Coaching Staff Past Coach: Matthew Knights - Finally gets his second shot - 5/5

[ant555]

Yep, same here.

Whats also killing me is we haven't addressed this through drafting and trading the past few years.

I still can't quite come to terms why we didn't get Rodan with Pick 60 odd when he did pre season with us 2 years ago but decided to keep Bolton, JJ, Heffernan and Pev in the side. He would have been perfect for us right now.

What's also killing me is seeing Rioli run around with such poise and class yet we picked up Myers who may or may not be a midfielder and looks like he might be another guy we'll have to find a position for.

You see Rioli running around playing the same role as Lovett , Jetta or Davey play. Very clasy player Rioli but how many players of the same mould do you put in one side ?
And what position do we have to find Myers ? He plays half back/wing/midfield so like a lot of other players he can be used in the midfield roatations or across half back. ____ me he has played a couple of NAB Cup games and a couple of VFL games and he is already written off. Talk about going off early

 

[Terry Tan]

Knights will improve and get the job done at Bomberland. He can only learn from what just happened. The Dons looked all at sea. He is too smart to not learn and rebound. He was always a smart player.

Having said that, I think Essendon erred in not picking Hardwick as coach - 2 Premierships with 2 clubs, as tough and smart a player as you could get.

 

[ant555]

Good post by ant and others, but some things still remain:

Not all the players were bad today, but some were made to look bad by sticking to the gameplan when others wern't, or by bad matchups that shouldn't have had a go.

Yes but it is not the fault of the game plan when players wont stick to it. If they went to pan B and players didnt stick to that then how can plan B work ?

There were a number of times when we would get the ball on our half-back and 70% of our team would be behind the ball, and 50% of collingwood would be in front of it. Those who were meant to kick it to leads from the half-forwards had no options, there was no run through the middle to hand-ball too, and they were forced to make bad choices.

That comes down to poor workrate. Its lazy footy becasue you wont work or position yourself to help your team mates. It is part of the non possesion time. Its all about thinking "what can i do do help the team or my team mate when i havnt got the footy."
Anyway it was not just these bad choice's that stuufed up the game on Friday.

Except for some more mature players like Rama and Welsh and such many of the players were always looking for the handpass to an inside runner as first option as they have been instructed to do that, and it has mean that their decisions have sometimes looked worse than what they actually are because they're doing what they're told instead of taking it on themself. Thi smakes them look stupid when they're actually the ones keeping to the gameplan.

Actually the first handball was not the problem anyway. Yes Knights want's them to run,handball and carry but he also expects some sort of rational decision making to be involved and there is the problem. If you make poor decisions you are not going to get plan A,B,C D or plan Z correct.
Knights said way back in the begging that the game plan was about moving the footy quickly and getting the ball into the forward line quickly. It works well when you get the two or three quick handballs hitting running players through the middle. The parts that is killing us is the fact that the run has dried up a bit and some of the handballs are missing targets causing turnovers. Then there is the poor decision making issue's. No coach in the world tells players you must keep handballing and stick to the game plan even if the reciver is under pressure. If you think that Knights has told them to handball at all cost and it doesnt matter then you are dilusional. Hell even in suburban footy where i am currently coaching we have a game plan but it has the flexability in it for players to slightly vary it and think through the issue's. Part of all game plans are to find the best option.

Johns should never have been in defence once it became obvious that he wasn't up to it. Unless you consider that Knights was "tanking" in his coaching some of the matchups were bad. Winders is not a defender but we probably didn't have many other options, but to let Medhurst run amok like he did was just bad defending. Ryder and Fletcher should have played in defence. Johns up forward. There is some good in chaging things up, but no point changing things when they're not working.

For a start Ryder was playing defence. He was on Cloke. Secondly yes the matchups where not great but the Johns match up on Pendlebury was not the one that really burnt us and it got changed once Pendlebury went onto the ball. Knights admitted he got the selection wrong but it is not a game plan issue.

Knights made too many matchup changes. How the hell are the players meant to get comfortable in their position and work together as a team when the matchups are getting changed every three seconds? Not just one or two, but matchups all over the ground. We were getting smashed and if you want to treat the game as a learning experience then let players learn. Swapping them all over the ground is disruptive and doesn't help the team structure or the players confidence. This is the thing that annoyed me the most.

Well the changes where a re____ of not having the correct balance to start with. Part of the learning curve in modern footy is to be able to come on the ground , have an impact and get off again. Now defensive rotations are not ideal but like you said we had to change things. That is a result of poor team selection rather than having anything to do with learning or setting out the game plan. That part of it you would hope the coach was learning /has learnt something.

