POLL: Are you disappointed that we haven't improved our list through trading?

[prodigy1311]

Who says Dangerfield won't re-sign in the middle of next year?
2014 looked like a good FA period when Gibbs & Boak were on the market, but their clubs locked them up mid-season.

It is too risky waiting around for the "perfect" FA period.

Exactly, every club will be looking to resign their stars well before next season end. Just like we have to with cotch, dusty & rance. Our only hope will be if a star nominates RFC as their preference which is very very unlikely. So saving for next year is the wrong approach. Yes, we didn't lose anythinig in the draft, but our priorty should be improving the list not leaving as it is..! There is still time to fill in gaps with players (DFA, rookie etc) that can fill a role, lets hope we are at least considering to explore those options.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Gold but dont forget gwilt!

lol - cant believe I forgot him

some of the reactions to these trades have been great.

bomber fans to gwilt - um..... okay.... welcome to the club I suppose

norf fans to cooney - phew!

 

[theflea]

Sadly it's not who we failed to trade in, it's who we never traded out or delisted. I just think we still have 6 to 7 players or more that I personally believe will never make it as good solid performers at AFL level. I know we moved on a fair number of players but not enough in my opinion. I don't wish get into an argument about individuals as I'd come across as too negative. RFC needs to be more aggressive turning over the list. Give more youth a chance. Stop clogging up our list with cast offs from other clubs. Rookie young players who have had little opportunity, not players in the twilight of their careers.
When targeting Free Agents, A graders only. With FA, you get what you pay for. Either stay away from FA or pay top Dollar. Come on tigers get more aggressive. Stop being mediocre in your attempts to improve the list. The club is mediocre at best in just about all aspects and we have stalled in the last 2 years with regard to recruiting.

Imo just on the getting rid of mediocre players, I think we know who we want to get upgrades on, and will do this via the draft, but will wait to exit those players until these kids actually are good enough( via their output) to boot them out. If we just kick them out now, it hurts the teams ability to win games.

 

[Jimmy6019]

you're right, we should have chased Waite, Higgins, and Cooney

Higgins would have been an upgrade on on Grigg and Conca to say the least. And I'm pretty sure Boyd wasn't on the table until Bulldogs forced that trade through. It's amazing what doors can open up if you are aggressive and actually shop around players worth something i.e not Arnott or Elton. No we will just draft our way to success with our brilliant drafting history behind us and wait three to four years until these kids come on and we are in decline.

* That's assuming we even draft kids of course. I'm guessing one kid at 12 and then 3 mature age C grade specials (which we will not have to overpay so everyone will be happy)!

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Higgins would have been an upgrade on on Grigg and Conca to say the least. And I'm pretty sure Boyd wasn't on the table until Bulldogs forced that trade through. It's amazing what doors can open up if you are aggressive and actually shop around players worth something i.e not Arnott or Elton. No we will just draft our way to success with our brilliant drafting history behind us and wait three to four years until these kids come on and we are in decline.

* That's assuming we even draft kids of course. I'm guessing one kid at 12 and then 3 mature age specials (which we will not have to overpay so everyone will be happy)!

Higgins has major issues getting on the park each week

Also it was Griff who opened the door for the Boyd trade, Higgins is off to slum it at Norf as a free agent

 

[Jimmy6019]

Higgins has major issues getting on the park each week

Also it was Griff who opened the door for the Boyd trade, Higgins is off to slum it at Norf as a free agent

Thanks for the response. That is the point I am getting at though and the frustration of Richmond's impotence of the last two years. I think we can all agree that our list will be peaking now and for maybe the next 2-3 years so we should be doing everything possible for a tilt at a Premiership. Not just make up the numbers, peak at 5th and then fade away for another rebuild. Look at our direct competition, Port Adelaide, North Melb, Collingwood, Geelong, Gold Coast, GWS etc all making aggressive moves on and off the field and taking risks for a Premiership. We are sitting idle, pinning our hopes on mediocre draft picks and thus going backwards at a fast rate. Higgins is no more injury prone than Conca and would be an upgrade of at least 10 players at Richmond, I mean we still have Newman in our best 22 FFS! We would be much closer to a Premiership if we had one or a few of Higgins, Chapman, Dal Santo, Tyson, Vince etc etc. Instead we chase one proven dud in two years... unforgivable! The Premiership dream is slipping away very quickly and most likely past us due to inactivity and ultra conservative moneyball fantasies both on an off the field. Makes you wonder what could have been with an experienced coach at the helm, an aggressive game style and an aggressive trading approach that was willing to actually pay a premium to attract elite talent and heaven forbid use the mythical 'war chest'. Something to ponder as the competition goes past us again in the next few years.

