3 reasons why we're down in 2011

[GotTheGoodes]

Stepping into a half finsihed side (i.e. Roos' developing list) wasn't going ot be easy. Add to that Bradshaw, Boltz and the other injuries I think he at the very least deserves to be cut some slack this year. I'd liek to see the coaches give Jesse a bit more of a go (as they have this week) and try to push for a set fwd line up. Stop moving blokes all over the place and just settle it down a touch. Give everyone a role and assess them on that. Simple.

 

[SM]

Its all very well,putting Horses head up for the axe. But no one has taken a swipe at the assistant coaches. Arent these guys supposed to advise
Horse! He is either not listening,or they are feeding him shit.(unintended
pun!)

Can't be serious. Leader takes responsibility. Sure, instead of blaming the Prime Minister for problems in Australia lets blame everyone EXCEPT her, because they're meant to be advising her! She's the Prime Minister for a reason, as Horse is coach 'for a reason', he's meant to know best!

 

[disgruntled goat]

And? A coach's job comes down to list-building and tactics. None of those problems are tactical (though one could argue that our gameplan hasn't been great either), and he hasn't had time to build a list as he'd like it.

It takes more than a year to shape a team as a coach would like it. There's every chance that in two years the Swans will be a force and we'll be praising the ground Horse trots on.

Similarly, there's every chance you'll be as fed up as the rest of us by about Round 5 next season and maybe Longmire is looking for a new job sometime soon after that.

If a player continues to make stupid skill errors, it IS the coach's job to recognise it and either say or do something about it, or not pick the player. Or does that not fit your criteria for coaching?

 

[disgruntled goat]

haha, that thread was amusing. It was probably the same people as well. It's just the nature of a whinger to whinge.

This makes me think you're referring to me, as you did in one of those threads last year. At NO STAGE did I call for Roos' head, last year or at any time. I want you to be clear on that so I can feel satisfactorily excluded from glib remarks such as that one.

I take it you've never whinged ...

 

[BarneyBent]

Similarly, there's every chance you'll be as fed up as the rest of us by about Round 5 next season and maybe Longmire is looking for a new job sometime soon after that.

Absolutely. Notice that I'm not making any outlandish statements one way or the other though? I'm far from convinced by Horse, but it's absolutely ridiculous to write him off yet or blame him for things he has had no time to address.

If a player continues to make stupid skill errors, it IS the coach's job to recognise it and either say or do something about it, or not pick the player. Or does that not fit your criteria for coaching?

Yeah, and he's done that with Malceski, Kennelly, White and others. The only player he has persisted with unfairly this year is Jetta, and I bet if Rohan had been fit he wouldn't have. And when the entire team is making skill errors, you can't just drop them for the reserves now, can you?

 

[DeadlyAkkuret]

Yeah, because Horse is the reason our players can't handpass or kick, or that there isn't a capable full forward on our list.

Not that I'm for or against Longmire (I'm not sure yet), but the coach is praised when his team is winning, so it's only natural/fair that he cop it when his team is losing.

 

[AG]

This makes me think you're referring to me, as you did in one of those threads last year. At NO STAGE did I call for Roos' head, last year or at any time. I want you to be clear on that so I can feel satisfactorily excluded from glib remarks such as that one.

I take it you've never whinged ...

Not you at all. You were defending Roos last year from memory. Stat, you didn't even post in the thread last year, so it's not you either. I didn't have anyone in my mind when I made that statement. It's just that this board seems confused as to what it actually wants out of this football club at the moment. Remain a decent team while we rebuild or bottom 4 team to go a full blown rebuild. Fact is we are rebuilding, those who expect us to be a near certainty for a top 4 spot while that happens need to be more realistic.

I don't think I've whinged much about the Swans. I have no control over how they perform and in the end I'm just watching other people live their lives. I don't see much of a reason to whinge, just appreciate the good times and move on from the bad times. The good greatly outweighs the bad since I've been following (all the younger Swans supporters are lucky in that regard and some might not appreciate it unless we do become a wooden spooner), so the Swans have enough credit in the bank to afford a few dud seasons.

 

[swansfan51]

Stepping into a half finsihed side (i.e. Roos' developing list) wasn't going ot be easy. Add to that Bradshaw, Boltz and the other injuries I think he at the very least deserves to be cut some slack this year.

He shouldn't be judged on the list he has, he should be judged on the decisions he makes with the players that are at his disposal. And he has been poor.

 

[disgruntled goat]

Not you at all. You were defending Roos last year from memory. Stat, you didn't even post in the thread last year, so it's not you either. I didn't have anyone in my mind when I made that statement. It's just that this board seems confused as to what it actually wants out of this football club at the moment. Remain a decent team while we rebuild or bottom 4 team to go a full blown rebuild. Fact is we are rebuilding, those who expect us to be a near certainty for a top 4 spot while that happens need to be more realistic.