 

[ant555]

Good Post Ant, would just like to differ on a couple of points. I don't know why people have so much faith in Lonergan, Hislop and Hocking to be our midfield saviours in winning the hard ball. Sam was showing a lot of improvement yes, but was only a bit player. Hislop has shown absolutely nothing at VFL level, if anything he's gone backwards. Hocking has played 1 game! He is slow and not overly skilful. Obviously they are young so i'm far from writing them off but i just don't know where all this faith in them comes from.

I did not say that Lonergan,Hislop and Hocking where going to be our saviors but during pre season and the first few rounds Hocking or Lonergan played an important part of our team structure. They both provided a few of the little blocks and some run that we needed. They are not star players but they do the work that we really miss in the middle. The small thing that keeps things together. They work in well with McVeigh who has been close to the biggest loss. When i am talking about these young blokes i am talking about the different type of player they are and what we need.
And on Hocking no he has not got silky smooth skills but to say he is not skillfull is simply wrong. He played around 20 games in the TAC Cup with an Eff% rating in the 90's. In his first year of TAC Cup he had one clanger for the season. In the VFL his disposal eff has been around 85% and last year he had 4 turnovers for the season. He may drop a few kicks short which is a fault in his game but he very rarely turns he footy over.

Talking about a plan B, i agree to keep trying with our game plan but we don't seem to have any other options when it isn't working. We simply must have another option

Ok what is the other option ? If we won't work hard enough to make plan A happen what do we do ? How do we expect plan B,C or D to work if plan A is falling down becasue of poor workrate and skill error's ?

You are completely correct in saying that having Davey, Jetta and Dempsey out hurts us, and the style we want to play. If you don't have the cattle on the ground to execute the game plan shouldn't we have another option?

Like i have already said , where do you go ? Do you try and play a style that is well removed from where you wan't to go in the future ? And what will that style be ? We have been useless at flooding for years so we can't go there. Our workrate has fallen over and killed plan A so please do tell me how plan B is going to magically fix skill error , poor workrate or bad decision making.

It is frustrating to see our on ballers first option is to look sideways for a handball when they are clear and our forwards are on the move. We are inventing handballs that aren't there nor required instead of moving the ball long and quickly to give our forwards a one on one chance[/

And this is not the game plan problem it is poor exicution of the game plan. It is about players not having the decison making process correct and evaluating on the run what the best option is. All game plans revolve around choosing the best option. You are right in saying our midfielders are manufacturing too many handballs but it is becasue they are either inexpereinced or are not good decision makers. The game plan is not so unflexable that is says you simply have to handball 4 times before you kick. It is about moving the footy quickly by hand or foot. They don't sit around in team meatings and get told you must handball through the middle even if players are under pressure.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

You see Rioli running around playing the same role as Lovett , Jetta or Davey play. Very clasy player Rioli but how many players of the same mould do you put in one side ?
And what position do we have to find Myers ? He plays half back/wing/midfield so like a lot of other players he can be used in the midfield roatations or across half back. ____ me he has played a couple of NAB Cup games and a couple of VFL games and he is already written off. Talk about going off early

I'm not writing Myers off.

What I'm saying is you need to look at Rioli's skill in traffic, how clean he is with his hands and how smart he is.

That is the one glaring area we lack. I don't think he's anything like Davey, Lovett or Jetta except the aborigine part.

No doubt in my mind that he'll be a gun midfielder, great in the centre and great in traffic within 3 years once he gets his fitness up. Not sure if Myers has that type of skill. I've seen both in a number of games and there's a pretty big gap in skill between them. No doubt that Rioli is a better player and will forge a better career.

Myers could still be a gun though but Rioli is going to be an absolute superstar.

He's this years Selwood but he'll play more forward for them for the next few years.

 

[Kit146]

There is no doubt that Knight's will learn from his mistakes just like the other coaches do

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

Rhys Palmer = Possible Future Freo Captain and B&F.

David Myers = ????

I know who i'd pick at the moment....

Don't worry about Palmer.. Cyril Rioli is the one we probably should have nabbed.

But it's a little unfair on David Myers to judge him before he plays a few games at AFL level.

 

[Kit146]

It is too early to judge Myers over Palmer when Myers hasn't even played a senior game. Give him time and maybe this decision will have payed off in the coming seasons.

 

[Smyth94]

Don't worry about Palmer.. Cyril Rioli is the one we probably should have nabbed.

But it's a little unfair on David Myers to judge him before he plays a few games at AFL level.

Really? How many of his type do we already have in our team? Davey & Jetta, the latter being every bit as good as Rioli.

