List Mgmt. Trade & Free Agency talk Pt 8

[tigerfan1961]

Because he'll just be a list clogger IMO. Just good enough to get games ahead of a youngster but not good enough to help us rebound up the ladder.

The way Crows are going they'll be desperate to add some more talent next year. They need some grunt and leadership. We could snag a 2nd round pick if he left. Everyone's a winner.

So a player you call a list clogger, average and only just good enough to get a game in our midfield in your opinion will get us a second round pick from Adelaide? I don’t think so, he’s better than what you give him credit for. No star for sure though

 

[tiger_tough]

So a player you call a list clogger, average and only just good enough to get a game in our midfield in your opinion will get us a second round pick from Adelaide? I don’t think so, he’s better than what you give him credit for. No star for sure though

Like I've said a few times matt flynn got GWS a 2nd round pick for a 3 year deal last year, and he'd played a total of 33 games. So yeah I'd expect Graham to get one too.

It's not a knock on Graham. He probably would be best 22 for us next year but we'd benefit more pumping games into a kid and getting an extra pick. Plus he explored his options last time, why wouldn't he this time?

 

[tora tora tora]

Reckon they’ll pick him as there’s no one else and he’s a mature body. Hopefully at least brings the ball to ground which was Jack’s mantra 2017 to feed the three amigos. Goals a bonus

In fairness Balta hasn't been much better as a kpf.

 

[Profop]

Such a stupid comparison. Boomer, Nicky Dal, Petrie and Firrito all wanted to play on. Boomer was still one of their best players. If Dusty ever wants one more year and he’s in our best dozen and we tell him to get f***ed then it’s a fair comparison.

Here’s another reason it’s a stupid comparison. Here is how many players the Kangas brought in year by year from their first ‘cull’:

2016: 10
2017: 9
2018: 13
2019: 6
2020: 13
2021: 9
2022: 11
2023: 10

Richmond:

2016: 7
2017: 7
2018: 9
2019: 5
2020: 5
2021: 7
2022: 9
2023: 6

It would hardly be anything dramatic to ‘cull’ 8-9 players end of 2024 given where our development is at. I’m not saying do it 8-years in a row like the Kangas … just end of 2024. And I’m not saying bring in 11-13 new players either … just 9-10.

Kangas have remained crap for a long long time due to drafting errors (Thomas, Phillips), trading or list mgt failures (Jed Anderson, Farren Ray, Ahern, Marlet Williams, Aaron Hall, Pittard, Polec, Tyson, Campbell, Bonar, Coleman Jones, Greenwood etc..) coaching, development (JHF) and just basically being a really poorly run club at every level.

So why would the idea of encouraging Grimes, Prestia, Pickett and Macca into retirement, maybe trying to trade Graham and Broad, and moving on a few players proven not up to the level despite numerous chances … depending on 2024 form 3-4 of (Hugo, MRJ, Mansell, Colina, Cumberland… why would that be anything but a positive future move in a year we have a really strong draft hand?

That is not a cull. That’s intelligent list transition, leaving us with still a heap of very very experienced and mature bodied players:

Vlastuin
Martin
Ross
Baker
TT
Short
Rioli
Lynch
Balta
Hopper
Naismith
Nank
Bolton
Graham (if no trade)
Broad (if no trade)
Miller

Carlton’s oldest player is Nic Newman at 31y 2m. They’ve got 2 x 30yo+ players

Freo have 4 x players 30+, with Walters and Taberner likely retirements end of year.

After Goldstein Essendon’s oldest player is Heppell who is 31y 10m. Just 3 players 30yo+

We currently have 7 players 30+. Will be 10
by August.

With my changes, if Broad stays we will still have 6 x 30yo players in 2025.

And people are worried it’s a ‘mature aged’ cull
that will spiral us the way of the Kangas? Just not close to reality.

Even with our bevy of kids on the weekend, we were still older than Sydney by 7-months average with our average age 25y 8m…. Here are the teams younger than us on the weekend:

Sydney was 25y 1m
Hawks 24y 8m
Freo 25y 5m
Adel 25y 6m
Eagles 25y 0m
Saints 25y 1m
North 24y 0m

If we hang onto all of our senior bodies we will be one on the oldest teams every weekend again in 2025. At what point do we entrust the younger players to play the wings? To play Grahams role? To take a back pocket over Grimes and Broad?

