Religion When is slavery, not slavery?

[CM86]

Only when you have no understanding of what constituted 'slavery' for the Jews.
The bond servant system / slavery was actually a form of communal welfare.
The word slavery is so emotive though, rightfully, that any use of it in our culture has negative connotations, however the reality is that what was considered slavery is quite the opposite of what we know it as.

Take the emotive and negative connotations away from the word slavery and read it again.
The servant / 'slave' relationship was designed so that people who had absolutely no chance of survival could be looked after by families that could support them and they were released from this relationship every 50 years. Why is interesting is the amount of families that would willingly go back in to 'slavery' after being released. In any case, filter it as you want to ensure you can arrive at a point that allows you to feel the appropriate levels of outrage, but please remember that your foundation for it is wrong.

Made a new thread, because it is going off topic in the marriage thread.

So, is it still slavery, if you enslave someone who may be too poor to survive?
Is it a direction Australia should take? We could rejig the economy this way! Labor crisis gone, welfare gone, debt crisis gone!

 

[not a warmonger]

Made a new thread, because it is going off topic in the marriage thread.

So, is it still slavery, if you enslave someone who may be too poor to survive?
Is it a direction Australia should take? We could rejig the economy this way! Labor crisis gone, welfare gone, debt crisis gone!

Since Spartanwa is good with slavery why don't you ask him/her if willing to be your slave?

 

[Bennett.]

A lot of the time 'slavery' is actually more meant to be servitude. Servants.
The Greek word in the NT, something which Paul calls himself is Doulos, which has been translated as slave but actually has a wider meaning of a relationship of dependence.
The Hebrew word in the OT which is the equivalent of Doulos is Ebed. Paul calls himself a Doulos (servant) of Christ. Moses called himself the Ebed (servant) of God.
The negative connotations of the word slave and all the brutality, cruelty etc that go with it can conjure up
An extremely different understanding of what slavery, in biblical terms actually meant.
Not a domineering and cruel relationship, but one of service.

 

[Illinois Nazi]

When it's ajar.

 

[CM86]

When it's ajar.

When it's allah?

 

[CM86]

A lot of the time 'slavery' is actually more meant to be servitude. Servants.
The Greek word in the NT, something which Paul calls himself is Doulos, which has been translated as slave but actually has a wider meaning of a relationship of dependence.
The Hebrew word in the OT which is the equivalent of Doulos is Ebed. Paul calls himself a Doulos (servant) of Christ. Moses called himself the Ebed (servant) of God.
The negative connotations of the word slave and all the brutality, cruelty etc that go with it can conjure up
An extremely different understanding of what slavery, in biblical terms actually meant.
Not a domineering and cruel relationship, but one of service.

Oh ok, so there was no slavery back in the day, just servants?
Do you have something to back that up?

Can we bring back servants now? Or is that like charity workers, or not-for-profit industries?

 

[Bennett.]

Actually don't worry about it. You're not interested in having a conversation at all but would rather make smart remarks and ask stupid questions. All good.

 

[not a warmonger]

Actually don't worry about it. You're not interested in having a conversation at all but would rather make smart remarks and ask stupid questions. All good.

Weak and pathetic. The bible sanctions slavery not only of the slave but his wife and children forever if he weds after first becoming a slave.

What a loving "God" you worship.

 

[CM86]

Actually don't worry about it. You're not interested in having a conversation at all but would rather make smart remarks and ask stupid questions. All good.

No, I am trying to understand how slavery isn't slavery.

You have stated that it isn't, but not backed it with anything. I'm trying to pull information from you, as to what you actually mean.

You said it's not slavery, but communal welfare.
You said that they are free to go every 50 years...
Now you're saying that they aren't slaves, but servants who decided to worship and serve someone, like they would christ or god. (I assume that was your point?).

 

[Bennett.]

No, I am trying to understand how slavery isn't slavery.

You have stated that it isn't, but not backed it with anything. I'm trying to pull information from you, as to what you actually mean.

You said it's not slavery, but communal welfare.
You said that they are free to go every 50 years...
Now you're saying that they aren't slaves, but servants who decided to worship and serve someone, like they would christ or god. (I assume that was your point?).

You need to understand that that time period was FULL of evil of which slavery was a part absolutely.
The difference in the Hebrew culture however was that it was incumbent on the slave owners to protect and look after their 'property'. People sold themselves and their families into slavery so that they could be cared for.
The point is that you need to be careful to not approach this topic emotively because the reality presented in the bible is far far different from the historical evil slavery we all know.

 

[not a warmonger]

You need to understand that that time period was FULL of evil of which slavery was a part absolutely.
The difference in the Hebrew culture however was that it was incumbent on the slave owners to protect and look after their 'property'. People sold themselves and their families into slavery so that they could be cared for.
The point is that you need to be careful to not approach this topic emotively because the reality presented in the bible is far far different from the historical evil slavery we all know.

what utter bullshit. Are you willing to be some one elses property?

 

[Docker Alyssa]

I'm not for slavery in any context. Or religions. But you are strawmanning so hard...

He is saying "context" is important. The so called biblical times is not the times of America that we associate with modern atrocity of slavery. And I can see some validity in that argument.

It's so childish to say things like "so you're ok being a slave then" as a retort to him defending the context of slavery and its biblical meaning.

 

[Bennett.]

what utter bullshit. Are you willing to be some one elses property?

If you had nothing else, no chance of survival, no house, no food of course you would.

