Roast We need to move past this idea we are a young side

[SaintsSeptember]

Fair enough but not one is an out and out star yet are they. Our superstar players are still only Rooey Montagna Armo and Steven. I said there is development to come but it's a concern to me. You are obviously a better fan because you aren't panicking yet.

It because it's StKilda. How big a star would Bruce be if he was at Collingwood?
Then there are talls like McCartin who the media ( Derm ) love, because they don't come out and kick 70 goals in their first season and it gives them something to crap on about.

 

[FlyingSledghamer]

Carlisle and Gresham vs pick 5 n 25 lol
Option 1 without question. Gresh is looking good so early on.
Carlisle is an AA quality FB that can swing fwd and kick bags, whos just had an extended break to freshen up physically and mentally.. Will come back like a steam train.
I have a crazy theory... AR is trying to drill defensive accountability into the team so when we add our premier full back next year the whole teams defence has improved and Carlisle will just push us right into the next level.. Could be a stretch but could explain refusing to play tall defenders like Goddard and Lee.

 

[plugger66]

It because it's StKilda. How big a star would Bruce be if he was at Collingwood?
Then there are talls like McCartin who the media ( Derm ) love, because they don't come out and kick 70 goals in their first season and it gives them something to crap on about.

It also works the other way. If Bruce was at the pies they would be writing about how he is struggling this season but it isn't mentioned at the Saints.

 

[bird_man]

Or more likely playing for Sandy. It would most likely have been Francis and he isn't a mid. Carlisle has 7 good years of footy left.

I can't understand people that think the Carlisle trade was a flop.

Who do they think we would have taken at pick 5 and 20 odd that would have better than Gresham and Carlisle? The two best mids were gone at pick 3 and 4 (taking away academy picks) and then there was a massive gap between the rest.

That trade was a massive win for us IMO.

 

[Sainttony]

Just like to raise a couple of points. Our game plan is based on pressure causing turn overs in either the mid field or our forward 50. But when our pressure is off we do not have the personnel or structurally are we able to cope. For example yesterday we were left hopelessly exposed because we did not have a fullback or CHB selected. I think we partly lost this at selection Richo cannot rely totally on our pressure game every week and I would rather have the team structurally right and not have players able to cope with the onslaught AND just as importantly have a plan b.

Plan B yesterday should have been two extra defenders and as many around the ball as possible. Turn it into a contested slog to reduce the impact on the scoreboard. We were not going to win after 10 minutes but often coaches see the positive too much. Almost no forwards everyone around the ball or in defence. Don't worry about scoring just stop them.

The other thing we lack is an experienced hard hitting player to get us back on track. Think of Hodge,Archer, Lenny. Someone who would will themselves back into the contest and take others with him. Roo tries t do this by playing every position but he is not that type of player. We need to recruit an enforcer

And lastly and this is why I wrote this in this thread is that although we are quite young and inexperienced I would rather a team that contains older players go to Perth. Curren, Delayney, Lee. Bigger bodies , more mature and they might not have much talent but again may have coped better with the barrage.

 

[Present Not Past]

How have we gambled and lost?

What have we lost? Possibly our win / lose record for this year has been affected but that's all. We weren't expecting to play finals this year.

We won't know if we have lost until we get Carlisle on the field next year and if he has let himself go in the off season or can never recapture form then we will have lost. Possibly. Because there's no guarantee that the player we took with the Carlisle pick would go on to have a massive impact anyway.

In the sense that we traded for a player that now has to sit out for a full season as opposed to a young player who could be playing right now. I recall that both Dunstan and Billings both had very good debut seasons.

 

[plugger66]

In the sense that we traded for a player that now has to sit out for a full season as opposed to a young player who could be playing right now. I recall that both Dunstan and Billings both had very good debut seasons.

Its not about one year and most likely that player wouldn't make a difference to a result of a match.

 

[Choomah]

In the sense that we traded for a player that now has to sit out for a full season as opposed to a young player who could be playing right now. I recall that both Dunstan and Billings both had very good debut seasons.

Gresham is looking better and better every week, who do you think we would've taken at pick 5 seriously

 

[GTrains Mullet]

Pretty much this. Getting Gilbo back into the midfield would have been my no.1 priority going into that game (especially since Roberton was available again and Lee had what Hudson described as a good game with a defence-first attitude last week at Sandy- so it's not like we didn't have options to replace Gilbo with down back), after we got killed in the midfield for so much of last week's game.