I don't think I've whinged much about the Swans. I have no control over how they perform and in the end I'm just watching other people live their lives. I don't see much of a reason to whinge, just appreciate the good times and move on from the bad times. The good greatly outweighs the bad since I've been following (all the younger Swans supporters are lucky in that regard and some might not appreciate it unless we do become a wooden spooner), so the Swans have enough credit in the bank to afford a few dud seasons.

As I've said many times, I can live with "dud seasons" and defeat, but the sense of aimlessness and treading water under Longmire, and the return to go-nowhere crappy football, has been extremely disappointing.

Once again, I ask everyone to go back to last September, when we finished a very encouraging fifth with a promising list and playing some very attractive football ... and compare to what's happened since then, where our list development is, and the "style" of footy we're playing.

It's an alarming difference, and as Mike Sheahan wrote the other day, we give the impression of a leaderless team going nowhere.

 

[AG]

I would have thought our list development has improved a hell of a lot? Reid, Johnson, Bird, Parker, etc. have all kicked on or put themselves in the frame as being part of a potential premiership team down the track. Treading water is fine while rebuilding imo.

 

[disgruntled goat]

I would have thought our list development has improved a hell of a lot? Reid, Johnson, Bird, Parker, etc. have all kicked on or put themselves in the frame as being part of a potential premiership team down the track. Treading water is fine while rebuilding imo.

I can't agree; I think particularly Parker of those you mentioned could have been handled much better by the coach, certainly in the past few weeks.

But what about Lewis Johnston, or several others still awaiting a chance at senior football (Dan Currie, for starters)? Or Jesse White? White's done himself no favours, but he must be wondering about the direction he's been taking from the coach ... is he a forward? A back-up ruck? What's his role in the twos compared with his role when he plays seniors? Why was her persisted with in so many wet SCG games?

I know there have been injuries to several younger blokes, but how many 2011 reserves players would be looking at Lewis Jetta and wondering why they're not afforded the same chances/excuses.

From my viewpoint, as a team, we've gone backwards and will be starting from scratch next season. We will most likely finish this season in disarray and with no direction.

Certain players, individually, have improved and taken chances they've been given but, on the whole, I think we're worse off, and that is not treading water.

 

[SM]

Not you at all. You were defending Roos last year from memory. Stat, you didn't even post in the thread last year, so it's not you either. I didn't have anyone in my mind when I made that statement. It's just that this board seems confused as to what it actually wants out of this football club at the moment. Remain a decent team while we rebuild or bottom 4 team to go a full blown rebuild. Fact is we are rebuilding, those who expect us to be a near certainty for a top 4 spot while that happens need to be more realistic.

I don't think I've whinged much about the Swans. I have no control over how they perform and in the end I'm just watching other people live their lives. I don't see much of a reason to whinge, just appreciate the good times and move on from the bad times. The good greatly outweighs the bad since I've been following (all the younger Swans supporters are lucky in that regard and some might not appreciate it unless we do become a wooden spooner), so the Swans have enough credit in the bank to afford a few dud seasons.

Because we as supporters can make change if we murmur loud enough. Heck that's essentially how Roos was appointed back in 02.

Longmire has demonstrated time and time again that as a coach he lacks the nous to be successful.

We really need to make a strong play for Malthouse in 2013 to push for a flag as our younger players come into their prime.

 

[SM]

I would have thought our list development has improved a hell of a lot? Reid, Johnson, Bird, Parker, etc. have all kicked on or put themselves in the frame as being part of a potential premiership team down the track. Treading water is fine while rebuilding imo.

Nope, we've been terrible. Have a look at clubs like West Coast, Carlton, Essendon, etc. who have, for the most part, gone past us this year. The only youngsters I feel have been given proper recognition is Reid and Johnson. Guys like Parker, Johnston, White, and Heath have been completely or partially disregarded, despite prior form, or form in the Reserves. These guys could very well form the core of our team going forward, and have shown at one point or another form in the Firsts, or potential to play well in the Firsts if given a set position in which to find their feet. Obviously LJ and White are going for basically the same spot in the team, but NEITHER is in the team. As DG pointed out, White has at no point this year been told to go to FF and stay there for the duration of the game. LJ came in for one game and was straight back out, and later came back in defense. Parker has constantly been the sub and is in and out of the team through no fault of his own while Jetta gets a free run. Heath after a promising couple of games last year hasn't even had a look in.

