Mega Thread The Western Bulldogs - The Sack Macca saga

[Mofra]

Good post. No coach is perfect, but if the benefits outweigh the negatives, and the club and the list are developing and moving forward - this should be considered a good situation...

This sums it up for me.

I think players & coaches have faults (and I'm still not sold on the MC selections this year, although having the rationale some explained to me changed my opinion on some of them) but I think at this stage of our development cultural change is more important than not addressing off field issues and just thinking tinkering with tactics is our best course of action. We need long term change because short termism has given us nothing for 60+ years.

And kudos to _M_16_ for an impressive post, possibly the best on this thread thus far.

 

[timtamWB]

People have asked me how I can be critical of aspects of Macca's tenure but also support him as coach going forward. I think this quote sums it up for me.

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.

Which is fair enough. I expect it to change

I'm going to speak on behalf of the "positive" camp. I think that the positive camp is ok with talking to people like yourself (I'm just going to use you as an example) because although you may be critical of McCartney, you can back it up and you aren't overwhelmingly negative for the sake of it, you just love the club and have a different view to some on here and all of it is justified.

For me personally, I think Macca is still the right coach to take us forward, but we have to give him time to turn it into what his vision is, because for too long we've wanted the immediate success, which is part of what's cost us Grand Final places.

I think some are beginning to change their view on Macca, because before he was more of an "easy goes it" coach, and now we're seeing more of a hard-ass and the change is startling a couple of people. Whether it's good or bad, we'll wait and see.

 

[_Mike_]

People have asked me how I can be critical of aspects of Macca's tenure but also support him as coach going forward. I think this quote sums it up for me.

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.

The club needs to be critical of McCartney's progress until he starts showing a consistent improvement in form, injuries aside, so do the supporters of the club who fork out cash every year to support it.

Criticism in context is healthy IMO

 

[littlenails]

Okay, normally I avoid this thread most of the time, because I got sick of reading the countless posts from BOTH sides, of imature bitch fests between each other, and the constantly repeating of the same thing over and over. It's like watching re-runs of The Jerry Springer Show

But you know what? I thought I would post my latest thoughts in depth about what I think of Macca and what side of the debate I sit on.

Let me start of by saying this

I have read countless posts from all over the place from those who are firmly in the anti Macca camp. And what I have found the most amusing about the same group of people, is how much a few of them use the "you're blind and only accepting mediocity" line when they attack anyone who pledges their support to Macca and what the team is trying to do.

They claim to be not accepting mediocrity by following their line and accuse everyone else who expresses their support for the coach, of accepting it. But the more I learn and hear about things, the more I read about things, the more I start to question things and I then ask myself. Perhaps the shoe is actually on the other foot, and those who claim to not accept medocrity are the ones who actually do accept it. And the ones who support the clubs plan and Macca are actually against it.

Let me start off from by talking about the current "in house problems" at the club. Before I continue, let me remind you all how this all just started off as a small mention in the media about how some players were not happy and walked out of their exit meetings. And how days later, it somehow became something about our club being in crisis, with a bunch of Bulldogs supports making comments all over the place how the club is in chaos, and that everyone wants to leave, and that no one likes the coach etc. It wasn't the club, media or players who blew it up, that's for sure.

Where did all this sensationalism come from? Well by following a lot of those who were screaming out to others about chaos, just about all of them were already on the "negative" bandwagon. Those same people hate the coach so much, that without any rationale reasoning or proof, they automatically blame the coach for every issue. Now whether they did this on purpose to hurt fan morale to try and force the coach to be sacked, or whether they are just so guliable, that they latch onto anything and add their own versions of events to it because its what they want to beleive.

Of course despite it happening to ALL clubs over time, and happening EVERY YEAR, that fringe players come and go. For some reason the same people in the "we hate Macca" camp, decided without proof, to suddenly link these players leaving, to a mysterious internal crisis that will destroy the club unless we get rid of Macca. All because, we had one more player leave than they felt comportable with. "It never happens to us, this is a once off, its the coach I tell you". Despite it happening to many clubs historically, that a few players have left in one year. Tutt and Jones simply left for what is 90% more likely they simply wanted more opportunities, period. Yet the "negative brigade", choose to think of it as the other possible 10% of a reason only and refuse to even consisder the more likely possibilites.

And when I tell them to grow up and stop spreading bullshit around to other fans, and hurting the morale of others, and when I bring up certain points and encourange them to think more rationally. Like if it was that bad, the players would have had Gordon sack him by now. Guess it cannot be as bad as you think right? How about we actually wait and see what happens first? When star players, or our young guns want to leave, then we can start worrying yeah? Guess which one gets abused? Yep, I get called the C-word, constantly get told to "take off my rose coloured glassses, the club is in crisis and everyone wants to leave, can't you see what is happening" Simply because I was the more mature one, and live my life based on facts and not assumptions, and that you should'nt add believe everything you read or hear like some kind of southerner rednecked american does. Of course I end up getting abused even more so and reminded thats its true "because three (crap) players want out" and the media are reporting it, and others (their fellow mates probably) are saying it

Back to the so called in house drama that is going on at the moment. YES, there has been some people taking issue to things, and NO there is no inner club crisis. And quiet a few of you have been right, the issue actually does within the senior players.

