ASADA relied on 'vague' accounts - The Australian 27/12/13

[theflea]

This I can't accept - Especially if health and welfare is an issue.

Ha well I guess they(WADA and everyone who signs up for it) agree to accept it whether we like it or not!!

 

[theflea]

To achieve approval from most regulatory health authorities, you have to jump through some pretty big hoops - mainly because the government itself will be liable if it achieves safety ratings and then goes on to maim/kill a heap of people. From a pharma/inventors perspective, about a billion dollars is spent to bring just ONE commercial product completely to market. You don't spend that type of money on something that a) won't be safe, or b) doesn't do what you claim it does. I think it is a bare minimum, but knowing the hoops required to achieve medicinal/human therapeutic status, I'd be reasonably confident that the drug is safe IF used in the intended manner/dosage/recommended administration.

The problem I have with any of this, is the off-label use of products - which Dank appears to have done. Once you use something off-label, you more or less forfeit the safety guarantees. Once you combine it with something else... just asking for trouble.

I would also imagine that you want the trials to be fully tested as a company would want to be able to ship said substance to all markets to maximise revenue and to not exclude/minimise it.

 

[theflea]

It wasn't in Connelly's one either with the Melbourne tanking fiasco, but when asked the following day whether he could still be paid, the AFL clarified that no he couldn't be paid by Melbourne (although went on to say a coterie group could still pay him if they wanted to).

Yes but this still doesn't answer why it was or wasn't. There doesn't seem to be any common or consistent application of this and I don't believe for a second that the afl merely forgot to include this clause. There must be a reason.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Those legal technicalities tend to be an onion in the ointment though. If the judge handed them over and has no authority to or it isn't standard procedure to do so, an appeal form the owners of that blood would be filed in seconds and probably win. She would have to have solid grounds to do so. Its criminal evidence and those who can access that legally are few.

Nah the court system doesnt work that quick. And who would file the appeals?? All of Fuentes' non cycling clients who so far have been protected and then those clients will be named in the appeal documents and a bit more of the truth comes out as soon as any appeals are lodged.

 

[yaco55]

No, then the argument that they are over stepping their role and playing doctor as well as anti doping holds water. They are merely making it an offence for people to use drugs, under their code that people shouldn't be using anyway because of laws in their country alone.
They obviously realised how easy it to use these drugs without punishment within countries and it was being taken advantage of so they have found a way to try and eliminate their use while not being anymore over bearing than local laws are anyway.

So then you dont have a level playing - The Eastern Bloc would have loved this - Found a hot substance, pushed it through for regulatory approval - Let's count those Gold Medals.

 

[yaco55]

To achieve approval from most regulatory health authorities, you have to jump through some pretty big hoops - mainly because the government itself will be liable if it achieves safety ratings and then goes on to maim/kill a heap of people. From a pharma/inventors perspective, about a billion dollars is spent to bring just ONE commercial product completely to market. You don't spend that type of money on something that a) won't be safe, or b) doesn't do what you claim it does. I think it is a bare minimum, but knowing the hoops required to achieve medicinal/human therapeutic status, I'd be reasonably confident that the drug is safe IF used in the intended manner/dosage/recommended administration.

The problem I have with any of this, is the off-label use of products - which Dank appears to have done. Once you use something off-label, you more or less forfeit the safety guarantees. Once you combine it with something else... just asking for trouble.

Any chance that the regulatory approvals could be pushed along - Think of the Easten Bloc in the 70's/80's and 90's.

 

[BigJoeD_]

If it was then I stand corrected. Then the issue is interesting. I assumed that it wasn't in the Hird decision because it may be a restraint of trade however that would also apply to the crow gents. Is it a case that while it may be a ROT it still has to be tabled in court in which the participants didn't do? There must be a reason as to why in wasn't in the Hird deed. It cant be that they(the lawyers) forgot it.

My assessment is that Hird was always going to be paid - it was part of the negotiation.