This isn’t about ‘playing the kids’ … our list isn’t even close to a young list and won’t be in 2025 even with the changes I’m suggesting.


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In 2020 the Kangaroos delisted the following:

Jamie Macmillan, Majak Daw, Jasper Pittard, Ben Jacobs, Paul Ahern, Mason Wood, Sam Durdin, Marley Williams, Joel Crocker, Lachie Hosie and Tom Murphy

And traded Ben Brown

Ever since then they’ve been complete hot garbage

No doubt there’ll be a few changes at the end of the year but when you’re reading stuff like trade Vlaustin and Bolton there has to be a voice of reason

McIntosh’s numbers are down and therefore you’d think it should be easy for a player like Banks to take his spot. Forcing a young player to perform in order to get AFL games can only hold him in good stead

If we get to the end of the year and offer McIntosh a one year deal with the understanding he’s up against it to keep his spot I see more value in that for the team then a fifth round draft pick

 

[tora tora tora]

Such a stupid comparison. Boomer, Nicky Dal, Petrie and Firrito all wanted to play on. Boomer was still one of their best players. If Dusty ever wants one more year and he’s in our best dozen and we tell him to get f***ed then it’s a fair comparison.

Here’s another reason it’s a stupid comparison. Here is how many players the Kangas brought in year by year from their first ‘cull’:

2016: 10
2017: 9
2018: 13
2019: 6
2020: 13
2021: 9
2022: 11
2023: 10

Richmond:

2016: 7
2017: 7
2018: 9
2019: 5
2020: 5
2021: 7
2022: 9
2023: 6

It would hardly be anything dramatic to ‘cull’ 8-9 players end of 2024 given where our development is at. I’m not saying do it 8-years in a row like the Kangas … just end of 2024. And I’m not saying bring in 11-13 new players either … just 9-10.

Kangas have remained crap for a long long time due to drafting errors (Thomas, Phillips), trading or list mgt failures (Jed Anderson, Farren Ray, Ahern, Marlet Williams, Aaron Hall, Pittard, Polec, Tyson, Campbell, Bonar, Coleman Jones, Greenwood etc..) coaching, development (JHF) and just basically being a really poorly run club at every level.

So why would the idea of encouraging Grimes, Prestia, Pickett and Macca into retirement, maybe trying to trade Graham and Broad, and moving on a few players proven not up to the level despite numerous chances … depending on 2024 form 3-4 of (Hugo, MRJ, Mansell, Colina, Cumberland… why would that be anything but a positive future move in a year we have a really strong draft hand?

That is not a cull. That’s intelligent list transition, leaving us with still a heap of very very experienced and mature bodied players:

Vlastuin
Martin
Ross
Baker
TT
Short
Rioli
Lynch
Balta
Hopper
Naismith
Nank
Bolton
Graham (if no trade)
Broad (if no trade)
Miller

Carlton’s oldest player is Nic Newman at 31y 2m. They’ve got 2 x 30yo+ players

Freo have 4 x players 30+, with Walters and Taberner likely retirements end of year.

After Goldstein Essendon’s oldest player is Heppell who is 31y 10m. Just 3 players 30yo+

We currently have 7 players 30+. Will be 10
by August.

With my changes, if Broad stays we will still have 6 x 30yo players in 2025.

And people are worried it’s a ‘mature aged’ cull
that will spiral us the way of the Kangas? Just not close to reality.

Even with our bevy of kids on the weekend, we were still older than Sydney by 7-months average with our average age 25y 8m…. Here are the teams younger than us on the weekend:

Sydney was 25y 1m
Hawks 24y 8m
Freo 25y 5m
Adel 25y 6m
Eagles 25y 0m
Saints 25y 1m
North 24y 0m

If we hang onto all of our senior bodies we will be one on the oldest teams every weekend again in 2025. At what point do we entrust the younger players to play the wings? To play Grahams role? To take a back pocket over Grimes and Broad?

