Stuff you've always wondered

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Keyser Soze said:
During high school in the eighties we did work in English or history or both on the reasons behind the diminishing importance of Anzac day and the quite large amount of negativity/hostility towards it by some. A lot of it was due to the fallout from the Vietnam war and fears at the time of a nuclear war meaning the anti war movement was strong

This attitude shifted and Anzac regained its position as a day of genuine reflection but as you say it's now morphed into something else that approaches an ugly time of celebration - I often used to think I'd like to attend a dawn service at Gallipoli thinking it would be quite special but now that seems closer to a rock concert than a solemn remembrance
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Yep it's definitely gone that way.

They need to put a limit on the number of visitors for a start. You can't move.
 
Keyser Soze said:
During high school in the eighties we did work in English or history or both on the reasons behind the diminishing importance of Anzac day and the quite large amount of negativity/hostility towards it by some. A lot of it was due to the fallout from the Vietnam war and fears at the time of a nuclear war meaning the anti war movement was strong

This attitude shifted and Anzac regained its position as a day of genuine reflection but as you say it's now morphed into something else that approaches an ugly time of celebration - I often used to think I'd like to attend a dawn service at Gallipoli thinking it would be quite special but now that seems closer to a rock concert than a solemn remembrance
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It's morphed from a commemoration to a celebration.
 
Bunk Moreland said:
Yep it's definitely gone that way.

They need to put a limit on the number of visitors for a start. You can't move.
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I went to the Dawn Service at Gallipoli about 15 years ago and even then it was crazy with the amount of people there. I was with a tour group and we had to get there at about 2am just to get a spot for the service and it was freezing. I can only imagine it's got worse since then.
 

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I was at the dawn service in Gallipoli last year. It was actually quite moving and tasteful and reflecting the real Anzac spirit - apart from the 5 minutes when it was violated by the Minister of Veterans Affairs.

No music apart from live performances by Australia and New Zealand indigenous groups. No alcohol. Documentaries shown about what happened in WWI. Basically no glorification of war.
 
There is a limit for this years service which I would expect will now be the case going forward.

The differences in culture to 100 years ago were immense. Most news was through the newspaper, and then you would wonder how many would have read it on a daily basis. Peer, family, institutions (Govt/Police/Militaray) and church networks had more influence than we take credit for and the respect for these would have had a major influence on teenagers decisions to sign up. Choosing to disrespect authority in those days was treated in the manner fit for the times and going against the will of others would have been a difficult choice to make.

The other aspect is that many Australians at that era were maybe first or second generation English/UK and the ties to the mother land and the loyalty to the Empire would have held sway in many of the conversations around those who were joining up. The social ostracising of those not to join, especially as the casualties rose during 1916-1917 would have left many feeling that there would not have been many other options than being labelled a coward and given the 'white feather' at the door of their house, to their parents or themselves personally.
 
Here's my old rant in SRP about my experience in Gallipoli in 2014:

I made the trip to Gallipoli this year for the dawn service. Very moving and sombre stuff that made me (and everyone else there) realise the utter inhumanity of war. A waste of thousands of lives, but throughout the service there was a common theme that these men should not be forgotten and that war is such an evil thing.

And then the Minister for Veterans Affairs came to the dais and spoke of the soldiers sacrificing for our freedoms and other jingoistic rubbish that gets bandied around by the politicians. Complete bullshit. All it took was a cursory look at the thousands of headstones scattered across the peninsula to realise that these young men weren't thinking of the freedoms we enjoy when they died a lonely death in between the enemy trenches. The Turks weren't going to invade Australia and tap our phones. The Germans weren't going to send in terrorists to blow things up. They were all just fighting because they were told to (and in the Turks' case, defending their homeland from foreign invaders) and it reflected how incredibly pointless it was.

The inscriptions on the Australian headstones all spoke of a son being terribly missed by his mother, a mate that died protecting his friend, and the hope that God would make things comforting for them in the afterlife. No such mention of dying for freedom or sacrificing for liberty. They were just scared, yet immensely brave boys that died way before their time and never got the chance to live the full life we all deserve. I highly doubt that those who perished, or even those who survived the campaign, thought that it was to preserve our way of life.

F*** the politicians and f*** the politicisation of the commemorations of WWI. Maybe these 100th anniversary commemorations can remind us of the inhumanity and pointlessness of war and make Australians less inclined to resort to violence. If so, that's well worth it. But if I hear the Minister of Veterans Affairs mention that those brave young men 'sacrificed for our freedoms' one more time I will personally walk to Canberra and bludgeon him to death with a rusty helmet.

/rant
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I detest the politicisation and glorification of what happened in 1915.
 
Gasometer said:
There is a limit for this years service which I would expect will now be the case going forward.

The differences in culture to 100 years ago were immense. Most news was through the newspaper, and then you would wonder how many would have read it on a daily basis. Peer, family, institutions (Govt/Police/Militaray) and church networks had more influence than we take credit for and the respect for these would have had a major influence on teenagers decisions to sign up. Choosing to disrespect authority in those days was treated in the manner fit for the times and going against the will of others would have been a difficult choice to make.