He was the one spoiling for this to go to court - not the AFL or EFC. He needed a sweetener to be convinced - even then, you could see he didn't want to cut the deal.

IMO Vlad was kept out of the loop when the big boys thrashed out the deal.

Vlad simply didn't know, hence he put his foot in it on radio.

 

[Cronos]

You must feel bad in this forum - I continually read that EFC/Hird are gutless for not taking the AFL to court.

I feel bad for people too blinded by Hird to see what he's done to your once grand club.

Most of the comments about EFC/Hird not taking the AFL to court are people pointing out just how quickly their loud sabre rattling turned to nothing and rolling over for the AFL's punishments.

 

[Cronos]

Well if WADA who is supposed to run an anti-doping code to keep illegal drugs out of sport, as well as stopping athletes taking substances that don't have theraupetic approval, are willing to accept a substance as safe because it has approval from a third world country, then I wonder if they are filling their charter.

And this is not considering that if the substance is approved in one country as an example, then an athlete not from that country, can't legally access that substance. So much for an even playing field.

WADA have zero interest in keeping illegal drugs out of sport.

WADA's interest remains keeping prohibited drugs out of sport. Have you been studying at the Little school of legal terms?

 

[Cronos]

This I can't accept - Especially if health and welfare is an issue.

And yet you don't have an issue with your club using substances that didn't even reach that bar...

 

[jenny61_99]

Yes but this still doesn't answer why it was or wasn't. There doesn't seem to be any common or consistent application of this and I don't believe for a second that the afl merely forgot to include this clause. There must be a reason.

I am of the opinion that Trigg and Harper were suspended as a precedent to be set for the Melbourne case, where any Club based penalties would bring it to its knees. The AFL knew the Melbourne tanking case was coming up, they could see a way to issue reasonably harsh penalties without further crippling the Club, so they suspended Connelly, Bailey (Adelaide got hit AGAIN!) and one other?? I think we are all baffled by the Melbourne non-tanking but suspensions anyways situation. Then we are faced with this debacle at Essendon. The Club is financially healthy so they can take a big whack. And of course Hird could be suspended for 12 months and still come back to the job (precedent set with Trigg and Harper). I'm sure the AFL intended for him to be suspended without pay... unless they had privately agreed that he would get paid, but it would be kept quiet. IMO, this last 12 months has been appalling for the Fat Controller and his merry men. I certainly don't believe a word they say either!

 

[The Dodger]

Nah the court system doesnt work that quick. And who would file the appeals?? All of Fuentes' non cycling clients who so far have been protected and then those clients will be named in the appeal documents and a bit more of the truth comes out as soon as any appeals are lodged.

Not saying the appeal would have won that quickly only that it would have been lodged quickly and as long as the appeal is there you cant hand them over. It would have a high chance of winning if the judge did something unconstitutional and/or unusual.

I honestly don't think names are the issue...evidence is. A doctor saying "I doped this guy" isn't enough for a charge surely? They need some proof like names attached to bags.

Courts follow protocol, they cant change the rules as they see fit as it would be likely to fail on appeal.

You and I know something is dodgy with that case but I have seen that case used to say WADA have no strength and that the Spanish authorities are definitely corrupt. While that may be the case the reporting make it sound like the destruction of the blood bags is definitely happening because the judge is a crook and that WADA not getting their way is a blow for anti-doping. Neither is the case, she may be dodgy but she is following protocol and WADA are asking for access to criminal evidence that they have no right over, not gonna happen. It was a hail mary approach and unlikely to succeed IMO.

 

[jenny61_99]

Any chance that the regulatory approvals could be pushed along - Think of the Easten Bloc in the 70's/80's and 90's.

Different world back then and no WADA (until Nov 1999).

 

[The Dodger]

So then you dont have a level playing - The Eastern Bloc would have loved this - Found a hot substance, pushed it through for regulatory approval - Let's count those Gold Medals.