 

[living_in_syd]

Tbh I think they were so scared from Hampson they were overly super precautious this year.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Thanks for the response. That is the point I am getting at though and the frustration of Richmond's impotence of the last two years. I think we can all agree that our list will be peaking now and for maybe the next 2-3 years so we should be doing everything possible for a tilt at a Premiership. Not just make up the numbers, peak at 5th and then fade away for another rebuild. Look at our direct competition, Port Adelaide, North Melb, Collingwood, Geelong, Gold Coast, GWS etc all making aggressive moves on and off the field and taking risks for a Premiership. We are sitting idle, pinning our hopes on mediocre draft picks and thus going backwards at a fast rate. Higgins is no more injury prone than Conca and would be an upgrade of at least 10 players at Richmond, I mean we still have Newman in our best 22 FFS! We would be much closer to a Premiership if we had one or a few of Higgins, Chapman, Dal Santo, Tyson, Vince etc etc. Instead we chase one proven dud in two years... unforgivable! The Premiership dream is slipping away very quickly and most likely past us due to inactivity and ultra conservative moneyball fantasies both on an off the field. Makes you wonder what could have been with an experienced coach at the helm, an aggressive game style and an aggressive trading approach that was willing to actually pay a premium to attract elite talent and heaven forbid use the mythical 'war chest'. Something to ponder as the competition goes past us again in the next few years.

you mean the approach we took under Terry Wallace?

 

[GroggSquad]

you mean the approach we took under Terry Wallace?

The Terry Wallace era is irrelevant. We actually have stars to build a team around now.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

The Terry Wallace era is irrelevant. We actually have stars to build a team around now.

And how did we get those stars?

Not by hopping onto planes to London and failing in Hail Mary sign up attempts

We did what most fans asked us to do, retained our higher picks and started developing our own for the first time in a generation

 

[tiggywigs]

Trading is not the only one way to improve a list.
Drafting and development will almost certainly be more important in deciding whether the Tiges present list will form the backbone of a real tilt at the flag.
I'll back the recent record of the club in getting the fundamentals right.
This year Griffiths finally showed he can be a real weapon.
Next year it could someone like Tigga, Donuts or even the String Bean.

 

[GroggSquad]

And how did we get those stars?

Not by hopping onto planes to London and failing in Hail Mary sign up attempts

We did what most fans asked us to do, retained our higher picks and started developing our own for the first time in a generation

Great. Step 1 complete. Now its time to bring in some established talent to complement what we've developed. Sydney, Hawthorn & Geelong didn't win premierships relying purely on draft picks.

 

[Capitano_Cotch]

Great. Step 1 complete. Now its time to bring in some established talent to complement what we've developed. Sydney, Hawthorn & Geelong didn't win premierships relying purely on draft picks.

Hawthorn's 2008 premiership was won mainly on the back of their draftees, as opposed to their trades.
However, I agree with you for the most part.
I'm pretty sure we still have far less full time recruiters across the country than other 'power' clubs.
Collingwood, Essendon, Geelong, Sydney, Hawthorn and probably a few more have invested in full-time recruiters much more than we have.
This is why I believe that the term 'investing in the draft' is wrong.
Instead, it should be 'backing in our ability to develop talent', which has been okay lately, not fantastic though.
If we go backwards next season then expect this off-season by us to come under a lot of scrutiny.