Now, what I have found is that most (not all) of the people who are in the "negative camp", have come out screaming on every bloody post, that Macca has installed a negative culture himself. Well, sorry to dissapoint the lot of you, but the opposite rings true. If we didn't bring Macca in, we'd be royally stuffed worse than Melbourne right now.

For years now, this club has been plauged by poor culture, and probably poor management. Most notably the in the 70's, when we could of capitilised on many things and been one of the more powerful clubs in the state, except we bungled up our list management and finances which sent us to the very depths and almost destroyed us, which we have not recovered from ever since. Every time, the club has run around with no true long term planning, not making bold moves, and has not tried installing a good culture around the club.

Despite looking back fondly at our Preliminary Finals and what good years we had, apparently to the negative brigade that also means the club has a good enough is close enough culture. So I hope everyone remembers this lesson from them, you're not allowed to look back on the small things in life, just like the club cannot look back on fondly on what was a good season. Because the fun nazis say we can't. Sorry, but that is the biggest load of crap ever. I gurantee you NOT ONE club offical, player or fan (well the good ones), would be happy that we were not able to make the big dance, and all will trade those moments and preliminary finals for a flag. We are allowed to look back on the small achievements, thats not the club accepting it, thats just you trying to make out that way because of your bitter and twisted views. A good season is a good season, whether you won the ultimate or what

The players that the "negative" brigade are actually supporting, and blaming the coach for in terms of tensions, are actually the ones who are carrying that poor culture around the club and holding the team back.

Having spoken to many people who have worked with Macca, or know him personally. Or from speaking to some guys who have played with him at Ocean Grove have all said exactly the same thing. Off the field, he is one of the most nicest and gentle blokes you have ever met. But on the field, he is very straight line, hard and honest. Even a couple of players have said he is more vocal and scarier than Eade (there goes that myth about him being soft, simply because he didnt smash his phone or swear enough on camera during game day). He does not accept shit from anyone, does not accept individuals and those who are not willing to do the team thing. In fact, to some he is even the best coach they have ever had.

He is so passionate about the club, and wants to win as much as the most hardcore fans does. Just because he sounds very vanilla during press conferences, does not mean he is making excuses, he is just being honest with where the list is at, which most people have no idea about list management and the time involved in doing it right. Nor is he accepting a close loss, which is what the "negative brigade" choose to interpret it as. He is allowed to praise the team for effort, what do you want him to do, call them shit for not winning a game they lose by a goal? Talk about destroying team morale. Almost every Football team I have played for, the coach praises us for the effort. Sometimes the team is simply not good enough to win, and its not the coaches fault, its the fact of the reality of the talent and experience at their disposal. You have a go at players who bust their asses off, but are not at an elite level. I would rather play for a team where every player plays their heart out, regardless of the result, than one that doesn't. But in a loss, surely its better to go down trying, than playing crap and not trying at all?

I will always take the word of those who have worked with, and under him over a bunch of people who have no clue. The problem with culture is not defined to the Bulldogs, its the issue with modern footballers. Whilst professionalsm has gone up, the mentallity of many players has not. Simply, "I am a footballer, I am better than you, you can't tell me what to do" kind of ego runs around many individual players in the AFL. There is some of those players at the Bulldogs. Money, self worth, egos are more important than Football to some in the league. To some, AFL is a luxury and a measure of self worth, than a passion or a job.

This season, despite the "negatives" saying our kids have gone no where. When backed by statistics and facts, it shows they actually did improve this season in many facets of the game. It was actually the senior players who let us down this year. Who was it who led the club and gave us our last few wins when the media was on our throats about performaces and said that the development was stalling? Thats right, it was the younger players who stood up and played the better football. Though some on the "negatives" refuse to acknowledge that and still claim that "everyone says the kids havent improved", even though almost all of the mid season critics changed their tune and heaped praise on our recent draftings and what they could become, that they took another step up this year.

At the end of the year, Macca decided to be very honest, more honest than he has every been. He has given people enough time to see what they stand for, been nurturing enough for long enough. The time for honesty and hardness was here, it was time certain players to get a brutal assessment by himself, and he didnt hold back. And a few were taken back by surprise. Some acted like real men, took it in stride, and are willing to go out and be the better person. However there is also some....

Mark Thompson (who many in the negatives scream out for as one of the blokes to coach our team, yet funny they ignore what he said, just like they ignored Will Minson saying everything was good, because you know, their ideas are more truthful than the facts coming from a player and a respected coach) was correct in his pot shot at the senior players at us and the Crows. To many senior players are not willing to accept change. And that is true, there are some who have not taken Macca's message to well, and are not willing to put their egos aside, put in the hard work, to change their way for the betterment of themselves and the club, to take the club forward. It is those senior players who are holding the club back, not the coach, not the board, not the younger players. In fact, it would not surprise me if two of the sofest blokes who asked to leave are part of that group. The club has stated that the team is bigger than the individual.