If its approved in an eastern block country then anyone can use it. As I was saying they are not trying to even go as far as the law hence not over reaching.
Level playing field.

The prescribing doctor might face trouble from your local authorities if its not approved in your country but no problem with WADA.

 

[jenny61_99]

So then you dont have a level playing - The Eastern Bloc would have loved this - Found a hot substance, pushed it through for regulatory approval - Let's count those Gold Medals.

Clause S0 has only existed for the last couple of years - thanks to the explosion of these boutique peptides that are proliferating the market.

 

[TerryWallet]

Or Corcoran's deed.

Corcoran must be loving this - I suggest that he was the key driver of the substance program.

Yep. Corcoran has been a mentor to Hird for a long time. Being a true believer was one of the things Danny mentored young Jim in.

Corc, the ex athletics man, was also Footy Director at Melbourne in the year Woewodin found his way to Shane Charter.

 

[Chameleon75]

Those legal technicalities tend to be an onion in the ointment though. If the judge handed them over and has no authority to or it isn't standard procedure to do so, an appeal form the owners of that blood would be filed in seconds and probably win. She would have to have solid grounds to do so. Its criminal evidence and those who can access that legally are few.

Fine line between vigilance and infringing on civil liberties.

 

[The Dodger]

Fine line between vigilance and infringing on civil liberties.

I find it goes hand in hand with what you often mention with blackcat about the anger once someone pulls the wool off from over our eyes. We are quite happy (and even speak as if a law is being broken) to request that all normal behaviour be put to one side in the search to catch dopers. The way that case has been reported its as though the law is being subverted in not handing over the blood bags.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Not saying the appeal would have won that quickly only that it would have been lodged quickly and as long as the appeal is there you cant hand them over. It would have a high chance of winning if the judge did something unconstitutional and/or unusual.

I honestly don't think names are the issue...evidence is. A doctor saying "I doped this guy" isn't enough for a charge surely? They need some proof like names attached to bags.

Courts follow protocol, they cant change the rules as they see fit as it would be likely to fail on appeal.

You and I know something is dodgy with that case but I have seen that case used to say WADA have no strength and that the Spanish authorities are definitely corrupt. While that may be the case the reporting make it sound like the destruction of the blood bags is definitely happening because the judge is a crook and that WADA not getting their way is a blow for anti-doping. Neither is the case, she may be dodgy but she is following protocol and WADA are asking for access to criminal evidence that they have no right over, not gonna happen. It was a hail mary approach and unlikely to succeed IMO.

No you said appeals would be lodged in seconds. That just isnt true. That would mean that all the lawyers of athletes that use Fuentes would have lawyers who had followed the court case and had prepared the appeal before a final ruling. It doesnt work that way. Remember Fuentes lawyers are different to his clients lawyers. He is threatening to name names. Your appeals time frame is unrealistic.

And talking of appeals this is a minor court ie not the highest in the land so what gives a judge the right to say evidence must be destroyed before an appeal to a highet court by the Spanish authorities who wanted access to the blood bags.

 

[Chameleon75]

I find it goes hand in hand with what you often mention with blackcat about the anger once someone pulls the wool off from over our eyes. We are quite happy (and even speak as if a law is being broken) to request that all normal behaviour be put to one side in the search to catch dopers. The way that case has been reported its as though the law is being subverted in not handing over the blood bags.

It's interesting that the whereabouts provision under the wada code has been challenged under article 8 of the European convention on human rights. Some are arguing that the vigilance is over stepping the line (not saying I disagree with the whereabouts rule).

Poses a moral dilemma, what is the greater evil someone using peds or someones human rights being breached? Depends who you talk to I guess.

 

[The Dodger]

No you said appeals would be lodged in seconds. That just isnt true. That would mean that all the lawyers of athletes that use Fuentes would have lawyers who had followed the court case and had prepared the appeal before a final ruling. It doesnt work that way. Remember Fuentes lawyers are different to his clients lawyers. He is threatening to name names. Your appeals time frame is unrealistic.