 

[TigerImposter]

we have learnt from past mistakes, when evaluating where we are in real terms and where we want to be for an extended time and what formula needs to be followed. Only 2 teams had 0 on the trade tracker, us and Freo. Tipping Lyon is a smart cookie and didnt think it was worth wasting time with maybes, just like us

No we tried to do trades where Freo appeared not to
For us they fell on their arxe
One trade was over priced
The Essendon guy was chopping and changing
Finally the JT one he failed the test
We did try though

 

[TigerImposter]

This times 100! We have two picks inside the top 50 FFS! And a recruiting team that wasted a number 6 draft pick on a plodder to the bewilderment of everyone in the AFL. We had Heppell dished up to us on a platter and passed! And people think that we are somehow going to get ahead of the competition with pick 12 and 33 with the same drafting team and history we have! Absolutely kidding ourselves. If you're just relying on the draft in the AFL you are going backwards. Look at Port Adelaide, nailed it again and improved both on and off the field. You need to be bold, take risks and make things happen! And yes, you HAVE TO PAY OVERS to attract elite talent to the club. If you are paying market rate why the hell would anyone choose Richmond over the other 17 clubs in the competition? This obsession with not paying overs is a joke and it is why Richmond will never attract any A graders to the club. This is obviously a rant, but the points remain solid. This conservative, stability for the sake of stability approach will lead to nothing but mediocrity for this club and a wasted generation of talent. I'm sure there are plenty on this forum who will be happy to make a few ordinary finals appearances and fade away for another rebuild but the supporters deserve more!! Mark my words, when the Bulldogs, Carlton and Lions overtake us in the next 2-3 years and everyone is scratching their heads again, it will be the complete inaction and incompetence both on and off the field in 2013 and 2014 that will be the blame. But hey, at least we haven't paid overs for anyone both on and off the field, and don't worry, forget about the debacle of 3-11 last year, we have the coaching talent to get the best out of the list and take us to the next level. It's all about stability, faith and hope.

Not only is this post refreshing and positive it's the stark reality of where we could be in two years time
Jimmy6019 for someone who doesn't say much you at least deliver your message with precision and honesty

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Great. Step 1 complete. Now its time to bring in some established talent to complement what we've developed. Sydney, Hawthorn & Geelong didn't win premierships relying purely on draft picks.

no, but they had currency to trade with - we dont

for all the talk about what the Pies and Dogs did, they did it at the expense of Beams and Griff

You want your big trade? are you prepared to farewell Dusty or Lids to get it?

 

[TigerImposter]

The Terry Wallace era is irrelevant. We actually have stars to build a team around now.

And no debt , better facilities , support staff all over the place, sponsors . All we need now is this hope concept to come good bc that's what it appears the coach and admin are backing in

 

[turtle27]

This times 100! We have two picks inside the top 50 FFS! And a recruiting team that wasted a number 6 draft pick on a plodder to the bewilderment of everyone in the AFL. We had Heppell dished up to us on a platter and passed! And people think that we are somehow going to get ahead of the competition with pick 12 and 33 with the same drafting team and history we have! Absolutely kidding ourselves. If you're just relying on the draft in the AFL you are going backwards. Look at Port Adelaide, nailed it again and improved both on and off the field. You need to be bold, take risks and make things happen! And yes, you HAVE TO PAY OVERS to attract elite talent to the club. If you are paying market rate why the hell would anyone choose Richmond over the other 17 clubs in the competition? This obsession with not paying overs is a joke and it is why Richmond will never attract any A graders to the club. This is obviously a rant, but the points remain solid. This conservative, stability for the sake of stability approach will lead to nothing but mediocrity for this club and a wasted generation of talent. I'm sure there are plenty on this forum who will be happy to make a few ordinary finals appearances and fade away for another rebuild but the supporters deserve more!! Mark my words, when the Bulldogs, Carlton and Lions overtake us in the next 2-3 years and everyone is scratching their heads again, it will be the complete inaction and incompetence both on and off the field in 2013 and 2014 that will be the blame. But hey, at least we haven't paid overs for anyone both on and off the field, and don't worry, forget about the debacle of 3-11 last year, we have the coaching talent to get the best out of the list and take us to the next level. It's all about stability, faith and hope.