If nothing else, him being in there spreads the load and he's a big, strong body who applies terrific tackling pressure and can play 80%+ of the game and spread from a contest. He's also generally good for about 10 contested possessions per game that he plays midfield.

Was surprised and disappointed that we didn't make what I would have thought was a glaringly obvious move for a game where we needed as much help as we could get in the midfield, against a midfield fed by Natanui.

I agree I'd like to see Lee get rewarded for good VFL form and Gilbert released in the midfield.

We need to start rewarding form otherwise players like Lee and to some respects Curren, who might Not necessarily in our long term plan get discouraged and I fear first team players can get complacent.

 

[Glen Buterol]

Gresham is looking better and better every week, who do you think we would've taken at pick 5 seriously

Gresh looks bloody good but it would've been nice to tank it up & get Parish. He looks a genuine gun.

 

[Glen Buterol]

Ps when can i change my av? I'm kindve sick of old ice addict Tom hickey.

 

[Saintt]

Our biggest problem is that people seem to think our rebuild should nearly be over.

We started a 5 year drafting plan at the end of 2013.

2013 we bought in 3 top 20 picks, all who have shown promise but are still inconsistent

2014 we drafted two KPP's that will take up to 5 years before we see the best of them

2015 we bought in a quality key back that hasn't played a game yet as well as midfielder who is just easing into it now.

So we are 3/5's of the way through our rebuild. Most of the guys taken before that are solid players at best and some won't be there when we are competing for a flag.

Our plan was to be be top 4 by 2018.

 

[Choomah]

Neva

Ps when can i change my av? I'm kindve sick of old ice addict Tom hickey.

 

[bird_man]

Our plan was to be be top 4 by 2018.

That's right. 5 years of drafting (and FA) prior to that means 2013-2017 if my maths is correct.

 

[sonnywalters]

here are the better mids IMO:
fyfe, gaz, priddis, mitchell, burgoyne, shuey, dangerfield, selwood, sloane, shiel, ward, kennedy, hannelberry, cripps, libba, pendlebury, masten, neale, treloar, montagna

that's 20... but he'd be paid better than 13 on that list

luke parker clearly better than jack steven. Gaff won the eagles b & f last year so you have to mention him.

macrae, deledio, coniglio, viney, martin, gray, gibbs all at least as good. So that is 29. Then there is Nate Jones, Marc Murphy and Zach Merrett. That makes 32.

So i dont think anyone can say Steven is 'easily' in the AFL top 15. He might sneak in to the top 20 - if he is lucky. But no way 'easily' top 15. Top 30 is very good company.

 

[sonnywalters]

That's right. 5 years of drafting (and FA) prior to that means 2013-2017 if my maths is correct.

Still plausible. The only sides who seem clearly ahead of us looking fwd are GWS and Dogs.

But then there is the likes of Geelong, Eagles, Crows, Port who arent likely to fall dramatically in the next couple of years either. The Pies may still come good at some stage.

So top 4 will be certainly extremely challenging in such a short time frame. Top 8 will be a challenge.

 

[gringo2011]

Or more likely playing for Sandy. It would most likely have been Francis and he isn't a mid. Carlisle has 7 good years of footy left.

We would be set for our Dempster replacement and he would be

Still plausible. The only sides who seem clearly ahead of us looking fwd are GWS and Dogs.

But then there is the likes of Geelong, Eagles, Crows, Port who arent likely to fall dramatically in the next couple of years either. The Pies may still come good at some stage.

So top 4 will be certainly extremely challenging in such a short time frame. Top 8 will be a challenge.

Melbourne are coming. Essendon will be much better than people think and even Carlton are on the improve. GCS and Brisbane can't be s**t for ever and Sydney have an incredible list thanks to concessions the AFL snuck them before closing them up. It's going to be tough to even make finals over the next few years.

 

[plugger66]

here are the better mids IMO:
fyfe, gaz, priddis, mitchell, burgoyne, shuey, dangerfield, selwood, sloane, shiel, ward, kennedy, hannelberry, cripps, libba, pendlebury, masten, neale, treloar, montagna

that's 20... but he'd be paid better than 13 on that list

Steven has Masten, Libba, Neale and Joey covered for a start and secondly how do you know all those wages? I think he also has Burgoyne covered. And shoel would be close as would cripps and Sloane.

