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Jason Dunstall vs Tony Lockett

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Lockett and Dunstall were always so hard to split as full forwards during their careers.

One year, it was Plugger dominating and kicking 100 goals. The next year it was Dunstall doing the same and kicking even more goals.

Plugger would be out injured or suspended for 4-5 weeks, then he'd come back and boot 10 goals and drag the Saints over the line. There has never been a more awesome forward in full flight. His ability to take pack marks, kick the big goals and monster opposition defences was second to none. He was always the focal point. Teammates had to clear the area and let Plugger take over. This meant he always kicked the bulk of his team's goals, but often for a losing cause.

Dunstall played in better teams (in the 80's) but he also worked better with his teammates. He was the ultimate professional who shared the goals and defensive responsibilities. He revolutionised the way full forwards played. In my opinion, this makes him the better footballer. Lockett was the better individual. Dunstall was the better team player, so I'll give him the nod because footy is a team game - people always seem to forget this when rating players. They just go by the highlight reel stuff and ignore the weaknesses or the boring fundamentals.

It's wrong to generalise about the pair of them and say that Dunstall played in great sides and Lockett played in shit sides, therefore Lockett was better. They both played in good and bad teams and it never had any bearing on how many goals they'd kick. Plugger received good delivery from his team-mates. The likes of Joffa Cunningham, Rob Harvey, Nicky Winmar, Paul Kelly and Wayne Schwass looked for him at every opportunity.

Let's not forget, Hawthorn were ordinary after 1992, but it didn't affect Dunstall. He continued on kicking bags of goals. He was a master craftsman. I've never seen anyone better at timing his lead, no one better at swerving and diving left or right, making shit passes look good and taking "slips catches" low to the ground. People just ignore this and attribute it all to the "good delivery from his teammates".

If it was that easy, then why doesn't every great team have a full forward kicking 100 goals?
 
Last edited:
Sydney Bloods said:
so that gives Lockett 3 best and fairest to Dunstall's 4, but plugger also was regarded as the best and fairest player in the league one year. A feat Dunstall never achieved. pretty hard to decide it on best and fairest 4 club B&F's or 3 club B&F's and a Brownlow?
To be pedantic, Lockett was never actually adjudged as the best and fairest of the league in any one year. Lockett had his breakout year in 1987 when he kicked 117 goals and tied the Brownlow Medal with John Platten. This puts him in the Top 2. Not quite the outright "best".

The only other time Plugger placed in the Top 10 of the Brownlow was his MVP season in 1991

Dunstall never won the Brownlow Medal, but he finished in the Top 2 in 1992 when the umpires robbed him (145 goals) and awarded it to Scott Wynd. He was definitely a victim of his own lofty reputation by that point, failing to get 3 votes for a 12 goal haul and failing to poll votes when he kicked bags of sixes and sevens. Wynd had an awesome breakout year, but he was also gifted a few dodgy votes.

Dunstall also tied for 2nd place (Top 3) in the 1988 Brownlow, finished equal 3rd (Top 6) in 1989 and tied for 4th place (Top 5) in 1993.

Career Brownlow votes:
  • 129 - Dunstall (0.52 votes per H&A game)
  • 128 - Lockett (0.47)
  • 100 - Ablett (0.43)
 
Brownlow Medal leader boards (1987-1998)

1987
20 Platten, John
20 Lockett, Tony
15 Meldrum, Paul
15 McGuinness, Tony
15 Royal, Brian
14 Tuck, Michael
14 Bradley, Craig
14 Kernahan, Stephen
13 Williams, Greg

1988
20 Healy, Gerard
16 Dunstall, Jason
16 Madden, Simon
15 Hall, Tony
14 Millane, Darren
14 Foster, Peter
14 Kappler, Darren
13 Gleeson, Adrian
13 Mainwaring, Chris
13 McGuinness, Tony
13 Morwood, Shane