Most of your post is hypothetical opinion, but, who should we have traded out and who should we have got? I'll put a couple up for you and see what you think. 12 and Vlaustin for Sheil? Or, Ellis and Vlaustin for 2 and 3? Would you do that? Is that bold and risky enough for you?

 

[Capitano_Cotch]

Most of your post is hypothetical opinion, but, who should we have traded out and who should we have got? I'll put a couple up for you and see what you think. 12 and Vlaustin for Sheil? Or, Ellis and Vlaustin for 2 and 3? Would you do that? Is that bold and risky enough for you?

I don't think anyone would have expected us to trade those young players, that's just silly.
But how about Vickery?
We could have combined him and our first pick and we would have probably got a genuine gun.
Geelong picked up Rhys Stanley and gave up pick 21.
PICK 21!
I really do not rate Vickery but surely he is better than Stanley.

 

[TigerImposter]

Hawthorn's 2008 premiership was won mainly on the back of their draftees, as opposed to their trades.
However, I agree with you for the most part.
I'm pretty sure we still have far less full time recruiters across the country than other 'power' clubs.
Collingwood, Essendon, Geelong, Sydney, Hawthorn and probably a few more have invested in full-time recruiters much more than we have.
This is why I believe that the term 'investing in the draft' is wrong.
Instead, it should be 'backing in our ability to develop talent', which has been okay lately, not fantastic though.
If we go backwards next season then expect this off-season by us to come under a lot of scrutiny.

I agree with this , Stew Dew maybe a little upset
The hawks 13-14 and swans 12 were riddled with trades
They've worked it out target big bodied players with skill and it gets you there faster
The Hawks big bodies totally dismantled Sydney
If we expect all of our kids to simultaneously develop and peak we will never get to the summit. Class needs to be injected at some stage
I always wanted to wait next year and when I heard names like JT Levi And Winderlich I was relieved
Next year there will be no more excuses as we will be primed to go , but
We need to sign up our guns and then convince other guns to come

 

[Capitano_Cotch]

I agree with this , Stew Dew maybe a little upset
The hawks 13-14 and swans 12 were riddled with trades
They've worked it out target big bodied players with skill and it gets you there faster
The Hawks big bodies totally dismantled Sydney
If we expect all of our kids to simultaneously develop and peak we will never get to the summit. Class needs to be injected at some stage
I always wanted to wait next year and when I heard names like JT Levi And Winderlich I was relieved
Next year there will be no more excuses as we will be primed to go , but
We need to sign up our guns and then convince other guns to come

Yeah.
Whilst its disappointing that we haven't improved our list, next years talent is lots better.
If we don't do anything in next years trade/FA period then you can say goodbye to Hartley.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

And no debt , better facilities , support staff all over the place, sponsors . All we need now is this hope concept to come good bc that's what it appears the coach and admin are backing in

one promising sign is we haven't had the immediate rebound implosion the Dees have suffered.

You can argue they were better off than us post debt demo off field, and after the tank-a-thon their kids were better than ours on paper. They paid the price however for some pretty poor decisions.

They cut back way too hard too quickly on experience at the club, they failed to provide any decent improvement of footy dept resourcing, they built a culture based upon deliberately throwing games, and now its bit them on the arse. We seem to have deliberately taken a more cautious and hopefully sustainable path, and while it didnt show the immediate promise of the Dees, its showing to be more likely to sustain.

I would note however that the Kangas went the other end of the scale at the same time, not really getting the off field sorted out completely, but re-building investment in the footy dept ASAP. FWIW I think that would have crashed by now if not for the Tassie deal, and I think that deal is a poisoned chalice long term (for a team trying to avoid AFL dependence and forced relocation). I have to admit I'm still surprised by the additions of Higgins and Waite (and the chasing of Cooney). They only need a few more pieces to be a very good consistent side, but these decisions reek of the kind of thinking we had after the Frawley finals series. Time will tell though

 

[TigerImposter]

one promising sign is we haven't had the immediate rebound implosion the Dees have suffered.