This isn’t about ‘playing the kids’ … our list isn’t even close to a young list and won’t be in 2025 even with the changes I’m suggesting.


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Yze steps in and has, sadly our first 22 from the flag era his first 22.

Straight out retirements are tricky. Grimes and Prestia first in line you'd think but When Prestia returns he'll be selected, if he remains injury free he'll keep getting selected. Not sure who has the say on retirements. Toce?



Kmac and Pickett first picked, never injured, another year. Kmac I've never rated but never dropped...Pickett jail is the only way he leaves

Trading seems the preferred way to move players. Or delisting fringe players.

Winning with a half a dozen fringe players was encouraging. I get the feeling Graham and Grimes straight back in.

Not a north style cull I don't think.

I also have zero confidence at Richmond nailing a draft.

 

[Daka]

Will Philips is a player we should be looking at very young still & could make it still he is behind quality young midfielders at North.
Would not cost a lot worth a look or not?

 

[Noidnadroj]

Yze steps in and has, basically our first 22 from the flag era his first 22.

Straight out retirements are tricky. Grimes and Prestia first in line you'd think but When Prestia returns he'll be selected, if he remains injury free he'll keep getting selected. Not sure who has the say on retirements. Toce?



Kmac and Pickett first picked, never injured, another year.

Trading seems the preferred way to move players. Or delisting fringe players.

Winning with a half a dozen fringe players was encouraging. I get the feeling Graham and Grimes straight back in.

Not a north style cull I don't think.

I love Prestia. But he just can’t get on the park regularly enough. And when he does he is well past his best. If he remains in 2025 he’s not playing for less than $500k. And if he’s fit he’s not playing VFL. So what then? Sonsie plays VFL? McAuliffe? Dow?

And we may see a great example this week. If Grimes comes straight back in T Brown might go out. I hate that. I love Grimes, but i just think we need to keep pumping senior games into the 3-4th year players who are providing similar value to a ‘fading’ Grimes.

I’m not saying ‘play the kids’ and I’m not saying cull/trade any high quality players. But we just
need a plan so that from mid-2024 onwards the following players are in the senior team every single week:

Dow
Ross
T Brown
Tresize
Clarke
Campbell
Miller
Young
MRJ
Mansell
Banks

Then select the senior players like Macca, Pickett, Graham, Prestia, Broad, Grimes around that, not the other way around.


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[Muddiemoose]

Our first pick which looks like top 5 at this stage will be a midfielder type as that’s the way the draft is. So we will need to trade up in the draft for a Key Forward. Probably another top 10-15 pick. Which can be done with our hoarding of draft selections.

As for targetting JUH, that’s an easy decision. He’s a number one draft pick and will be one of the better key forwards in the league. Non brainer.

100% re the targeting of JUH I saw someone mention it as defeatist policy before when I see it just as we badly need a key forward now and the best key forward in the comp for the next 10 years was also on the market
Would of been stupidly if we didn’t make a legitimate play for him even with the extra cost re draft picks

Getting JUH would of eliminated the risk of the player we drafted not working out plus the 2 - 3 years it takes for a young key forward to really starting to play consistently

Alas it’s non factor now and happy to hit the draft but out of the potential options going for JUH made sense on multiple levels

As for the draft I’m not even sure if we need a highly rated mid, I would actually prefer we go for the best medium defender but proper defender not just a flanker type
Think that’s the biggest hole in our list apart from key position especially with Grimes and Broad towards the end of their careers

 

[captain cotch 9]

100% re the targeting of JUH I saw someone mention it as defeatist policy before when I see it just as we badly need a key forward now and the best key forward in the comp for the next 10 years was also on the market
Would of been stupidly if we didn’t make a legitimate play for him even with the extra cost re draft picks

Getting JUH would of eliminated the risk of the player we drafted not working out plus the 2 - 3 years it takes for a young key forward to really starting to play consistently

Alas it’s non factor now and happy to hit the draft but out of the potential options going for JUH made sense on multiple levels