The other aspect is that many Australians at that era were maybe first or second generation English/UK and the ties to the mother land and the loyalty to the Empire would have held sway in many of the conversations around those who were joining up. The social ostracising of those not to join, especially as the casualties rose during 1916-1917 would have left many feeling that there would not have been many other options than being labelled a coward and given the 'white feather' at the door of their house, to their parents or themselves personally.
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You are spot on there, Gasometer . What we read, hear, and have seen re that era , it was exactly that . I have personally heard a story of someone getting a white feather , and they were exempted from joining up because of their important job at home
 
Forward Press said:
I was at the dawn service in Gallipoli last year. It was actually quite moving and tasteful and reflecting the real Anzac spirit - apart from the 5 minutes when it was violated by the Minister of Veterans Affairs.

No music apart from live performances by Australia and New Zealand indigenous groups. No alcohol. Documentaries shown about what happened in WWI. Basically no glorification of war.
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The service I went to was quite well done too and everyone in the crowd was quiet and respectful while it was conducted. We had John Howard and the NZ PM Helen Clarke making speeches there as it was the millenium service, Helen Clarke spoke about how the Gallipoli campaign bonded the nations of Australia and New Zealand but John Howard just talked about Australia without mentioning anything about New Zealand which didn't go down too well with the Kiwis in our tour group. You'd think with it being the ANZAC service that Howard could have at least acknowledged New Zealand's involvement.
 
In the end our biggest ever challenge as a nation was in 1942 when we were looking down the barrel of a possible invasion and the Mother Nation on her back heels...if you can ever get the chance to see 'The Last Bastion', or read anything on PM John Curtin or the Kokoda Track you will do yourself a favour.

And by means does that diminish any losses in any other war.
 
CatMarie said:
You are spot on there, Gasometer . What we read, hear, and have seen re that era , it was exactly that . I have personally heard a story of someone getting a white feather , and they were exempted from joining up because of their important job at home
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Small country towns were notorious in both wars for such behaviour...
 
Freofalcon said:
When my wife and I go out, why does she make me evaluate the merits, by countless costume changes, of her entire wardrobe for over an hour, only to decide to wear the very first outfit she tried on ?
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Just be grateful and glad that she still takes a lot of pride and effort into looking good for you :p
 

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dales.girl38 said:
Just be grateful and glad that she still takes a lot of pride and effort into looking good for you :p
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I do, don't worry about that.

It's just the first dress looked just as good as the thirty first one.
 
Freofalcon said:
It's just the first dress looked just as good as the thirty first one.
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Have you tried to explain it to her in those words?

That might solve the issue.
 
Tigerland55 said:
Have you tried to explain it to her in those words?

That might solve the issue.
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Probably more effective to just pretend to be super enthusiastic about one, so that it removes her doubt. If you're 'it's fine', 'just pick one' etc. it does nothing to help her decide.
 
dales.girl38 said:
Probably more effective to just pretend to be super enthusiastic about one, so that it removes her doubt. If you're 'it's fine', 'just pick one' etc. it does nothing to help her decide.
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That's what I do for the first one she comes out in. It doesn't work. I think it comes across as " please wear that one. PLEASE !!!!!!!!!! "
 
Bunk Moreland said:
During one of these games I actually told a girlfriend that I didn't like one of the dresses (it looked good). Just to see what would happen.

She wore that one anyway. Didn't take any notice.
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you sound like the sort of guy who would anwser yes to the question "Do I look fat in this dress" just to be a pain in the arse :D
 
Forward Press said:
I was at the dawn service in Gallipoli last year. It was actually quite moving and tasteful and reflecting the real Anzac spirit - apart from the 5 minutes when it was violated by the Minister of Veterans Affairs.

No music apart from live performances by Australia and New Zealand indigenous groups. No alcohol. Documentaries shown about what happened in WWI. Basically no glorification of war.
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I think OTT commemoration is glorification in and of itself. A lot of the ANZAC stuff goes on and on about fighting ANZAC spirit, and even though it doesn't explicitly glorify war it lionises the soldiers - which is basically the same thing.

When I look at footage of the dawn service at Gallipolli and see half the crowd decked out in green and gold (or carrying flags) like they're at a footy game, I find it pretty distasteful.

The ANZAC story is the closest thing Australia has to a state religion.
 
Caesar said:
I think OTT commemoration is glorification in and of itself. A lot of the ANZAC stuff goes on and on about fighting ANZAC spirit, and even though it doesn't explicitly glorify war it lionises the soldiers - which is basically the same thing.

When I look at footage of the dawn service at Gallipolli and see half the crowd decked out in green and gold (or carrying flags) like they're at a footy game, I find it pretty distasteful.

The ANZAC story is the closest thing Australia has to a state religion.
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I sort of see where you're coming from but I don't agree that 'lionising' the soldiers happens. A lot of the Anzac commemorations on April 25 are focused around how ordinary these soldiers were and the conditions they had to face. Barely any mention of 'freedom' or 'for King and country' or any of those jingoistic nationalistic buzzwords.

I wasn't one of those in green and gold and I agree that it is going down the road to becoming like a footy game. They are there, though, and they made the conscious decision to spend money and travel halfway around the world to see what it's all about. I like to think that the dawn service and war graves and educational stuff helps them become better citizens.
 
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