 

[CM86]

You need to understand that that time period was FULL of evil of which slavery was a part absolutely.
The difference in the Hebrew culture however was that it was incumbent on the slave owners to protect and look after their 'property'. People sold themselves and their families into slavery so that they could be cared for.
The point is that you need to be careful to not approach this topic emotively because the reality presented in the bible is far far different from the historical evil slavery we all know.

It's part of the evil, but far far different from slavery.

I'm not talking about slaves in America. I'm saying that slavery is slavery, no matter how you want to twist it.

If someone told me that they could beat their dog with a stick, as long as it recovered in two days, I'd call them inhuman filth.
Someone saying the same thing about a human, and that it's actually protecting them... is ridiculous to me.

 

[Bennett.]

It's part of the evil, but far far different from slavery.

I'm not talking about slaves in America. I'm saying that slavery is slavery, no matter how you want to twist it.

If someone told me that they could beat their dog with a stick, as long as it recovered in two days, I'd call them inhuman filth.
Someone saying the same thing about a human, and that it's actually protecting them... is ridiculous to me.

For the third time, that verse about beatings and recovering is about PUNISHMENT FOR THE PERPETRATORS.
I really hope you are being wilfully ignorant because if you're not I worry about you ability to comprehend.

 

[CM86]

For the third time, that verse about beatings and recovering is about PUNISHMENT FOR THE PERPETRATORS.
I really hope you are being wilfully ignorant because if you're not I worry about you ability to comprehend.

Wait, the owners are beaten, but can only be beaten to the point that they will recover within two days?
If that's the case, then yes I genuinely didn't comprehend.

What are the owners beaten for? If they mistreat their slaves, the owner is beaten? By who?

 

[not a warmonger]

If you had nothing else, no chance of survival, no house, no food of course you would.

You would let yourself and family be slaves for the rest of their lives. you really are as dumb as they come.

 

[Bennett.]

Wait, the owners are beaten, but can only be beaten to the point that they will recover within two days?
If that's the case, then yes I genuinely didn't comprehend.

What are the owners beaten for? If they mistreat their slaves, the owner is beaten? By who?

The point is that there were specific rules for care of the slaves. Of course there would be some people who would abuse their authority, because face it, human nature etc etc
If an owner was found to be mistreating their slaves and beat them to death then there would be extreme punishment. Don't forget these Hebrews came from an Egyptian culture and had themselves been slaves. Unfortunately as was often the case, they were slow to learn and hard headed and would abuse their new freedom.

 

[Bennett.]

You would let yourself and family be slaves for the rest of their lives. you really are as dumb as they come.

Yeah, you're a twit.

 

[CM86]

The point is that there were specific rules for care of the slaves. Of course there would be some people who would abuse their authority, because face it, human nature etc etc
If an owner was found to be mistreating their slaves and beat them to death then there would be extreme punishment. Don't forget these Hebrews came from an Egyptian culture and had themselves been slaves. Unfortunately as was often the case, they were slow to learn and hard headed and would abuse their new freedom.

Wait... so I didn't misunderstand. I genuinely thought I'd ****ed up.

Telling your kid not to smash their xbox, isn't because you care about the xbox's wellbeing... it's because you paid for it, and you don't want to waste your money.

What was the extreme punishment of beating your slave to death?
Was there a punishment for raping your slave?

At the end of the day, and this seems to be something you cannot get your head around, it's all still slavery.
Owning someone is terrible. And saying that they were protected, because owners were told not to beat them to death... is ridiculous.

 

[Bennett.]

Wait... so I didn't misunderstand. I genuinely thought I'd stuffed up.

Telling your kid not to smash their xbox, isn't because you care about the xbox's wellbeing... it's because you paid for it, and you don't want to waste your money.

What was the extreme punishment of beating your slave to death?
Was there a punishment for raping your slave?

At the end of the day, and this seems to be something you cannot get your head around, it's all still slavery.
Owning someone is terrible. And saying that they were protected, because owners were told not to beat them to death... is ridiculous.

Ok, the purpose of Jewish slavery, again, was designed so that there would be no people or families
That had to struggle to survive. I.e, male dominated society, woman loses her husband and has kids so,what hope is there for her? Being taken in under 'slavery' ensured she would have safety, food and protection.

Can't see what you aren't getting about this.

 

[CM86]

Ok, the purpose of Jewish slavery, again, was designed so that there would be no people or families
That had to struggle to survive. I.e, male dominated society, woman loses her husband and has kids so,what hope is there for her? Being taken in under 'slavery' ensured she would have safety, food and protection.

Can't see what you aren't getting about this.

So, every slave became a slave by choice?
They applied and were accepted as slaves (assuming the parents decided for the children) who then had to remain a slave for 50 years?

Do you have something to back this up?

 

[Bennett.]

So, every slave became a slave by choice?
They applied and were accepted as slaves (assuming the parents decided for the children) who then had to remain a slave for 50 years?

Do you have something to back this up?

There is some good information in this.
Apologies for the king James language though - I struggle with it too!

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/slavery.html

 

[CM86]

There is some good information in this.
Apologies for the king James language though - I struggle with it too!

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/slavery.html

Read it.

Looks like you have talked about aspects of certain slaves. Hebrew slaves, not alien slaves.

Can you quote part of it that you think summerises the protection of all slaves?

On top of that, it's verses from the bible that it seems to get all of its facts from. I was hoping for a historical record of some sort.

 

[Bennett.]

Read it.

Looks like you have talked about aspects of certain slaves. Hebrew slaves, not alien slaves.

Can you quote part of it that you think summerises the protection of all slaves?

On top of that, it's verses from the bible that it seems to get all of its facts from. I was hoping for a historical record of some sort.

Your response is how I expected.
OT IS law and history for Jews. It hasn't changed, figure it out.