Moved Thread Who was/is the better player. Gary Ablett jnr or Dustin Martin?

[Falcon3518]

Absolutely no need to insult Polly who was a better footballer than every other footballer that I have seen. I thought you were better than that.

As for this thread, Dusty is better in all facets of the game. Some people seem to forget that despite the high number of possessions that GAJ got in the 2008 GF he failed to get his team over the line. Contrast that game with the 2020 GF.

I didn’t mean it like that, it’s just he played so long ago that it’s hard for people to remember how good he was. Most of the younger gen would not be bothered to watch games in black and white unless they are hardcore footy fans.

But yeah I agree on the Dusty thing


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[HalloweenJack]

I didn’t mean it like that, it’s just he played so long ago that it’s hard for people to remember how good he was. Most of the younger gen would not be bothered to watch games in black and white unless they are hardcore footy fans.

But yeah I agree on the Dusty thing


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Thanks for the reply. I enjoy reading your posts and often I am in agreement.

 

[Falcon3518]

Also just another thing I found out in GAJ and Dustys best years 09 v 17 they had the exact same disposals but Dusty kicked 10 more goals. 27-37 and got 6 more Brownlow votes 30-36. So yeah even peak H&A Dusty is better. I think some people remember GAJ very differently or are underrating Martin very heavily.


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[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Also just another thing I found out in GAJ and Dustys best years 09 v 17 they had the exact same disposals but Dusty kicked 10 more goals. 27-37 and got 6 more Brownlow votes 30-36. So yeah even peak H&A Dusty is better. I think some people remember GAJ very differently or are underrating Martin very heavily.


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80% to 17%. Deal with it.

 

[Falcon3518]

80% to 17%. Deal with it.

Ooof I’ve hit a nerve lol. Fact is:

Peak Finals- Dusty
Consistency Finals-Dusty
Peak H&A-Dusty
Consistency H&A-GAJ

People can think whatever they like, most people thought the earth was flat once.


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[Sky]

Not trying to say Dusty is better or anything, but I think it would be good to see a refresher of his 2017 season. Definitely worth the watch. It would be good if somebody could post GAJ highlights as well.




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As amazing as Dusty was in the 2017 season, I think people are quick to forget he won the Brownlow by 3 votes and Dangerfield got suspended that year.

You are familiar with my posting and know I’m the furtherest thing from a Dangerfield defendant but his 2016 and 2017 was amazing

 

[Falcon3518]

As amazing as Dusty was in the 2017 season, I think people are quick to forget he won the Brownlow by 3 votes and Dangerfield got suspended that year.

You are familiar with my posting and know I’m the furtherest thing from a Dangerfield defendant but his 2016 and 2017 was amazing

Yeah he was amazing too. I really rate Danger after this season, I think he’s your 2nd best ever mid. Better than Fyfe imo, but I think I’m in the minority there. His consistency and now finals performance is enough to put him over the edge for me.


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[Falcon3518]

Ablett was infront by a long way in the 2014 Brownlow and then Brent Macaffer ruined the remainder of his career. Fyfe would’ve then won the Brownlow but got suspended so it went to Priddis lol.

Ablett and Fyfe are technically should’ve been 3x Brownlow winners.

H&A: Fyfe > Danger > Dusty
Finals: Dusty > Danger > Fyfe

True but footy is harsh that way. Dangers extra 5 AAs over Fyfes extra brownlow make him better in H&A to me but I totally get where you are coming from. I think durability/consistency of players should be taken into account. But yeah if Fyfe and GAJ didn’t get injured they’d have more Brownlows.


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[Sky]

Fyfe has only 3 AA’s? Wow.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

Martin isn't fit to tie Ablett's bootlaces.

Jnr is on another level or two.

 

[Falcon3518]

Martin isn't fit to tie Ablett's bootlaces.

Jnr is on another level or two.

Except he isn’t cause he’s ass in finals.


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[Fadge]

Also just another thing I found out in GAJ and Dustys best years 09 v 17 they had the exact same disposals but Dusty kicked 10 more goals. 27-37 and got 6 more Brownlow votes 30-36. So yeah even peak H&A Dusty is better. I think some people remember GAJ very differently or are underrating Martin very heavily.

No acknowledgement that GAJ played three fewer home and away games (and the same number of finals) in 2009 than Martin did in 2017?

Gee, that's unlike you and your transparent and accurate posting style.

We all know 2017 was Martin's best season by a long way, but It's the first time I hear 2009 was Ablett's best season.

Ablett's 2007 to 2014 meld into one another for mine - he basically played at the same, elite level for 8 years straight...

In fact, if you to pick the best nine seasons from their combined careers, eight seasons would be GAJ's 2007 to 2014.

