Monfries and Ryder may separate from Gang of 34

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A couple of good articles in The Age.

Jon Pierik and Matt Murnane
Essendon supplements saga: ASADA hits back over 'player welfare'
The AFL Players Association confirmed on Thursday the 34 Essendon players re-issued with show-cause notices last week would not contest them and wanted the independent Anti-Doping Rule Violation Panel to assess the evidence within seven days. And ASADA chief Ben McDevitt then fired back.

He suggested the AFLPA had failed the players in terms of their welfare in 2012 when the Bombers' supplements program was in full swing.

"In the six months I have been at ASADA I have had the club, the coach, the AFL Players' Association, various other legal entities, plus other interested parties all voice their views as to the management of these matters," McDevitt said.

"While all claim to represent the interests of the players and/or Australian sport, the advice as to remedial actions varies dramatically.

"In my role as protector of clean athletes in Australia, my advice to them is that if they want to act in the best interests of the players they should review the 12,000 pages of evidence and follow due process.

"I only wish that such interest in player welfare had been present in 2012."

An ASADA statement said: "ASADA chief executive officer Ben McDevitt said ASADA will not be dictated to by the AFL Players' Association, its lawyers, or anybody else."
Essendon supplements saga: ASADA hits back over 'player welfare'


Greg Baum's
Bombers leap from frying pan, beware fire
The fact that the reissued "show cause" notices have been painstakingly tailored to the circumstances of each player suggests that the charges also would have to be heard one-by-one. This matters more than might be supposed. Under the WADA code, if two more more players from one team are found guilty of a doping violation, the ruling body "shall" impose sanctions on the team.

It would not be enough for the AFL to say that it already had punished the Bombers by expelling them from last year's finals. That was not because of proven doping violations, but for sloppy governance.

Do not forget that whatever the AFL does, and the tribunal, WADA is watching, and can appeal. The AFL says only that it is not thinking that far ahead. This long, cumbersome and gruelling process has been embarrassing for Essendon and the AFL, but also for ASADA and WADA and the code that they aim to uphold.

Generally, the WADA code is hopelessly inarticulate and inadequate when contemplating team sport. It defines it as "a sport in which is the substitution of players is permitted during competition". Individual sport is "any sport that is not a team sport"

But nothing about this case is uncomplicated. When the tribunal convenes, the AFL's standard of proof will be "comfortable satisfaction", which pretty much is applied only to sport. It sits somewhere between "beyond reasonable doubt" and "balance of probability", but what does that mean?
Bombers leap from frying pan, beware fire
 
Personally I feel very uneasy about Monfries and Ryder remaining with the main group of Essendon players - I don't think they are getting completely unbiased information. Essendon and the AFLPA both have a huge conflict of interest when providing assistance to the players.

Also I don't get the impression that the players completely understand the gravity of their situation. It is not enough for them to believe that nothing illegal was given to them, or even that they have been "duped" - they essentially are relying on ASADA not having sufficient evidence to warrant suspensions (keeping in mind ASADA organised an independent review and legal advice prior to proceeding to show cause notices). Historically, once a case gets to this point, the athlete is usually found guilty.

From a Port point of view, it is a potential disaster to have spent our two best picks on Ryder if it then ends up the suspensions are the full 2 year length. I know we were well aware of the risk when trading, but I think if he misses more than next year we will have lost out on this.
 
Further to REH's post I am not sure how accurate this article is but it outlines the procedure. The latest is that ASADA will not agree to an AFLPA request to expedite proceedings so we may have to go through most of the 11 steps outlined in the article. If that is the case this will not be 'over by Christmas' as was the popular catch phrase exactly 100 years ago.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...ndon-supplements-scandal-20141023-11akoy.html
 

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A couple of good articles in The Age.

Jon Pierik and Matt Murnane
Essendon supplements saga: ASADA hits back over 'player welfare'
The AFL Players Association confirmed on Thursday the 34 Essendon players re-issued with show-cause notices last week would not contest them and wanted the independent Anti-Doping Rule Violation Panel to assess the evidence within seven days. And ASADA chief Ben McDevitt then fired back.

He suggested the AFLPA had failed the players in terms of their welfare in 2012 when the Bombers' supplements program was in full swing.