1989
22 Couch, Paul
20 Platten, John
16 Dunstall, Jason
16 Winmar, Nicky
16 Watson, Tim
16 Williams, Greg
14 Merrett, Roger
14 Hawke, Paul
13 McKenna, Guy

1990
18 Liberatore, Tony
17 Wright, Graham
16 Silvagni, Stephen
15 Collins, Andrew
15 Bain, David
15 Lovett, Brett
14 McGuinness, Tony
13 Shaw, Tony
13 Anderson, Greg
13 Bewick, Darren

1991
25 Stynes, Jim
20 Turley, Craig
19 Hocking, Garry
18 Matera, Peter
17 Knights, Matthew
17 McLean, Michael
17 Hudson, Paul
16 Lockett, Tony
16 Cloke, David
16 Bourke, Damian

1992
20 Wynd, Scott
18 Dunstall, Jason
17 Hinkley, Ken
16 Loewe, Stewart
14 Carey, Wayne
14 Jarman, Darren
13 Kickett, Derek
12 Harvey, Robert
12 Liberatore, Tony
12 Rehn, Shaun

1993
18 Wanganeen, Gavin
17 Hocking, Garry
17 Williams, Greg
16 Dunstall, Jason
16 Carey, Wayne
14 Buckley, Nathan
14 Cameron, Leon
14 Schwass, Wayne
13 Ablett, Gary
13 Knights, Matthew

1994
30 Williams, Greg
28 Matera, Peter
20 Hocking, Garry
19 Schwass, Wayne
17 Monkhorst, Damian
16 Liberatore, Tony
15 Schwarz, David
15 Carey, Wayne
15 Grant, Chris
14 Platten, John

1995
21 Kelly, Paul
18 Jarman, Darren
17 Hocking, Garry
16 Harvey, Robert
16 Long, Michael
16 Knights, Matthew
16 Couch, Paul
15 Stynes, Jim
14 Carey, Wayne
14 Liberatore, Tony

1996
21 McKernan, Corey*
21 Voss, Michael
21 Hird, James
20 Grant, Chris
20 Burke, Nathan
19 Hocking, Garry
18 Salmon, Paul
17 Charles, Justin
17 Loewe, Stewart
17 McKenna, Guy
17 Harvey, Robert

1997
27 Grant, Chris*
26 Harvey, Robert
21 Kelly, Paul
21 Matera, Peter
18 Burke, Nathan
18 Ricciuto, Mark
16 Sholl, Brad
15 Wills, Andrew
15 Bradley, Craig
13 Jarman, Darren
13 Salmon, Paul

1998
32 Harvey, Robert
24 Buckley, Nathan
23 West, Scott
22 Rehn, Shaun
21 Ricciuto, Mark
20 Viney, Todd
20 Carey, Wayne
18 Knights, Matthew
18 Cousins, Ben
18 Brown, Fraser
16 Crawford, Shane
15 Lockett, Tony
15 Schwass, Wayne
 

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Brownlow Medal leader boards (1987-1998)

1987
20 Platten, John
20 Lockett, Tony
15 Meldrum, Paul
15 McGuinness, Tony
15 Royal, Brian
14 Tuck, Michael
14 Bradley, Craig
14 Kernahan, Stephen
13 Williams, Greg

1988
20 Healy, Gerard
16 Dunstall, Jason
16 Madden, Simon
15 Hall, Tony
14 Millane, Darren
14 Foster, Peter
14 Kappler, Darren
13 Gleeson, Adrian
13 Mainwaring, Chris
13 McGuinness, Tony
13 Morwood, Shane

1989
22 Couch, Paul
20 Platten, John
16 Dunstall, Jason
16 Winmar, Nicky
16 Watson, Tim
16 Williams, Greg
14 Merrett, Roger
14 Hawke, Paul
13 McKenna, Guy