 

[Fadge]

Dusty better in the big games

If you compare GAJ's performances in finals for Geelong between 2007 and 2010 with Martin's for Richmond between 2017 and 2020, there is a bee's dick between them and actually a reasonable argument that GAJ's performances were better.

 

[Lethality]

Also just another thing I found out in GAJ and Dustys best years 09 v 17 they had the exact same disposals but Dusty kicked 10 more goals. 27-37 and got 6 more Brownlow votes 30-36. So yeah even peak H&A Dusty is better. I think some people remember GAJ very differently or are underrating Martin very heavily.


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Dusty also kicked the ball more, as well as more goals.

 

[Pred4termined]

If you compare GAJ's performances in finals for Geelong between 2007 and 2010 with Martin's for Richmond between 2017 and 2020, there is a bee's dick between them and actually a reasonable argument that GAJ's performances were better.

I think I saw on an earlier post Dusty averaged just under triple the goals during the period you mentioned. If this is correct, considering they both played mid/fwd and Dusty had more BOG’s I’m not sure how you think there is a bee’s dick between them. This isn’t SuperCoach, 1-2s at HB are not valuable disposals.

 

[Fadge]

I think I saw on an earlier post Dusty averaged just under triple the goals during the period you mentioned. If this is correct, considering they both played mid/fwd and Dusty had more BOG’s I’m not sure how you think there is a bee’s dick between them. This isn’t SuperCoach, 1-2s at HB are not valuable disposals.

And here we have another Richmond supporter who also is unlikely to have even watched Ablett's finals between 2007 and 2010 if they're talking about 1-2's at half back for Ablett...

 

[Pred4termined]

And here we have another Richmond supporter who also is unlikely to have even watched Ablett's finals between 2007 and 2010 if they're talking about 1-2's at half back for Ablett...

I saw them and besides the 08 finals series he wasn’t even the most influential player in his team. The stats don’t lie, Dustin’s was better.

It’s nearly triple the goals ffs and he won every award during the flag years. Do you watch AFL media at all? They repeatedly call Dusty the best big game player the game has seen. Not a peep for GAJ. You can argue GAJ is better overall which is fair enough, but in regards to finals it’s a fact it’s not close.

 

[Fadge]

I saw them and besides the 08 finals series he wasn’t even the most influential player in his team. The stats don’t lie, Dustin’s was better.

It’s nearly triple the goals ffs and he won every award during the flag years. Do you watch AFL media at all? They repeatedly call Dusty the best big game player the game has seen. Not a peep for GAJ. You can argue GAJ is better overall which is fair enough, but in regards to finals it’s a fact it’s not close.

I've previously completed an assessment of GAJ's 2007 to 2010 finals series with Martin's 2017 to 2020 finals series and shared on Bigfooty, and there is barely a bee's dick of difference in their respective performances.

Of course the media are going to be seduced by the 3 Norm Smith Medals and 3 Gary Ayres Medals, It's an easy position, and like many on BigFooty it's all or nothing (as I've said before).

If Ablett Jnr wasn't Geelong's best and most influential player across the 2007 to 2010 finals series (and indeed the home and away games), who was?

 

[Pred4termined]

I've previously completed an assessment of GAJ's 2007 to 2010 finals series with Martin's 2017 to 2020 finals series and shared on Bigfooty, and there is barely a bee's dick of difference in their respective performances.

Of course the media are going to be seduced by the 3 Norm Smith Medals and 3 Gary Ayres Medals, It's an easy position, and like many on BigFooty it's all or nothing (as I've said before).

If Ablett Jnr wasn't Geelong's best and most influential player across the 2007 to 2010 finals series (and indeed the home and away games), who was?

Could you possibly sum up the stats for me? I find it hard to believe scoring nearly triple the amount of goals isn’t good enough. I think you may be overvaluing disposals.

I think the Richmond supporter starting with N and ending with j in the Dusty 4th norm thread gave his Gary Ayers medal winners from those years. It was like Bartel and Stevie J/Chapman or something for 07/09. JNRs 2010 finals series was not impressive at all. Didn’t even kick a goal. I’m sure you could find somebody better.

 

[Fadge]

Could you possibly sum up the stats for me? I find it hard to believe scoring nearly triple the amount of goals isn’t good enough. I think you may be overvaluing disposals.

I think the Richmond supporter starting with N and ending with j in the Dusty 4th norm thread gave his Gary Ayers medal winners from those years. It was like Bartel and Stevie J/Chapman or something for 07/09. JNRs 2010 finals series was not impressive at all. Didn’t even kick a goal. I’m sure you could find somebody better.

Here it is

Ablett Jnr wasn't a massive goalkicker during his prime, his role was to constantly bring it into the forward line for others to capitalise. I'm sure you'll agree Geelong didn't have too many problems hitting the scoreboard between 2007 and 2010...