I saw most of the Bendigo game yesterday, Myers was relatively quiet but when he gets the ball he almost always chooses the right option and moves brilliantly through heavy traffic - he's got a Hird like side step

 

[All Things Essendon]

As previously suggested Knights needs time to develop his tactical nous at the highest level. Similiarly, injuries & a smaller playing list have made his job that much harder.

Of course, he doesn't help his (or the team's cause) by putting players in unfamiliar positions. He not only exposed their deficiencies but embarrassed them in the process ... not a good way to develop a strong relationship with your players ... but he'll learn from it & the players will give him some leeway

The bottom line is Essendon are developing their list for the future (they appear to have an exciting collection of kids) but it's going to take a few years before they can rise to a position of strength once again.

My only gripe with the club at the moment is they've taken far too long to come to the realisation that they're not good enough & have 'wasted' a couple of years of development in the process.

 

[HULK HOGAN]

It is too early to judge Myers over Palmer when Myers hasn't even played a senior game. Give him time and maybe this decision will have payed off in the coming seasons.

Some excellant posts on this thread, but at the end of the day Myers must come into the side now! Jetta, Dempsey and Gumbleton must ALL play and mature. Get Welsh right playing and in the backline on players such as Medhurst, then look at bringing in MARK MCVEIGH AND SCOTT LUCAS and things are not so bad also Lonegran was developing well. Trade off Johns plus two others for a strong running midfielder in the mould of JJ and also go flat out after Prismall for 09

 

[Smyth94]

No coach in the world tells players you must keep handballing and stick to the game plan even if the reciver is under pressure. If you think that Knights has told them to handball at all cost and it doesnt matter then you are dilusional.

This bit here - its the thing I hate most about our players this season - their obsession to handball to a teammate who is under pressure or not in the best position.

Basically put - taking the wrong option. It looks as if we're trying to run the ball to the edge of our F50 for a shot on goal or a deep pass, all this being started from half-back but whilst its good in theory, it won't present itself too many times in the game and our players have to realise that we need to hit up targets in the middle of the ground.

 

[HULK HOGAN]

This bit here - its the thing I hate most about our players this season - their obsession to handball to a teammate who is under pressure or not in the best position.

Basically put - taking the wrong option. It looks as if we're trying to run the ball to the edge of our F50 for a shot on goal or a deep pass, all this being started from half-back but whilst its good in theory, it won't present itself too many times in the game and our players have to realise that we need to hit up targets in the middle of the ground.

It would be ok if we had a chf to kick to that leads up the corridor.
Also forgot to mention hislop and daniher in my last post.

 

[Smyth94]

It would be ok if we had a chf to kick to that leads up the corridor.
Also forgot to mention hislop and daniher in my last post.

Why can't McPhee do that, at the very least he will create a contest FFS, heaven forbid he's a pretty good mark too.

Basically our team has zero confidence in McPhee or McPhee is too dumb to lead through the corridor higher up the ground.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

Really? How many of his type do we already have in our team? Davey & Jetta, the latter being every bit as good as Rioli.

I saw most of the Bendigo game yesterday, Myers was relatively quiet but when he gets the ball he almost always chooses the right option and moves brilliantly through heavy traffic - he's got a Hird like side step

Rioli is a much more rounded player than both and will easily slot into a midfield rotation.

The similar types is a furfy. If Rioli was white everyone would have a different opinion.

 

[Smyth94]

Rioli is a much more rounded player than both and will easily slot into a midfield rotation.

The similar types is a furfy. If Rioli was white everyone would have a different opinion.

I don't think so - what has he got that Jetta doesn't?

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

I don't think so - what has he got that Jetta doesn't?

He's already getting it 15 times a game and he's only played 6 times. He knows how to get the pill. The scary thing is he knows exactly what to do with it.

Jetta looks almost as good skill wise but Rioli is already a ball magnet and his work in traffic and ability to sidestep is remarkable.

Rioli averages more possies, marks and goals then Jetta.

I rate Jetta highly and think he can become a gun but Cyril has already shown he's going to be the better player.

 

[Sigmund]

I'm not writing Myers off.

What I'm saying is you need to look at Rioli's skill in traffic, how clean he is with his hands and how smart he is.

That is the one glaring area we lack. I don't think he's anything like Davey, Lovett or Jetta except the aborigine part.

No doubt in my mind that he'll be a gun midfielder, great in the centre and great in traffic within 3 years once he gets his fitness up. Not sure if Myers has that type of skill. I've seen both in a number of games and there's a pretty big gap in skill between them. No doubt that Rioli is a better player and will forge a better career.