1990
18 Liberatore, Tony
17 Wright, Graham
16 Silvagni, Stephen
15 Collins, Andrew
15 Bain, David
15 Lovett, Brett
14 McGuinness, Tony
13 Shaw, Tony
13 Anderson, Greg
13 Bewick, Darren

1991
25 Stynes, Jim
20 Turley, Craig
19 Hocking, Garry
18 Matera, Peter
17 Knights, Matthew
17 McLean, Michael
17 Hudson, Paul
16 Lockett, Tony
16 Cloke, David
16 Bourke, Damian

1992
20 Wynd, Scott
18 Dunstall, Jason
17 Hinkley, Ken
16 Loewe, Stewart
14 Carey, Wayne
14 Jarman, Darren
13 Kickett, Derek
12 Harvey, Robert
12 Liberatore, Tony
12 Rehn, Shaun

1993
18 Wanganeen, Gavin
17 Hocking, Garry
17 Williams, Greg
16 Dunstall, Jason
16 Carey, Wayne
14 Buckley, Nathan
14 Cameron, Leon
14 Schwass, Wayne
13 Ablett, Gary
13 Knights, Matthew

1994
30 Williams, Greg
28 Matera, Peter
20 Hocking, Garry
19 Schwass, Wayne
17 Monkhorst, Damian
16 Liberatore, Tony
15 Schwarz, David
15 Carey, Wayne
15 Grant, Chris
14 Platten, John

1995
21 Kelly, Paul
18 Jarman, Darren
17 Hocking, Garry
16 Harvey, Robert
16 Long, Michael
16 Knights, Matthew
16 Couch, Paul
15 Stynes, Jim
14 Carey, Wayne
14 Liberatore, Tony

1996
21 McKernan, Corey*
21 Voss, Michael
21 Hird, James
20 Grant, Chris
20 Burke, Nathan
19 Hocking, Garry
18 Salmon, Paul
17 Charles, Justin
17 Loewe, Stewart
17 McKenna, Guy
17 Harvey, Robert

1997
27 Grant, Chris*
26 Harvey, Robert
21 Kelly, Paul
21 Matera, Peter
18 Burke, Nathan
18 Ricciuto, Mark
16 Sholl, Brad
15 Wills, Andrew
15 Bradley, Craig
13 Jarman, Darren
13 Salmon, Paul

1998
32 Harvey, Robert
24 Buckley, Nathan
23 West, Scott
22 Rehn, Shaun
21 Ricciuto, Mark
20 Viney, Todd
20 Carey, Wayne
18 Knights, Matthew
18 Cousins, Ben
18 Brown, Fraser
16 Crawford, Shane
15 Lockett, Tony
15 Schwass, Wayne

unfortunately you can not base FF on brownlows ..... 1992 was the best example of when a FF should have won

what's harder 8 goals or 30 stats ? the umps will almost always give the 3 to the player with the most stats and its wrong !!!
 
unfortunately you can not base FF on brownlows ..... 1992 was the best example of when a FF should have won

what's harder 8 goals or 30 stats ? the umps will almost always give the 3 to the player with the most stats and its wrong !!!

ps; both lockett and dunstall are A+ all time greats .... cant split them
 
plugger was amazing, Dunstall wasnt and doesnt isnt worth Locketts arseh*le in comparing the 2
Lockett played in a shit Stkilda side for most of his career, while Dunstall's team was winning grand sinals Locketts team was winning wooden spoons, & Lockett still Kicked more goals

Someone ban this peasant
 
On this topic how can you split them? They say a measure of ones greatness is the team success they've had and that's why Jordan will always be superior to Lebron and even Kobe has the ledger tilted in his way at this stage.

If team success is the measure of 2 guys you can barely split then you have to go with Dunstall. In saying that I'm not suggesting he would be my choice over Plugger, and tbh I really can't select either one.
 
On this topic how can you split them? They say a measure of ones greatness is the team success they've had and that's why Jordan will always be superior to Lebron and even Kobe has the ledger tilted in his way at this stage.