Jnr's 2010 finals series not impressive? He was ONLY Geelong's best player in two of their three finals, and their third best in the other. But he 'didn't even kick a goal...'

And the Richmond supporter's N something something J's opinion is set in concrete?

In 2007, Ablett was Geelong's second best player in their Qualifying Final win, and best on ground (comfortably) in their 5 point Preliminary Final win against Collingwood. He was quiet by his standards in their 119 point Grand Final win.

In comparison in 2007:
Bartel - 5th best, 4th best, 9th best for Geelong in their 3 games.
Scarlett was possibly the player closest to GAJ in that finals series, with a best on, 6th best and 3rd best in the Grand Final.

In 2009, Ablett was in Geelong's best 5 players in all three finals, with a best on ground in the Preliminary Final.

Chapman was probably the other player in the mix for player of the finals series, with his Norm Smith Medal in a very close vote (tied with Gram), third best in the Preliminary Final, and outside the best in the Qualifying Final but 16 possessions/2 goals.

Based on your omission, I assume you're conceding GAJ was Geelong's best in the 2008 Finals series?

 

[Pred4termined]

Here it is

Ablett Jnr wasn't a massive goalkicker during his prime, his role was to constantly bring it into the forward line for others to capitalise. I'm sure you'll agree Geelong didn't have too many problems hitting the scoreboard between 2007 and 2010...

Jnr's 2010 finals series not impressive? He was ONLY Geelong's best player in two of their three finals, and their third best in the other. But he 'didn't even kick a goal...'

And the Richmond supporter's N something something J's opinion is set in concrete?

In 2007, Ablett was Geelong's second best player in their Qualifying Final win, and best on ground (comfortably) in their 5 point Preliminary Final win against Collingwood. He was quiet by his standards in their 119 point Grand Final win.

In comparison in 2007:
Bartel - 5th best, 4th best, 9th best for Geelong in their 3 games.
Scarlett was possibly the player closest to GAJ in that finals series, with a best on, 6th best and 3rd best in the Grand Final.

In 2009, Ablett was in Geelong's best 5 players in all three finals, with a best on ground in the Preliminary Final.

Chapman was probably the other player in the mix for player of the finals series, with his Norm Smith Medal in a very close vote (tied with Gram), third best in the Preliminary Final, and outside the best in the Qualifying Final but 16 possessions/2 goals.

Based on your omission, I assume you're conceding GAJ was Geelong's best in the 2008 Finals series?

Ok just a couple of things I’ve notice with your excel.

1. You haven’t adjusted Dustys 2020 finals stats for shortened game-time. Add 25% on those. Which should bump up the ratings by 5 points on each.

2. Those 2010 performances are not 90/100. You’ve got 36 dis, 0 goals and 40, 0 goals. Those are numbers Parish and Mitchell get every week and to not score a single goal with them says everything. You’ve even got a 32 dis 2 goal game as 85 which is fair but why do you rate those 2 above that? They are worse. They should both be 80/100 easy.

3. Because of the above mentioned 80/100s. That 29 disposal 0 goal game is not even close to an 80/100 performance. That’s 70ish/100. What pure inside mid doesn’t get 29? Any lower and it’s very ordinary. It would also match with your 75/100 for a 25 disposal 1 goal game.

Rest of your rating are fair enough. So what’s the average now? I’m assuming something like 85/100 average for Dusty and 75/100 ish average for GAJ. Yeah that’s about what I think. It’s the different between very good and great/excellent which is what most people generally think of their finals records.

EDIT: To your last question. In 08 finals series yeah he was probably Geelongs best. Haven’t gone in depth with his peers but 30 dis 1 goal average is hard to beat.

 

[Fadge]

1. You haven’t adjusted Dustys 2020 finals stats for shortened game-time. Add 25% on those. Which should bump up the ratings by 5 points on each.

WTF? I stated the possessions were for reference purpose only, and that Dusty's 2020 Grand Final was rated as the benchmark and therefore 100. That is, the highest rating of all games, and other games were rated relative to that!

2. Those 2010 performances are not 90/100. You’ve got 36 dis, 0 goals and 40, 0 goals. Those are numbers Parish and Mitchell get every week and to not score a single goal with them says everything. You’ve even got a 32 dis 2 goal game as 85 which is fair but why do you rate those 2 above that? They are worse. They should both be 80/100 easy.

What is your obsession with goals? I was at the 2010 Preliminary Final and rated Ablett the best on ground at the time despite playing in the losing team. It was a phenomenal performance. 'Not scoring a goal' doesn't really say anything at all.

3. Because of the above mentioned 80/100s. That 29 disposal 0 goal game is not even close to an 80/100 performance. That’s 70ish/100. What pure inside mid doesn’t get 29? Any lower and it’s very ordinary. It would also match with your 75/100 for a 25 disposal 1 goal game.