 

[Defacto]

Steven has Masten, Libba, Neale and Joey covered for a start and secondly how do you know all those wages? I think he also has Burgoyne covered. And shoel would be close as would cripps and Sloane.

I think its clear you havent watched those players much

 

[SaintsSeptember]

See people start saying that Montagna is better than Steven and you lose me.
Its like saying a Ferrari is better than a Hummer, yes, but the opposite is also true.

 

[plugger66]

I think its clear you havent watched those players much

Well I do but that's a great way to discuss things. Lets just look at the one player we both know we watch. Joey. Firstly he isn't even playing in the midfield anymore so he is irrelevant but lets just play this game. The last 2 years Jack has been fit he has won the B&F and joey hasn't won it. That suggests the coaches think Jack is a better player for a start. And you may watch these players a lot or may not but I can safely say you have no idea what any of them are earning. IMO you get Jacks was nearly 2 million dollars wrong over the 5 year contract.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Well I do but that's a great way to discuss things. Lets just look at the one player we both know we watch. Joey. Firstly he isn't even playing in the midfield anymore so he is irrelevant but lets just play this game. The last 2 years Jack has been fit he has won the B&F and joey hasn't won it. That suggests the coaches think Jack is a better player for a start.

Joey got more B&F votes per game than Steven (and everyone else) did last year, so he would have won the B&F had he played the 5 games he missed and maintained his votes per game average. Even if everyone else had also played every game and maintained their averages. So I guess that suggests they thought he was better than Jack last year.

I for one was really bullish about what Jack would produce this year, but have been a bit underwhelmed so far. He's still a way off being the really damaging attacking force he was in 2013 as far as I'm concerned. Perhaps he needs a Lenny Hayes in there to release him from doing so much of the grunt work.

 

[plugger66]

Joey got more B&F votes per game than Steven (and everyone else) did last year, so he would have won the B&F had he played the 5 games he missed and maintained his votes per game average. Even if everyone else had also played every game and maintained their averages. So I guess that suggests they thought he was better than Jack last year.

I for one was really bullish about what Jack would produce this year, but have been a bit underwhelmed so far. He's still a way off being the really damaging attacking force he was in 2013 as far as I'm concerned. Perhaps he needs a Lenny Hayes in there to release him from doing so much of the grunt work.

The fact remains and its pretty important fact that Joey isn't playing in the middle now and secondly we have no idea who is earning more either. I think it would be very much the same. Glad you told me that though. It makes me feel better. As for Jack being underwhelming well apart from 2 weeks ago he has been very consistent. Normally in the best 3 or 4 every game and his stats are pretty much identical to the previous 2 good years. The only stat not similar at all is contested and uncontested possessions and he is getting far to many contested possessions even though we were told he would be more outside this season. He has been far more inside which makes his run less notable and is down on bouncing because of that. I think these factors make it look like he is having less impact. I don't think Lenny is the problem as his stats last year were probably better than 2013. Armo maybe a problem though and Ross playing more outside as well.

And the major stat that Jack is down on is kicking. Even though people don't rate his kicking he does provide the forwards a chance to lead if he has the ball. The club need to work out a way of freeing him up to get more outside ball which will give us more run because we have bugger all runners as it is. That should be what they are working on at training.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Steven is averaging nearly 13 contested disposals per game this year, last year was 9.

Montagna won 10 or so in his best year, 2010.

Comparing apples with pears.

 

[Defacto]

The fact remains and its pretty important fact that Joey isn't playing in the middle now and secondly we have no idea who is earning more either. I think it would be very much the same. Glad you told me that though. It makes me feel better. As for Jack being underwhelming well apart from 2 weeks ago he has been very consistent. Normally in the best 3 or 4 every game and his stats are pretty much identical to the previous 2 good years. The only stat not similar at all is contested and uncontested possessions and he is getting far to many contested possessions even though we were told he would be more outside this season. He has been far more inside which makes his run less notable and is down on bouncing because of that. I think these factors make it look like he is having less impact. I don't think Lenny is the problem as his stats last year were probably better than 2013. Armo maybe a problem though and Ross playing more outside as well.

And the major stat that Jack is down on is kicking. Even though people don't rate his kicking he does provide the forwards a chance to lead if he has the ball. The club need to work out a way of freeing him up to get more outside ball which will give us more run because we have bugger all runners as it is. That should be what they are working on at training.

if montagna was 26 do you think he'd still be playing that sweeping role across half back? or would he be in the guts similar steven?