It's no coincidence that the teams who put promising youngsters in the team and let them develop - Essendon with Heppell, Hurley, Carlisle, etc. West Coast with Shuey, Smith, Kennedy, etc. and Carlton with Gibbs, Murphy, Robinson, Garlett etc. - have all gone past us as the young cores have developed together with more mature bodies around them - not so in Carlton or Essendon, and as such they've taken longer, but West Coast has shown exactly what we COULD have done, but haven't.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

It's funny you know all of a sudden Malthouse is a deity who at the end of 09 Pie supporters wanted him sacked for employing a kick to the boundary line style gameplan making poor coaching selections and given the fact he had been there for almost 10yrs with unlimited funds and best resources with zero flag to show for it.

Thats how the Buckley succession play came into effect Eddie believed Mick could not deliver a flag.

Give Longmire time to build with the group we have, we might have a few more retirements and list changes at years end. Reserve proper judgement at least untill this point of time next year.

 

[SM]

It's funny you know all of a sudden Malthouse is a deity who at the end of 09 Pie supporters wanted him sacked for employing a kick to the boundary line style gameplan making poor coaching selections and given the fact he had been there for almost 10yrs with unlimited funds and best resources with zero flag to show for it.

Thats how the Buckley succession play came into effect Eddie believed Mick could not deliver a flag.

Give Longmire time to build with the group we have, we might have a few more retirements and list changes at years end. Reserve proper judgement at least untill this point of time next year.

Longmire's problems aren't primarily list related, they're related to the fact he is a terrible game day coach, terrible at making selection decisions, and terrible at creating a working game plan and team structure.

Malthouse had his issues at the Pies but was always able to field a competitive unit and had reached the top 4 in 08 and 09 before winning the flag in 10, not to mention the 02 and 03 GFs, and the 92 and 94 flags with the Eagles.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

Longmire's problems aren't primarily list related, they're related to the fact he is a terrible game day coach, terrible at making selection decisions, and terrible at creating a working game plan and team structure.

Malthouse had his issues at the Pies but was always able to field a competitive unit and had reached the top 4 in 08 and 09 before winning the flag in 10, not to mention the 02 and 03 GFs, and the 92 and 94 flags with the Eagles.

Fair enough the only real issue i have with Horse is his use of the sub which at times is awful/pointless besides that i dont think he has done such a bad job with the cattle we have out there atm.

Be honest given that Malthouse wont leave Melbourne who would you want to coach us next season then?

 

[SM]

Fair enough the only real issue i have with Horse is his use of the sub which at times is awful/pointless besides that i dont think he has done such a bad job with the cattle we have out there atm.

Be honest given that Malthouse wont leave Melbourne who would you want to coach us next season then?

Henry Playfair. Look at the wonders he's done with our reserves. And I'm being deadly serious. I'd rather Playfair to Horse.

However, I'd really like us to take someone from outside the club, who's had some experience from other clubs.

I'll throw a name out for people to consider:

He's an ex-Swan superstar, only been out of the game a few years so would have some fresh ideas straight from the game as it's played now. He's now been coaching for two years in the same sort of Apprenticeship as Voss had, though I think he would end up being a much better coach.

The man I speak of of course is Michael O'Loughlin.

Thoughts?

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

Henry Playfair. Look at the wonders he's done with our reserves. And I'm being deadly serious. I'd rather Playfair to Horse.

However, I'd really like us to take someone from outside the club, who's had some experience from other clubs.

I'll throw a name out for people to consider:

He's an ex-Swan superstar, only been out of the game a few years so would have some fresh ideas straight from the game as it's played now. He's now been coaching for two years in the same sort of Apprenticeship as Voss had, though I think he would end up being a much better coach.

The man I speak of of course is Michael O'Loughlin.

Thoughts?

Not gonna argue with any of those selections mate you probably know more about the situation than i do.

In your opinion what is the deadline on Horse or how long is his contract?

 

[SM]

I know shit all but I'm a cranky bugger.

I honestly think that if nothing changes next season, and if in fact we miss the finals, then Horse should be given his marching orders. The club needs to be aggressive in pushing for a flag and if it appears we are slipping backwards under Horse then he needs to go.

I think he has a three year deal? Not sure? If someone can confirm that...

 

[AG]

I'd rather a non Swan take over if we parted ways with Longmire.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

How did we lose to Freo at home, they just got smashed by 99 against Norf.

 

[vonn]

We need to stop having such knee-jerk reactions! No coach is ever going to take the list we have to a premiership in one year. Reserve judgement until a year or two I say, it isn't as if our list is full of superstars either. Take away the bias and we really are where we should be - middle of the pack with younger, better teams surpassing us - it's an ordinary list and it is not a premiership contending list. Given that, and the fact this is a rebuilding year, let's not get too carried away from TWENTY ONE WEEKS of football.
And our list - that's got nothing to do with Horse, blame the recruiting staff, or hell, blame Roos for being too damn consistent and not getting us high-end draft picks, but I see no problem with where we are atm, yes the losses were infuriating and we should be higher, but it's the players who kick themselves out of it, not Horse.