And talking of appeals this is a minor court ie not the highest in the land so what gives a judge the right to say evidence must be destroyed before an appeal to a highet court by the Spanish authorities who wanted access to the blood bags.

Ok if you are going to be pedantic with the appeals time ok then. I was just trying to say it will be lodged ASAP with the main point being if it is against usual procedure then the appeal will likely be successful. The appeal will be lodged by lawyers representing the people who had blood in those bags because surely they would know there is a chance they are going to be called to give evidence because the blood in some of the bags is theirs and would have sought legal help before the case went to court.

AFAIK the SADA/UCI has appealed that decision by the judge and I have not heard of any further developments and the blood bags wont be destroyed until that is heard. I would be surprised if it was successful and would probably require that law being passed that they keep mentioning in the articles. What gives the judge the right is procedure. What do you think they would do with 100's of blood bags that have been used in a case and completed? Store them some where, where in a case like this they could be innocent people duped by a doc? They would destroy them bar someone (who has a right to them) wanting them back. Now I am pretty sure the owners of that blood will be pretty happy for the court to destroy them.
Nobody bothers to look up what would happen in a case where blood bags are involved but they don't belong to anybody famous or that might have repercussions with a anti doping authority do they?
Why would they keep innocent parties to a criminal trial blood?

 

[yodellinhank]

Page17 for example?

Not that bit specifically. The page 17 accusation of "doping" that goes on to say it was possibly against the code (therefore possibly not) gets us no further than the fact aod is being debated.

The flow of money in connection with the sales of the supplements is what I'd be concerned about. Did dank simply try to draw people from the club further into his web, or were they actually part of the whole thing?

I'd still be surprised, and horrified, if it was the latter. But if I was a HTB foamer type, sickly hoping something untoward did happen so I could feel better about myself, that'd be the place I'd be looking at now to find it.

 

[blackcat]

I find it goes hand in hand with what you often mention with blackcat about the anger once someone pulls the wool off from over our eyes. We are quite happy (and even speak as if a law is being broken) to request that all normal behaviour be put to one side in the search to catch dopers. The way that case has been reported its as though the law is being subverted in not handing over the blood bags.

yeah, but it is not even about civil liberties and plausible deniability and 7am wake-up calls from the ASADA piss testers collectors.

its about a pure hypocrisy. the players are enabled, and sponsored to win on saturday or each olympiad. when they sacrifice to achieve performance, albeit, there is/are some significant rewards, and all the playing corps will concede, that they are allowed to take gear for performance, as long as there is no blow-back or hurt to the competition by being so egregious or failing tests. the fans want a win, and want a spectacle, and want performance.

 

[blackcat]

Im on my phone and not my computer so i am restricted what i can search but i reckon the blood bags for cyclists were examined but not the ones for other athletes.

blackcat can you confirm this one way or the other?

the Fuentes ones in MAdrid?

They basically swept aside everything on tennis players(see:Nadal) and the Real Madrid and Barca footbol teams.

They did not test the bags of the cyclists, they just gave away the codenames for cyclists, then forums/fora had a field day, trying to match the codename to the rider.

birillo was basso. birillo his dog! amigo de birillo was giovanni lombardi, his domestique and cipollini's former leadout rider.

forgot cancellara, now, remember it, supposedly classicomano was cancellara.

was quite funny, such laffs, the cycling fora i contributed to had much funs

 

[swans2014]

It's interesting that the whereabouts provision under the wada code has been challenged under article 8 of the European convention on human rights. Some are arguing that the vigilance is over stepping the line (not saying I disagree with the whereabouts rule).

Poses a moral dilemma, what is the greater evil someone using peds or someones human rights being breached? Depends who you talk to I guess.

Interesting. Are you able to give a summary of the applicant's arguments under article 8 and/or a link to the case? I've tried the ECHR database and google but can't find any cases to do with the WADA code.