You can argue they were better off than us post debt demo off field, and after the tank-a-thon their kids were better than ours on paper. They paid the price however for some pretty poor decisions.

They cut back way too hard too quickly on experience at the club, they failed to provide any decent improvement of footy dept resourcing, they built a culture based upon deliberately throwing games, and now its bit them on the arse. We seem to have deliberately taken a more cautious and hopefully sustainable path, and while it didnt show the immediate promise of the Dees, its showing to be more likely to sustain.

I would note however that the Kangas went the other end of the scale at the same time, not really getting the off field sorted out completely, but re-building investment in the footy dept ASAP. FWIW I think that would have crashed by now if not for the Tassie deal, and I think that deal is a poisoned chalice long term (for a team trying to avoid AFL dependence and forced relocation). I have to admit I'm still surprised by the additions of Higgins and Waite (and the chasing of Cooney). They only need a few more pieces to be a very good consistent side, but these decisions reek of the kind of thinking we had after the Frawley finals series. Time will tell though

Nort are delusional and as you say they could be heading to a Frawley year after we made finals then topped up with rubble for picks and then totally collapsed. I must admit Waite and Higgins are better than what Frawley got, but their window is still only slightly ajar and short term with their list
People are arguing that they were bold but I think they're desperate. The Scotts and DH are the thre coaches under the pump next year as time waits for no one
Nort and Geelong traded we tried and we are now backing our kids to come improve. Seeing Reece and his positive attitude I think the club is getting everyone up and running early
I can assure you we won't be 3-10 next year whether we make the finals will depend on the rise of our second tiered players with youth and also on how much the teams below us improve

 

[GroggSquad]

This times 100! We have two picks inside the top 50 FFS! And a recruiting team that wasted a number 6 draft pick on a plodder to the bewilderment of everyone in the AFL. We had Heppell dished up to us on a platter and passed! And people think that we are somehow going to get ahead of the competition with pick 12 and 33 with the same drafting team and history we have! Absolutely kidding ourselves. If you're just relying on the draft in the AFL you are going backwards. Look at Port Adelaide, nailed it again and improved both on and off the field. You need to be bold, take risks and make things happen! And yes, you HAVE TO PAY OVERS to attract elite talent to the club. If you are paying market rate why the hell would anyone choose Richmond over the other 17 clubs in the competition? This obsession with not paying overs is a joke and it is why Richmond will never attract any A graders to the club. This is obviously a rant, but the points remain solid. This conservative, stability for the sake of stability approach will lead to nothing but mediocrity for this club and a wasted generation of talent. I'm sure there are plenty on this forum who will be happy to make a few ordinary finals appearances and fade away for another rebuild but the supporters deserve more!! Mark my words, when the Bulldogs, Carlton and Lions overtake us in the next 2-3 years and everyone is scratching their heads again, it will be the complete inaction and incompetence both on and off the field in 2013 and 2014 that will be the blame. But hey, at least we haven't paid overs for anyone both on and off the field, and don't worry, forget about the debacle of 3-11 last year, we have the coaching talent to get the best out of the list and take us to the next level. It's all about stability, faith and hope.

Great post, sums up my thoughts exactly.

 

[Tomnat Tigers]

Great. Step 1 complete. Now its time to bring in some established talent to complement what we've developed. Sydney, Hawthorn & Geelong didn't win premierships relying purely on draft picks.

No but they built their core with draft picks and once they had developed they added pieces of puzzle as they saw fit. Which if you look at when they rebuilt and when they won their premierships it was 6+ years later and we are only now just getting to a similar stage. For us to be able to start adding pieces of the puzzle we need to know who the contenders are and who the pretenders are. Therefore it is very important that the likes of Vickery, Astbury, Conca and Griffiths cement not only themselves in our best 22 but top 10 players at the club so that they're added to the core with Cotchin, Martin ect. That way we can focus on only improving the area's that need strengthening rather than picking the best available talent, like Hawthorn did when they recruited Gibson to help Croad and then Lake to help Gibson once Croad had retired.