Frig me. You can always give and take from each of the ratings. I stated later on that I felt Ablett's 2008 Grand Final was superior to Martin's 2017 and 2019 Grand Finals, so we could also adjust there in favour of Ablett. Ablett's 2007 Preliminary Final was possibly the second best game of all games listed, where he iced the game with the winning goal with about 5 minutes to play. Should I give a few more points to Ablett there?

The bottom line is, there is not a material difference between Martin's 2017 to 2020 performances as the purported 'Best Finals Player of All Time', and Ablett during 2007 to 2010 who allegedly played his best footy during the home and away season, and have provided the analysis to back it up.

You should actually watch games of football instead of looking at stats sheets and in particular the goals column, you may end up with a more balanced and accurate assessment....

 

[Pred4termined]

WTF? I stated the possessions were for reference purpose only, and that Dusty's 2020 Grand Final was rated as the benchmark and therefore 100. That is, the highest rating of all games, and other games were rated relative to that!

What is your obsession with goals? I was at the 2010 Preliminary Final and rated Ablett the best on ground at the time despite playing in the losing team. It was a phenomenal performance. 'Not scoring a goal' doesn't really say anything at all.

Frig me. You can always give and take from each of the ratings. I stated later on that I felt Ablett's 2008 Grand Final was superior to Martin's 2017 and 2019 Grand Finals, so we could also adjust there in favour of Ablett. Ablett's 2007 Preliminary Final was possibly the second best game of all games listed, where he iced the game with the winning goal with about 5 minutes to play. Should I give a few more points to Ablett there?

The bottom line is, there is not a material difference between Martin's 2017 to 2020 performances as the purported 'Best Finals Player of All Time', and Ablett during 2007 to 2010 who allegedly played his best footy during the home and away season, and have provided the analysis to back it up.

You should actually watch games of football instead of looking at stats sheets and in particular the goals column, you may end up with a more balanced and accurate assessment....

If this excel is based on your ‘eye test’ how else can I gauge it?

Also goals are very important. It again separates accumulators from damaging players. Do people rate Mitchell higher than Dusty cause he’s gotten 50 disposal games? No. In fact Lauchie Neale got it in the 2019 QF and Dusty shredded him a new one with only 14 dis for 6 goals. Which should be 95/100 btw.

The bottom line is most people rate GAJs finals record as very good and Dustys as GOAT contention. So a 75/100 compared to 85/100 is more than fair and accurate rating. Find me an article of somebody rating GAJs finals record as good or better than Dustys. Good luck.

 

[Fadge]

The bottom line is most people rate GAJs finals record as very good and Dustys as GOAT contention. So a 75/100 compared to 85/100 is more than fair and accurate rating. Find me an article of somebody rating GAJs finals record as good or better than Dustys. Good luck.

There have been multiple posters recently telling us all how crap Ablett was in finals and that he was a home and away specialist.

I do understand why people may have that opinion - he set such a high bar for himself during the home and away that it was impossible for him to go to an even higher level in finals.

I see GAJ as a 98 out of 100 performer in home and away, who 'declined' to a 95 out of 100 in finals.

Martin has performed at an 85 out of 100 in home and away, who increased his output to a 97 out of 100 in finals.

Finals are absolutely important, but when they account for between 5% and 10% of your data set, we quickly understand why GAJ is firmly in the discussions as top 5 or 10 players in the history of the game, whilst Martin is around the top 50.

 

[Pred4termined]

There have been multiple posters recently telling us all how crap Ablett was in finals and that he was a home and away specialist.

I do understand why people may have that opinion - he set such a high bar for himself during the home and away that it was impossible for him to go to an even higher level in finals.

I see GAJ as a 98 out of 100 performer in home and away, who 'declined' to a 95 out of 100 in finals.

Martin has performed at an 85 out of 100 in home and away, who increased his output to a 97 out of 100 in finals.

Finals are absolutely important, but when they account for between 5% and 10% of your data set, we quickly understand why GAJ is firmly in the discussions as top 5 or 10 players in the history of the game, whilst Martin is around the top 50.

Haha no. The word crap can’t be used to describe GAJ in any sense. Imo Dusty and Ablett have the same problem but in the opposite areas. Like you said GAJ is so good in H&A that is finals performances don’t look as good in comparison. The same is true for Martin in finals compared to H&A, 4x AAs and 200+ Brownlow votes (9th all time) is extremely impressive but people call him lazy for some reason. My rating:

Finals: Martin A+ GAJ A-
H&A: Martin A- GAJ A+

Too hard to split for me. Top 50 is way too low in my opinion. If Dusty is 50 who’s 49?