Myers could still be a gun though but Rioli is going to be an absolute superstar.

He's this years Selwood but he'll play more forward for them for the next few years.

KS - enjoy your posts but there is no legitimate way that this can be an informed opinion. We have not seen him play at AFL level yet. We can not possibly form a judgement on him based on any solid facts becasue the fact is that there are no facts, at least as far as elite footy goes. Rioli could well be a superstar, but there are many players (not just indigenous) who have promised much early days and delivered little. I just wonder if he would be starring like he is if he was playing at Melbourne, or even the bombers. Also, it was noted that Rioli strenght is his ability to move in and out of traffic. From what I have seen of Myers, this appears to be his great strength also.

 

[Schopp]

Agree with Kelvin_Sheedy and thanks to ANT555 for a more indepth analysis of things. It seems we have tried in the past few yrs to recruit guys who appear to have special characteristics (like running 20m in 2.8s) rather than going for the more solid footballers. I look at Adelaide and although they don't appear to have many superstar freaks like say Hawthorn does, the guys they recruit have good skills, reasonable pace, run the other way and go for the ball, they are mostly relatively intelligent footballers and hence are competitive. They are an example of a team who hasn't had high picks in the draft, yet have have recruited all rounders that allow them to execute a methodical well drilled game plan and hence become competitive.

We have recruited guys with pace pace pace, who can jump over buildings since 02 and hoping they can pick up some of the finer subtle parts of reading the play and being part of a cohesive flowing unit. Many of us have been talking for years about the lack of quality personnel picked up in the 99 - 01 period, however 02 - 04 (where we had the great hopes in Laycock, Bradley, Stanton, Monfries, Dyson) are becoming very similar making it almost 6 yrs where average recruiting has taken place, hence our total lack of depth now that we have been stung by injuries.

We can't afford to have people like Dyson and Laycock who choose when to go because we are straight away 2 down in the contest. Fire in the belly is not something that can be cultivated easily. I look at last yrs draft and guys like Hooker, John Williams, once again tall athletic types but are they slightly more experiment again when say a McGinnity was available? look at the 04 draft where we drafted Andrew Lee with our 2nd rounder despite he apparently being almost invisible that yr and Geelong pick up a reasonable solid footballer rather than a fantasy in Primsall one pick after who would slot nicely into our team atm. We aren't in a position where we can be experimental.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

^^^ Well said Schopp.

I forgot about McGinnity... after watching him in the champs I can't believe we didn't grab him with a late pick or in the pre season draft.

 

[dapto]

Agreee with KS and to say that schopp laid down some good stuff

Good post Ant,

If our players cannot play to the game plan the coach wants then the players have a problem, then if the coach cannot see that his players cannot play to his game plan then the coach has a problem.

Either way we have a problem, we can all see the game plan that the coach wants but when is the time to say lets try plan B, and whats wrong with a game plan B.

This is an issue. The unrelenting call for Knights to continue ad hoc or ortherwise is a bit numbing. We are EFC not CFC and go out to win games.

We cannot effect the pure Knights style at ther moment and it is ludicious to think we are proudly bannering our club when the losses do not reflect our potential. It is not a criticism on Knights positive outlook but an askance for another dimenion to the game plan.

We have to have a greater defensive quotient.

Read this

.....As for Clarkson, from memory he taught the Hawks about accountability when he first took over and even took it to extremes in some games. So i'm not sure how that relates to us......

What is the big deal teaching young blokes to play attacking football?? They do it throughout most of their junior careers especially as they've been the gun players in those teams. Surely the defensive skills and knowing how to position when you don't have the ball are just as important in their first few years as it is learning about flooding, whether it be heavy flooding or just a 7-8 man defence.

what the f.. is wrong with putting this 'dimension' into our brigade.

As I said before, Accountability has always been a football skill. Why can't we adopt it? It is hardly plagerism.

 

[Sanj]

I had Palmer as my prefered first pick but geez you are going off a bit early arn't you. Round 6 and you have already decided that we stuffed last years draft.
One thing on Palmer that i was thinking about while watching Friday nights game was how badly he was spraying a lot of his kicks around. Don't get me wrong i think Rhys has been playing extremely well but his disposal eff has been around 65% or under. Given how poorly we have been using the footy it is not exactly what we are looking for ATM.

Ant, (it's me ), Myers is hardly touching the footy in the VFL level. But the other bloke is getting 25-30 touches in the AFL level playing in the midfield. Wouldn't you take that right at this moment? (Not talking about 3 years down the track).