As for the draft I’m not even sure if we need a highly rated mid, I would actually prefer we go for the best medium defender but proper defender not just a flanker type
Think that’s the biggest hole in our list apart from key position especially with Grimes and Broad towards the end of their careers

Id say Brown and Tresise are medium defenders

 

[Muddiemoose]

Id say Brown and Tresise are medium defenders

Brown more of an interceptor and distributor that Will probably end up playing as a spare like Vlossy

Tres looks promising but skill wise a big gap between him and what could be found at the pointy end of the draft and think we still need more class in our backline

 

[tora tora tora]

I love Prestia. But he just can’t get on the park regularly enough. And when he does he is well past his best. If he remains in 2025 he’s not playing for less than $500k. And if he’s fit he’s not playing VFL. So what then? Sonsie plays VFL? McAuliffe? Dow?

And we may see a great example this week. If Grimes comes straight back in T Brown might go out. I hate that. I love Grimes, but i just think we need to keep pumping senior games into the 3-4th year players who are providing similar value to a ‘fading’ Grimes.

I’m not saying ‘play the kids’ and I’m not saying cull/trade any high quality players. But we just
need a plan so that from mid-2024 onwards the following players are in the senior team every single week:

Dow
Ross
T Brown
Tresize
Clarke
Campbell
Miller
Young
MRJ
Mansell
Banks

Then select the senior players like Macca, Pickett, Graham, Prestia, Broad, Grimes around that, not the other way around.


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Sadly Prestia has been past his best cos we brought in TT & JH. Prestia moved Hfwd in 23. I hope like hell he calls it a day but the club like keeping the old flag winners on the list.

Which would be fine if they played them in the VFL but RFC never do. Melbourne do, to good effect.

I would've been playing kids ahead of the role players 2 years ago too . But, Yze has not been. I could not believe his starting 22 in 2024.

Thank goodness for injury opportunity. Sadly, Prestia & Grimes need to get Meehaned to call it a day.

Yze will have Grimes for Brown & JGTI for Sonsie probably. Campbell seems a lock & MRJ & Mansell are faves.

 

[Daka]

I don't think he'd leave the Bombers but what are people's thoughts on Andrew McGrath

1

Andrew Mcgrath

Age

25

Ht

180cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

22.7

5star

K

11.6

4star

HB

11.1

5star

M

1.6

2star

T

6.4

5star

MG

252.9

4star

D

22.7

5star

K

11.6

4star

HB

11.1

5star

M

1.6

2star

T

6.4

5star

MG

252.9

4star

D

22.0

5star

K

11.0

4star

HB

11.0

5star

M

1.2

2star

T

6.4

5star

MG

219.0

4star

? we have showed interest before probably in career best form at the moment.
He is a free agent so he would cost nothing other than salary 600K? get Prestia off the books he is clearly cooked & it's a win.
I'm probably not his biggest fan but at the same time would like us to put pressure on clubs. up his $$ so the bombers overpay.

 

[Bojangles17]

Why does Graham need to go?

So we can’t select him

 

[Drunken Wookie]

I don't think he'd leave the Bombers but what are people's thoughts on Andrew McGrath? we have showed interest before probably in career best form at the moment.
He is a free agent so he would cost nothing other than salary 600K? get Prestia off the books he is clearly cooked & it's a win.
I'm probably not his biggest fan but at the same time would like us to put pressure on clubs. up his $$ so the bombers overpay.

He's a solid player for the right price I'd take him but you just know he's gonna command a price in line with where he was drafted not his actual worth. Certainly wouldn't be throwing more than 700k at him.

 

[JR82]

Who can play on the wing?

Sonsie. Short. D Rioli. Clarke. Ross. Graham. Ralphsmith. Baker. Campbell.

I’ve said I can tolerate playing one each week, but not both. (I’d rather both out but I’ll admit Pickett played well against Sydney.. I’d still rather he was out)

In 4 games this year Macca has zero goals, zero goal assists, 9 x SI’s and has career low numbers for tackles, groundball gets, intercept possessions, metres gained and anything else you care to analyse. He almost leads the league in both turnovers and clangers per disposal. He should be playing career best footy at his age and experience.