"In the six months I have been at ASADA I have had the club, the coach, the AFL Players' Association, various other legal entities, plus other interested parties all voice their views as to the management of these matters," McDevitt said.

"While all claim to represent the interests of the players and/or Australian sport, the advice as to remedial actions varies dramatically.

"In my role as protector of clean athletes in Australia, my advice to them is that if they want to act in the best interests of the players they should review the 12,000 pages of evidence and follow due process.

"I only wish that such interest in player welfare had been present in 2012."

An ASADA statement said: "ASADA chief executive officer Ben McDevitt said ASADA will not be dictated to by the AFL Players' Association, its lawyers, or anybody else."
Essendon supplements saga: ASADA hits back over 'player welfare'


Greg Baum's
Bombers leap from frying pan, beware fire
The fact that the reissued "show cause" notices have been painstakingly tailored to the circumstances of each player suggests that the charges also would have to be heard one-by-one. This matters more than might be supposed. Under the WADA code, if two more more players from one team are found guilty of a doping violation, the ruling body "shall" impose sanctions on the team.

It would not be enough for the AFL to say that it already had punished the Bombers by expelling them from last year's finals. That was not because of proven doping violations, but for sloppy governance.

Do not forget that whatever the AFL does, and the tribunal, WADA is watching, and can appeal. The AFL says only that it is not thinking that far ahead. This long, cumbersome and gruelling process has been embarrassing for Essendon and the AFL, but also for ASADA and WADA and the code that they aim to uphold.

Generally, the WADA code is hopelessly inarticulate and inadequate when contemplating team sport. It defines it as "a sport in which is the substitution of players is permitted during competition". Individual sport is "any sport that is not a team sport"

But nothing about this case is uncomplicated. When the tribunal convenes, the AFL's standard of proof will be "comfortable satisfaction", which pretty much is applied only to sport. It sits somewhere between "beyond reasonable doubt" and "balance of probability", but what does that mean?
Bombers leap from frying pan, beware fire

the second article i have been saying the whole time, the AFL wont want this to happen at all, its worse case scenario for them. But i think the players will get light bans and then everything is set up for essendon as a team to get banned, especially because its potentially a sophisticated doping program which is a bit different to crunulla and because of this they really have to ban the club. This is what WADA and ASADA will be watching very closely.
 
Greg Baum's
Bombers leap from frying pan, beware fire
The fact that the reissued "show cause" notices have been painstakingly tailored to the circumstances of each player suggests that the charges also would have to be heard one-by-one. This matters more than might be supposed. Under the WADA code, if two more more players from one team are found guilty of a doping violation, the ruling body "shall" impose sanctions on the team.

I assume there is something in the code about the club the players were at at the time of violation that protects our club given that we now have 2 players?
 
I'm confident that Port did its due diligence when assessing the risk of trading for Ryder.

Having Monfries and Slattery within our club gave us a unique insight into the risk. I don't think it's a coincidence that we were confident to trade for another Essendon player this year, even after the Show Cause Notices were issued.

We would have inside knowledge of the actual evidence outlined in the notices and I have no doubt that we would have been given assurances from the AFL about their likely penalties if there were to be any. (I know they don't hold all the cards regarding penalties, but their response would give a firm indication of a likely outcome.)

My hunch is that while ASADA may be all gung-ho at the moment, they have taken so long to get to this point that they can't really have any substantial evidence to demand anything close to a 2 year ban for 34 players. It's all circumstantial.

If anything, I think the most likely scenario is this will peter out with no player bans at all.

Unless, of course, Dank starts to talk ...
 
I'm confident that Port did its due diligence when assessing the risk of trading for Ryder.

Having Monfries and Slattery within our club gave us a unique insight into the risk. I don't think it's a coincidence that we were confident to trade for another Essendon player this year, even after the Show Cause Notices were issued.

We would have inside knowledge of the actual evidence outlined in the notices and I have no doubt that we would have been given assurances from the AFL about their likely penalties if there were to be any. (I know they don't hold all the cards regarding penalties, but their response would give a firm indication of a likely outcome.)