Was anyone thinking of D.Rich during the 3rd quarter against the Pies? I was ...so called No.2 Pick. Say we had the No.2 pick in this year's draft, I will have a nervous break down. I can assure you, we'll pick a tall, like Hurley and pass on Rich).

Anyways, everyone had a shocker this week. Seniors and reserves and both coaches. Lets just forget about this week and erase it from our memories.

Port at home, we should be able to win. But I remember getting a couple of hiding from them recently at the dome, in the last few years. So I am not confident.

 

[lamaros]

Ant, (it's me ), Myers is hardly touching the footy in the VFL level. But the other bloke is getting 25-30 touches in the AFL level playing in the midfield. Wouldn't you take that right at this moment? (Not talking about 3 years down the track).

You watch half a game at VFL and all of a sudden you think you know what you're talking about?

 

[Ben the Gooner]

Ok I'll wind back my natural tone a bit because I AM on your board but what a load of bullshit.

Knights is doing everything right. Do you think he is coaching to win games or to develop the team?

Ask yourselves that those who are criticising him???

Clarkson coached for the future and lookey now. Do you think it is a coincidence we are now a powerhouse.

His gameplan is in phase 1 just like ours was when we got beaten week after week.

Phase 1 equals create a running and attacking game and see which players can adapt.

THOSE THAT CAN'T WILL BE DELISTED.

Those that can will stay on and slowly start forming the nucleus of his vision.

Give him time guys. Most other coaches do not have the foresight that this guy is showing and I really hope smart Bombers can see this.

I was a lone ranger on my board saying the same things about Clarkson. Now Clarko is the hero to all.

This guy has the right stuff to do the same thing.

A bloody Hawthorn supporter, Hawthorn ffs, is the only voice of reason (besides ant555 who goes without saying), in this thread. H2F and ant, they were some brilliant posts.

Agree with Kelvin_Sheedy and thanks to ANT555 for a more indepth analysis of things. It seems we have tried in the past few yrs to recruit guys who appear to have special characteristics (like running 20m in 2.8s) rather than going for the more solid footballers. I look at Adelaide and although they don't appear to have many superstar freaks like say Hawthorn does, the guys they recruit have good skills, reasonable pace, run the other way and go for the ball, they are mostly relatively intelligent footballers and hence are competitive. They are an example of a team who hasn't had high picks in the draft, yet have have recruited all rounders that allow them to execute a methodical well drilled game plan and hence become competitive.

We have recruited guys with pace pace pace, who can jump over buildings since 02 and hoping they can pick up some of the finer subtle parts of reading the play and being part of a cohesive flowing unit. Many of us have been talking for years about the lack of quality personnel picked up in the 99 - 01 period, however 02 - 04 (where we had the great hopes in Laycock, Bradley, Stanton, Monfries, Dyson) are becoming very similar making it almost 6 yrs where average recruiting has taken place, hence our total lack of depth now that we have been stung by injuries.

We can't afford to have people like Dyson and Laycock who choose when to go because we are straight away 2 down in the contest. Fire in the belly is not something that can be cultivated easily. I look at last yrs draft and guys like Hooker, John Williams, once again tall athletic types but are they slightly more experiment again when say a McGinnity was available? look at the 04 draft where we drafted Andrew Lee with our 2nd rounder despite he apparently being almost invisible that yr and Geelong pick up a reasonable solid footballer rather than a fantasy in Primsall one pick after who would slot nicely into our team atm. We aren't in a position where we can be experimental.

Drafting is an inexact science. When picking players like Hooker and Lee, it is going to go one of two ways: either the athlete becomes a footballer and the recruiting manager is a genius and has picked a real diamond from the rough or he becomes a bust to a good ordinary player, and we "wasted a pick on him".

In Andrew Lee's draft, we picked up Gus and Slats (I think). Both, at that stage at least, looked to be footballers rather than athletes, who could do something in the midfield long term. A project player wasn't too much of a risk. If we picked up a good ordinary like Prismall, it would have been too conservative. Some of the project players become superstars, some bust.

It's the same with Hooker. In his draft we picked up three footballers before him, all of whom could fill long term holes in the team. We have no idea what Hooker will become, but I'd rather we take a punt on a player like him than pick up a plodder who won't be anything much in the future.

If we keep picking tall, fast, fit and strong players, we'll eventually hit a Lance Franklin or a Paddy Ryder. I'd rather one Ryder or Franklin than four or five plodders.

 

[fatgutz]

piss off peter jackson he is not letting Knights do what he likes! Johns and Laycock to to piss off` we are shit this year boys and girls! and no depth in Bendigo either!