If team success is the measure of 2 guys you can barely split then you have to go with Dunstall. In saying that I'm not suggesting he would be my choice over Plugger, and tbh I really can't select either one.
Agree , just acknowledge both are two of the greatest ever !!!!!
 
  • Michael tuck in 1987 aged what ? 34 ?

Brownlow Medal leader boards (1987-1998)

1987
20 Platten, John
20 Lockett, Tony
15 Meldrum, Paul
15 McGuinness, Tony
15 Royal, Brian
14 Tuck, Michael
14 Bradley, Craig
14 Kernahan, Stephen
13 Williams, Greg

1988
20 Healy, Gerard
16 Dunstall, Jason
16 Madden, Simon
15 Hall, Tony
14 Millane, Darren
14 Foster, Peter
14 Kappler, Darren
13 Gleeson, Adrian
13 Mainwaring, Chris
13 McGuinness, Tony
13 Morwood, Shane

1989
22 Couch, Paul
20 Platten, John
16 Dunstall, Jason
16 Winmar, Nicky
16 Watson, Tim
16 Williams, Greg
14 Merrett, Roger
14 Hawke, Paul
13 McKenna, Guy

1990
18 Liberatore, Tony
17 Wright, Graham
16 Silvagni, Stephen
15 Collins, Andrew
15 Bain, David
15 Lovett, Brett
14 McGuinness, Tony
13 Shaw, Tony
13 Anderson, Greg
13 Bewick, Darren

1991
25 Stynes, Jim
20 Turley, Craig
19 Hocking, Garry
18 Matera, Peter
17 Knights, Matthew
17 McLean, Michael
17 Hudson, Paul
16 Lockett, Tony
16 Cloke, David
16 Bourke, Damian

1992
20 Wynd, Scott
18 Dunstall, Jason
17 Hinkley, Ken
16 Loewe, Stewart
14 Carey, Wayne
14 Jarman, Darren
13 Kickett, Derek
12 Harvey, Robert
12 Liberatore, Tony
12 Rehn, Shaun

1993
18 Wanganeen, Gavin
17 Hocking, Garry
17 Williams, Greg
16 Dunstall, Jason
16 Carey, Wayne
14 Buckley, Nathan
14 Cameron, Leon
14 Schwass, Wayne
13 Ablett, Gary
13 Knights, Matthew

1994
30 Williams, Greg
28 Matera, Peter
20 Hocking, Garry
19 Schwass, Wayne
17 Monkhorst, Damian
16 Liberatore, Tony
15 Schwarz, David
15 Carey, Wayne
15 Grant, Chris
14 Platten, John

1995
21 Kelly, Paul
18 Jarman, Darren
17 Hocking, Garry
16 Harvey, Robert
16 Long, Michael
16 Knights, Matthew
16 Couch, Paul
15 Stynes, Jim
14 Carey, Wayne
14 Liberatore, Tony

1996
21 McKernan, Corey*
21 Voss, Michael
21 Hird, James
20 Grant, Chris
20 Burke, Nathan
19 Hocking, Garry
18 Salmon, Paul
17 Charles, Justin
17 Loewe, Stewart
17 McKenna, Guy
17 Harvey, Robert

1997
27 Grant, Chris*
26 Harvey, Robert
21 Kelly, Paul
21 Matera, Peter
18 Burke, Nathan
18 Ricciuto, Mark
16 Sholl, Brad
15 Wills, Andrew
15 Bradley, Craig
13 Jarman, Darren
13 Salmon, Paul

1998
32 Harvey, Robert
24 Buckley, Nathan
23 West, Scott
22 Rehn, Shaun
21 Ricciuto, Mark
20 Viney, Todd
20 Carey, Wayne
18 Knights, Matthew
18 Cousins, Ben
18 Brown, Fraser
16 Crawford, Shane
15 Lockett, Tony
15 Schwass, Wayne
 

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Doesn't matter when you have two great full-forwards like this to choose from. The only thing I disagree with is the argument that Lockett is automatically better due to his goal average or totals. Other aspects of play need to be considered, including Dunstall's better defensive and team game.
 
