formulate there own drugs code and procedures. It was all bs but the important thing about that suggestion is that it bought a sharp response from Peter Dutton, the Federal Minister for Sport and that is outlined in the link below. Obviously the Federal Government is holding a gun at the head of the major codes and expects them to be WADA compliant.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/australian-codes-warned-on-wada-breakaway-20140619-zsfd7.html

 

[Phhht]

Yup, way too much money from the feds to piss them off.

And it will be interesting to see what WADA do if the AFL impose a similar ban to which the NRL players got. (Adjusted of course for different timelines and delays). I just think they, WADA have backed themselves into a corner.

 

[Shaxx Attaxx]

Correct me if I am wrong but didnt saad do his stuff all himself...where essendons medical said it was a ok?...

I know ignorance is not a defense but it would help wouldnt it?

I think you're right. I'm pretty sure he did something as simple as having a run of the mill pre workout that you can buy from any supp store. Could be wrong. Very very tough lesson for Saad. just goes to show that there's a huge difference between a banned substance and steroids.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

I think you're right. I'm pretty sure he did something as simple as having a run of the mill pre workout that you can buy from any supp store. Could be wrong. Very very tough lesson for Saad. just goes to show that there's a huge difference between a banned substance and steroids.

No it goes to show - get a positive drug test from your urine or blood sample and you are ****ed. Its an easy kill for tany National Anti Doping body.

If the NAD body has to go to an investigation then you have plausible deniability and all the legal bullshit lawyers can manufacture to reduce penalties.

 

[raptalia]

The article linked below appeared overnight. I wondered what happened to Jon Pierik who used to write on cricket in the Adelaide press.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...strike-a-deal-with-asada-20141018-1184sm.html

Interesting that Shane Charter aka Dr Ageless gets a mention in Pierik's piece. There is an interesting reference to James Hird at the end of the article below. Certain AFL footballers are obviously not on the Charter Christmas Card List.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/dr-ageless-switches-to-surrogacy-service-20130223-2eyog.html

 

[Chachi]

With all these possible bans, is there any likelihood that we would or could sue the Bombers civilly? For their actions leading to bans.

 

[raman]

With all these possible bans, is there any likelihood that we would or could sue the Bombers civilly? For their actions leading to bans.

We couldn't very well do it with Ryder but I guess it's possible re: Monfries. Then again having taken on Ryder knowing the full story probably makes it harder to appear genuinely aggrieved about Monfries.

I've always said I'd rather just threaten to sue until the AFL gives us a hush hush priority pick.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

We couldn't very well do it with Ryder but I guess it's possible re: Monfries. Then again having taken on Ryder knowing the full story probably makes it harder to appear genuinely aggrieved about Monfries.

I've always said I'd rather just threaten to sue until the AFL gives us a hush hush priority pick.

They may as well just give us our choice of a GWS player and cut out the middle man.

 

[raman]

They may as well just give us our choice of a GWS player and cut out the middle man.

Hmmm... tough choice.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Hmmm... tough choice.

Three guesses and the first two don't count?

 

[Jason K]

Three guesses and the first two don't count?

Heath Shaw?

 

[Adz2332]

Not that I care but ess wouldn't be to happy if we cut deals and they spilled their guts.
Surely wouldnt help ess case etc

 

[Enviable Tradition]

On the flip side I'll be pissed if Essendon players concede 1st and as a result get better deals than Gus and Paddy