We are not at a stage of team development where we will benefit from Macca providing defensive running up and down the wing doing sweet FA every week. He was terrific in our strong era but he has gone backwards badly and it’s time to have him as VFL back-up.


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U seriously need to watch him at the ground for 5-10mins exclusively. what he does off the ball is why McIntosh plays each week. U named Hugo as someone that can take over? Not not doing too much at VFL level let alone be ready to take over a snr spot, he's playing HB in the VFL FWIW. With the others u name, there's a lot of robbing Peter to pay Paul there, Ross is the only that has played wing & he's playing inside mid atm.

 

[Muddiemoose]

I don't think he'd leave the Bombers but what are people's thoughts on Andrew McGrath? we have showed interest before probably in career best form at the moment.
He is a free agent so he would cost nothing other than salary 600K? get Prestia off the books he is clearly cooked & it's a win.
I'm probably not his biggest fan but at the same time would like us to put pressure on clubs. up his $$ so the bombers overpay.

Problem is that he his essentially a Vlastuin clone with the way he plays and we don’t really need another player of that type atm

Great player but just not quite what we need list wise and price wise

 

[JR82]

Such a stupid comparison. Boomer, Nicky Dal, Petrie and Firrito all wanted to play on. Boomer was still one of their best players. If Dusty ever wants one more year and he’s in our best dozen and we tell him to get f***ed then it’s a fair comparison.

Here’s another reason it’s a stupid comparison. Here is how many players the Kangas brought in year by year from their first ‘cull’:

2016: 10
2017: 9
2018: 13
2019: 6
2020: 13
2021: 9
2022: 11
2023: 10

Richmond:

2016: 7
2017: 7
2018: 9
2019: 5
2020: 5
2021: 7
2022: 9
2023: 6

It would hardly be anything dramatic to ‘cull’ 8-9 players end of 2024 given where our development is at. I’m not saying do it 8-years in a row like the Kangas … just end of 2024. And I’m not saying bring in 11-13 new players either … just 9-10.

Kangas have remained crap for a long long time due to drafting errors (Thomas, Phillips), trading or list mgt failures (Jed Anderson, Farren Ray, Ahern, Marlet Williams, Aaron Hall, Pittard, Polec, Tyson, Campbell, Bonar, Coleman Jones, Greenwood etc..) coaching, development (JHF) and just basically being a really poorly run club at every level.

So why would the idea of encouraging Grimes, Prestia, Pickett and Macca into retirement, maybe trying to trade Graham and Broad, and moving on a few players proven not up to the level despite numerous chances … depending on 2024 form 3-4 of (Hugo, MRJ, Mansell, Colina, Cumberland… why would that be anything but a positive future move in a year we have a really strong draft hand?

That is not a cull. That’s intelligent list transition, leaving us with still a heap of very very experienced and mature bodied players:

Vlastuin
Martin
Ross
Baker
TT
Short
Rioli
Lynch
Balta
Hopper
Naismith
Nank
Bolton
Graham (if no trade)
Broad (if no trade)
Miller

Carlton’s oldest player is Nic Newman at 31y 2m. They’ve got 2 x 30yo+ players

Freo have 4 x players 30+, with Walters and Taberner likely retirements end of year.

After Goldstein Essendon’s oldest player is Heppell who is 31y 10m. Just 3 players 30yo+

We currently have 7 players 30+. Will be 10
by August.

With my changes, if Broad stays we will still have 6 x 30yo players in 2025.

And people are worried it’s a ‘mature aged’ cull
that will spiral us the way of the Kangas? Just not close to reality.

Even with our bevy of kids on the weekend, we were still older than Sydney by 7-months average with our average age 25y 8m…. Here are the teams younger than us on the weekend:

Sydney was 25y 1m
Hawks 24y 8m
Freo 25y 5m
Adel 25y 6m
Eagles 25y 0m
Saints 25y 1m
North 24y 0m

If we hang onto all of our senior bodies we will be one on the oldest teams every weekend again in 2025. At what point do we entrust the younger players to play the wings? To play Grahams role? To take a back pocket over Grimes and Broad?