Charles Barkley > Magic Johnson.
Sure Magic had the success, but Kareem made him look good. Wait wrong board?

Seriously though, I was born in 92 so I only vaguely remember them, but after 20 years at 2 teams of not a lick of success you can't blame teammates and you certainly can't use a lack of success to bolster yourself individually, only in Aussie Rules have I seen that logic used. Meanwhile everyone agrees that Voss is better than Buckley largely because Buckley never won anything, I really don't see consistent logic here for the Dunstall v Lockett argument. Some idiots on this board suggested we made Buddy look good for example. I think it's born of jealousy. It doesn't mean you're a selfish player, but it doesn't make you a better forward having a poor team. Logic could easily counter it by pointing out that Dunstall played with a lot of other good forwards that demand the ball, yet he still kicked so many and got the best defender.

If you look at stats, they were both fairly even so that's all I can say. Maybe if Lockett were brought up in the Hawthorn system he would have been more team oriented, he certainly had no reason to be at the Saints or the Swans. I remember a Jordan quote to the effect of "if we're down by 20 in the last quarter, I'm shooting" (in the 80's). And yeah maybe if Dunstall were a Fitzroy player he wouldn't have been as good, problem is he WAS a bloody good Hawthorn player.
 
Other aspects of play need to be considered, including Dunstall's better defensive and team game.

That's a myth which is often sprouted around on here in particular.
Show me a seasons worth of highlights which demonstrates Dunstall's defensive pressure and 'team-orientated' attributes?
Statistics alone do not give any indication as tackles and handballs are not too dissimilar. I'd be willing to bet to you that Lockett's defensive pressure as well as his ability to assist with goal/s per game would have been just as proficient as that of Dunstall.
 
That's a myth which is often sprouted around on here in particular.
Show me a seasons worth of highlights which demonstrates Dunstall's defensive pressure and 'team-orientated' attributes?

I doubt anyone has made a season's worth of highlights of Dunstall's team-oriented work :rolleyes:

Statistics alone do not give any indication as tackles and handballs are not too dissimilar. I'd be willing to bet to you that Lockett's defensive pressure as well as his ability to assist with goal/s per game would have been just as proficient as that of Dunstall.

I don't care what you'd be willing to bet.
 
Doesn't matter when you have two great full-forwards like this to choose from. The only thing I disagree with is the argument that Lockett is automatically better due to his goal average or totals. Other aspects of play need to be considered, including Dunstall's better defensive and team game.

They played in the 80s and 90s mate, neither had a defensive bone in their bodies
 
Plugger was so good he managed to win a Brownlow despite being a known thug player.
Dunstall was robbed of a Brownlow in 1993, but then we all know that the 1993 Brownlow was fixed so an indigenous player won it in the year of the indigenous player.
 

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They played in the 80s and 90s mate, neither had a defensive bone in their bodies
This is simply untrue. Dunstall set up loads of goals for his team-mates with his forward pressure, chasing, tackling and smothered handballs. When people described him as the most unselfish full forward ever, they didn't just mean passing the ball off to team-mates in better position. They also meant his defensive efforts. It wasn't just about the goals he kicked. He raised the bar and changed the way forwards played the game. The Hawks changed the game. Watch the highlights of the 1986-88-89 Grand Finals and look at all the goals Hawthorn scored from harrassing their opponents into error.

You say Lockett. I say Dunstall. How about we defer to the opinions of two neutral, unbiased experts?


"Jason Dunstall was the most difficult full forward I ever played on… no matter what I did to him, it was a complete waste of time because I could never ever distract him from the focus of getting the ball and kicking goals…. In a lot of ways, I respected him as the best full forward."