My hunch is that while ASADA may be all gung-ho at the moment, they have taken so long to get to this point that they can't really have any substantial evidence to demand anything close to a 2 year ban for 34 players. It's all circumstantial.

If anything, I think the most likely scenario is this will peter out with no player bans at all.

Unless, of course, Dank starts to talk ...

Very wishful thinking. A retired federal court judge oversaw the investigation and reviewed the evidence. Whether or not it ends up being enough is one thing, but ASADA aren't going anywhere, and it is going to be very long and painful for those concerned.
 
WADA is set to introduce harsher penalties for first-time cheats effective January of 2015. In Canada, for example, an athlete caught using an illegal substance for the first time could receive a two-year ban. A second offence would result in a life-time suspension. Under WADA’s new rules, it’s four years for a first offence, life for a second.
 
WADA is set to introduce harsher penalties for first-time cheats effective January of 2015. In Canada, for example, an athlete caught using an illegal substance for the first time could receive a two-year ban. A second offence would result in a life-time suspension. Under WADA’s new rules, it’s four years for a first offence, life for a second.

Shouldn't be relevant in this situation.
 

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I assume there is something in the code about the club the players were at at the time of violation that protects our club given that we now have 2 players?

Why? The afl has adopted the wada code - which is about individuals and a bit about teams. It is silent about what happens if players move elsewhere.
 
Why? The afl has adopted the wada code - which is about individuals and a bit about teams. It is silent about what happens if players move elsewhere.

That is disturbing. So we are exposed to risk of club sanctions for having 2 players on our list that may have transgressed before coming to our club? Surely common sense would prevail.
 
That is disturbing. So we are exposed to risk of club sanctions for having 2 players on our list that may have transgressed before coming to our club? Surely common sense would prevail.

Yes its a risk. Common sense has nothing to do with it. if they have transgressed then they have to serve a penalty and its bad luck for us.
 
Yes its a risk. Common sense has nothing to do with it. if they have transgressed then they have to serve a penalty and its bad luck for us.

I think you have misunderstood me. The risk of penalties to players is obvious. My question is in relation to potential team penalties (ie. paraphrasing.... the code states that if two or more players from one team are found guilty then there shall be team sanctions also). Is the PAFC therefore exposed to club sanctions despite the fact that the players transgressed elsewhere?
 
I think you have misunderstood me. The risk of penalties to players is obvious. My question is in relation to potential team penalties (ie. paraphrasing.... the code states that if two or more players from one team are found guilty then there shall be team sanctions also). Is the PAFC therefore exposed to club sanctions despite the fact that the players transgressed elsewhere?

No its got nothing to do with Port transgressing.
 
Ok. Then given the code says the team "shall" be sanctioned, and in the case that Gus and Ryder are found guilty, what type of sanctions can the PAFC expect?

None. The penalties would be leveled against the club they left, not against Port Adelaide. You cant inherit club sanctions. Individual players - Ryder, Monfries - might cop it, but there'll be no other backlash to the club itself
 
Ok. Then given the code says the team "shall" be sanctioned, and in the case that Gus and Ryder are found guilty, what type of sanctions can the PAFC expect?

Nothing, nil, zero, zilch. The team that transgressed is Essendon. They are the ones who might get a further penalty. Port has to wear Ryder and Monfries getting a penalty and being banned for X months.

In your mind how do you reckon Port transgressed the AFL Anti Doping penalty??? If 2 blokes gave a positive sample on GF day sample then the team would lose the flag.
 
Killer Power isn't saying that he thinks Port transgressed, just asking the question on whether there is a flawed interpretation of the ruling that may impact on Port.

(obviously there isn't but that's what he was getting at)
 
Nothing, nil, zero, zilch. The team that transgressed is Essendon. They are the ones who might get a further penalty. Port has to wear Ryder and Monfries getting a penalty and being banned for X months.

In your mind how do you reckon Port transgressed the AFL Anti Doping penalty??? If 2 blokes gave a positive sample on GF day sample then the team would lose the flag.

Ha. I don't believe they have. I misunderstood and thought you were saying that the code doesn't discriminate as to where the transgressions occurred, only that two players in a team had been found guilty. Let's just delete these posts and pretend they never happened :drunk:
 

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