This isn’t about ‘playing the kids’ … our list isn’t even close to a young list and won’t be in 2025 even with the changes I’m suggesting.


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Shedding the older guys is 1 thing, where Norf went wrong is they did too many at once & did it without enough of the younger guys being ready to take over that spot. Ideally we need the kids to push them out before they go if that makes sense. As i have said previously, i am not against keeping some of them on but with the understanding that they are not guaranteed games & kids will be the priority. If they are happy with playing as depth to cover injuries etc that's better than throwing a draftee in before they are ready. Essentially the changes made will be dependent on how the kids go this yr & is seen to be in our best side & who isn't. keeping Macca/Pickett on as depth not the worst idea with 1 of them playing if say Banks can take up a spot by seasons end.

 

[TheOptimum18]

Getting JUH would of eliminated the risk of the player we drafted not working out plus the 2 - 3 years it takes for a young key forward to really starting to play consistently

Think we can do both. Draft a key fwd this draft with one of our top end picks. JUH only signing for 2 or 3 seasons atm, so we can try and target him when he next comes out of free agency.

As for the draft I’m not even sure if we need a highly rated mid, I would actually prefer we go for the best medium defender but proper defender not just a flanker type
Think that’s the biggest hole in our list apart from key position especially with Grimes and Broad towards the end of their careers

Might potentially look at Mutaz El Nour for this in the MSD.

 

[Coach_Required]

Would love to know what some of our posters here think it would cost us to pry JUH from the dogs. My personal view is it will cost us an arm and a leg.

 

[THE_GUN]

I would be ok with losing some older guys

Grimes - Cooked
Prestia - Cooked
Graham - Let him leave F/A
Broad - If he gets better $$$ thanks for your services

Draft 5 players
No free agents as we need to clean out the cap space and get kids some games to see what we need

 

[Woodstock]

Would love to know what some of our posters here think it would cost us to pry JUH from the dogs. My personal view is it will cost us an arm and a leg.

I’m thinking 2 arms and 2 legs. No point giving up our draft capital for 1 player when we have so many gaps to fill.

 

[Drunken Wookie]

I’m thinking 2 arms and 2 legs. No point giving up our draft capital for 1 player when we have so many gaps to fill.

Agree he'd take every decent pick we have and were left with one good forward and another bunch of long shots.

 

[JR82]

Our first pick which looks like top 5 at this stage will be a midfielder type as that’s the way the draft is. So we will need to trade up in the draft for a Key Forward. Probably another top 10-15 pick. Which can be done with our hoarding of draft selections.

As for targetting JUH, that’s a easy decision. He’s a number one draft pick and will be one of the better key forwards in the league. Non brainer.

JUH is staying based on what is being reported. But if he did leave & came to us, u can say goodbye to our 1st 2 picks for a start.

 

[Muddiemoose]

JUH is staying based on what is being reported. But if he did leave & came to us, u can say goodbye to our 1st 2 picks for a start.

Without a doubt but he’s just about the only player in the league I would pay the price

The biggest hole in a list by far is a young key forward
our mids are more or less set for the next 5 years, our backs with Gibcus and young look good along as the keys and a few looking decent as mediums/ flankers and likewise for our small forwards

Might be unpopular but do we need any more mids right now?
Taranto Hopper as mainstays Dow, Sonsie and Mcauliffe as that next rung down and ready to go

We still have Bolton, Baker and Graham who can all play mid as well

 

[JR82]

Without a doubt but he’s just about the only player in the league I would pay the price

The biggest hole in a list by far is a young key forward
our mids are more or less set for the next 5 years, our backs with Gibcus and young look good along as the keys and a few looking decent as mediums/ flankers and likewise for our small forwards

Might be unpopular but do we need any more mids right now?
Taranto Hopper as mainstays Dow, Sonsie and Mcauliffe as that next rung down and ready to go

We still have Bolton, Baker and Graham who can all play mid as well

I reckon we do still need a match winning/goal kicking mid in the Dusty/Bont/Petracca mould. I'd target that with our 1st pick, hopefully we can get another 1st & target a KPF with that selection, possibly in the teens. But that's more a topic for post trade when we know what picks we'll end up with.