- Gary Pert (233 games at FB for Fitzroy & Collingwood)


"I've always said Jason Dunstall is the best player I've played against and seen. OK, he was in a very good side and a lot of people will argue with me, but I'm going to stick with him and say he was the best. Lockett at no.2. Purely for dragging people to the footy. You didn't know if he was going to kick 20 goals or get 10 weeks for hitting someone. He was unbelievable."


- Wayne Carey (272 games at CHF for North Melbourne & Adelaide)
 
Definitely Lockett he was simply the best! When watching most fullbacks talk about who their toughest was, often they say Lockett. Lockett's size and speed over a short distance was like a bull coming at you, which made him very difficult to control.
I loved Dunstall but he wasn't alone in sharing the ball. Watch Lockett get BOG in state of origin, he created just as many goals as he kicked. Along with Ablett in the forward line they were awesome!
 
In 1987, Tony Lockett won a Brownlow Medal as a 21yr old, and was about to enter his prime. In the next 7 seasons for St. Kilda he played only 90 games (ave. 12.9 games/season) and kicked 546 goals (ave. 6.06 goals/game).

Now imagine if he averaged 20 games per season in that time with the same average of 6.06 goals/game. That would increase his goalkicking total by another 302 goals (1662 career goals).

It's no coincidence that when Lockett played his most games per season during this 'peak' time, St. Kilda played finals (1991 and 1992). He did this in a team that was relatively weak in the scheme of the competition.


It's a no contest for me... Lockett was an absolute phenom, and that's taking nothing away from Dunstall. Had Lockett had a better run with injury/suspension, and had Hawthorn's midfield kicking it lace-out on to his chest each weak, we wouldn't even be comparing the two
 
Let me guess - hawks fans blindly picking dunstall, swans and saints the same for lockett?

As an anti-swan and meh about hawks I'd go lockett in a tight one. Dunstall was a more team orientated player but could be in a dominant hawks outfit.

Lockett plays for hawks in that period and he most likely kicks another goal per game (250-ish).

He's bigger, stronger, more physical and fearsome in a physical era of footy. Dunstall slightly smarter and works a bit harder. Marking and kicking pretty similar - Slight edge to lockett in those. Consistency just to dunstall, ability to tear open a game just to lockett.

If it were a computer game and you're rating players out of 100 It'd probably look like lockett 96 dunstall 93. Two of the all time greats.

Lockets ability to get suspended is a big issue when building a team to push for a flag. As a hypothetical it'd be galling for a coach to lose your gun full forward for the finals due to suspension - a threat that would be ever present if lockett played on good teams earlier in his career.
 
Let me guess - hawks fans blindly picking dunstall, swans and saints the same for lockett?

As an anti-swan and meh about hawks I'd go lockett in a tight one. Dunstall was a more team orientated player but could be in a dominant hawks outfit.

Lockett plays for hawks in that period and he most likely kicks another goal per game (250-ish).

He's bigger, stronger, more physical and fearsome in a physical era of footy. Dunstall slightly smarter and works a bit harder. Marking and kicking pretty similar - Slight edge to lockett in those. Consistency just to dunstall, ability to tear open a game just to lockett.

If it were a computer game and you're rating players out of 100 It'd probably look like lockett 96 dunstall 93. Two of the all time greats.

Lockets ability to get suspended is a big issue when building a team to push for a flag. As a hypothetical it'd be galling for a coach to lose your gun full forward for the finals due to suspension - a threat that would be ever present if lockett played on good teams earlier in his career.[/QUOTE

Nearly all the big name players had suspensions throughout their careers and Lockett decided to excel in that to. Today Lockett's biggest problem would be how much worse the media is. Forget how the game has changed, the constant media scrutiny would kill him.
Poor old Eddie had flying crutches thrown in his face, imagine what some of the others would get!
For me he's in my top 3 of all time, i loved him and wish we had more just like him!
 
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