 

[SM]

We need to stop having such knee-jerk reactions! No coach is ever going to take the list we have to a premiership in one year. Reserve judgement until a year or two I say, it isn't as if our list is full of superstars either. Take away the bias and we really are where we should be - middle of the pack with younger, better teams surpassing us - it's an ordinary list and it is not a premiership contending list. Given that, and the fact this is a rebuilding year, let's not get too carried away from TWENTY ONE WEEKS of football.
And our list - that's got nothing to do with Horse, blame the recruiting staff, or hell, blame Roos for being too damn consistent and not getting us high-end draft picks, but I see no problem with where we are atm, yes the losses were infuriating and we should be higher, but it's the players who kick themselves out of it, not Horse.

Sorry Vonn but that's just crap. We came fifth last year playing an attacking, exciting style of football, and were a kick away from playing in a PF.

The majority of last year we played without Bolton and Bradshaw, so that's a lame excuse for Longmire.

Longmire has categorically taken the club backwards, while clubs such as Carlton, West Coast, and Essendon have all gone past us. You could also argue that Freo have surpassed us if not for their crippling injury list when in comparison we've had little injuries.

We've had players such as Lewis Johnston, TDL, and Parker spending large amounts of the season in the reserves, while players such as Jetta and Kennelly have had chance after chance. Our position is not reflective of the potential of our list, as demonstrated by last year.

I'm not saying Longmire should be sacked now, because he won't be. What I am saying is that nothing will change next year. I am MORE than happy to be proven wrong, in fact I'm begging Longmire to prove me wrong, but he won't. And at the end of next year, when we don't make the Finals, we should face the facts and beging looking to find a new coach before players such as Jack, McVeigh, Malceski, and Grundy start to decline.

 

[SM]

I'd rather a non Swan take over if we parted ways with Longmire.

I'm not sure I agree. While Longmire has shown that bringing someone through your system over a long period of time to coach isn't a brilliant solution, I'm still of the opinion that someone who knows the club inside out, BUT has then received coaching experience outside the club, would be useful. MOL would bring fresh ideas to the club from his experience away.

 

[vonn]

Sorry Vonn but that's just crap. We came fifth last year playing an attacking, exciting style of football, and were a kick away from playing in a PF.

That's because our opposition was crap because they were rebuilding or injured and couldn't find cohesion. Other clubs that have overtaken us development wise are starting to pick up now, whereas last year the league barring 2 or 3 clubs were just shit. It was a weak comp. Look at the teams above us currently, they've just overtaken us development wise.
Hawthorn: yep. Carlton: yep. Essendon: maybe. WCE: yes.

That and the fact we had a major retirement in Kirk and Roos where the sentimental crap would have also played a factor.

The majority of last year we played without Bolton and Bradshaw, so that's a lame excuse for Longmire.

Longmire has categorically taken the club backwards, while clubs such as Carlton, West Coast, and Essendon have all gone past us. You could also argue that Freo have surpassed us if not for their crippling injury list when in comparison we've had little injuries.

And they spent time down the ladder as well. We're rebuilding as well, they've gone past us because they started their rebuild much earlier and they can afford to bottom out and do it the tough way. I would love to see how any of those clubs would have survived like that if they were Sydney based.
That and the fact our list is one year older and things change. I know that sounds really obvious but how different was say Malceski or McBabe one year ago? I'm not saying that age is always the factor, but form changes. It isn't as if McBabe or Mal hasn't been given opportunities either, but the exciting HB line that drove last year is just not working.

Malceski - Injured/Not replicating last years form
Kennelly - Not replicating last years form - age related perhaps?

The other thing is, look at our goal kicking. Bad kicking is bad football, but if we had kicked truly, we would be about 5th or so right now and no one would have any problems.

We've had players such as Lewis Johnston, TDL, and Parker spending large amounts of the season in the reserves, while players such as Jetta and Kennelly have had chance after chance. Our position is not reflective of the potential of our list, as demonstrated by last year.

LJ and TDL have been injured and need to find form in the reserves, whereas guys like Parker - the tough inside mids - we have heaps of. It's not as if LJ or TDL are direct replacements for Jetta or Kennelly either.

I'm not saying Longmire should be sacked now, because he won't be. What I am saying is that nothing will change next year. I am MORE than happy to be proven wrong, in fact I'm begging Longmire to prove me wrong, but he won't. And at the end of next year, when we don't make the Finals, we should face the facts and beging looking to find a new coach before players such as Jack, McVeigh, Malceski, and Grundy start to decline.

You don't know any of that for sure.