Mark Thompson and his crew had the same issues when they first took over at Geelong, in the end they teminated the contracts, and traded out those who thought they were above the team. They had some down years, many wanted him sacked. In the end they set out on a long term goal to not only bring in people with good footballing ability, but a good mentality as well. In the end they had a bloody close knit team, they played for each other, put in the hard work, and became on of the greatest and most successful teams we have ever seen. This is what the Bulldogs are trying to impliment as well.

Many of those who pot Macca, seem to be on the side of the Senior players based on many things I have read about, saying Macca is chasing them out, what happens when Bontempelli wants out? Acting like we lost star players. Funny how most of them have a go at the club for years for not being hard enough, yet when we finally grow a pair and be tough as nails, we are suddenly being to hard on the players. Seems like the club cannot win at all.

Now all the above is just my opinion, if you don't like it, then that's fair enough. I don't expect everyone to, but if you have a problem with is, stiff shit, I don't want to hear about it. This is my opinion, based on rational thinking, common sense, patience, actually trying to understand the club, and getting to know individuals involved. Just to make it clear, my criticism is NOT a dig at any person, or persons on here, so please do not automatically assume it is you. And when I refer to the "negatives", I refer to a certain few from within the "no faith in Macca camp", not all of them. Who regularly show up everywhere, and post the same stuff, and are rude and nasty as anything. So please don't bother to feel the need to quote me, abuse me, challenge me, or shove your views down my throat. Yes I have seen the same argument repeated on here 100 times, I get your opinions, I respect it, and don't need to hear it again. This is my own opinion, and perhaps some people need to learn to be able to accept the opinions of others without feeling the need to challenge or abuse them.

To give everyone a gauge about what a few of the negative supporters are like based on what the same people post here and there. It seems most of them don't pay attention to the team outside of game day, have no idea about how list management works, and are down right nasty and rude, yet still force their opinion down your throat as truth, yet claim it is us doing it to them. This is some of the things they do, say or think.

1. Port Adelaide became good overnight, why cant we? The biggest myth used by them out there, Port were actually building for years before Hinkley took over, in fact about 6 years before they became very good again. We are probably half way their not even. The difference, Hinkley took over a team that had the right age and experience profile, their star players having played more than 50 games for the club, or hitting their mid 20's, as well as good young talent in all key position areas. We are the opposite with huge age gaps missing, and lack key position prospects.

2. Three fringe players have left, despite it being a normal thing, somehow despite no proof, it was somehow evidence of a club in crisis and no one wanting to play for us, and if you were rational about it, you're blind so they say

3. Say we don't do enough list managment wise. Yet scream that we should pick up duds like Jesse White or Dawes, or Gumbleton, and probably should give up Dahlhaus for one of them. That is their common mindset and attitude. Or trade away Macrae, and already proven near gun for the Demons pick three places up. Or maybe go back a few years where we should have used our first round pick to draft an old and misbehaving and out of form Fevola. Yep, despite claiming they are for the better of the club, this is the type of stuff I read from most "negative" people out and about. So essentially their list managment ideas is to destroy the club

4. A few hours into the trade period. "F**k your new announcement, just go out there and do your f**king jobs and get us someone good" Geez, can anyone be more of a prick?

5. A new logo released, "stuff your logo, why are you wasting time on this and not getting us any trades yet. Despite it being day two of the trade period, and the marketing and management areas being two entirely seperate departments

6. Abuse and call someone a name when they express an opposite opinion, yet act like they are the victim and the other person is mean, when all the did was try to defend themselves.

7. Maccas fault certain players are crap and got no where. So even the ones who are lazy, and only in it for the lifestyle, its Maccas fault. Even though they were also crap under Eade who set us up to be like this.

8. Garlick says things are okay, Macca says things are okay, Minson says things are okay, Higgins says he had no issue with the coach, the other Macca says things are fine, Gordon says things are fine. But hey, despite all of this, the negatives still insist their is an internal crisis, and that those in the knows opinions don't matter or count, only their own and what they want to believe.

9. Scream we are stupid we didn't pick up Foster, because you know, only total TAC Cup goals matter, not the other stats or things about the player. One raw stat only is how we judge players. Oh, and Cordy is crap because his name is Cordy, even though he has yet to play a game.

They say all this dumb crap, and expect to be taken seriously? God help the club if they ran it

So there you have it, those ones who claim to be for the good of the club, and right about everything. Setting such great examples of how to behave as a member of the community and fans. They are the ones who are reading things and claiming them as truth without any facts, they are the ones who come up with stupid ideas of given away star players and recruiting duds, they are the idiots who think Sam Reid is worth a pick 6, they are the ones who are spreading all the lies and false reports, they are the ones who think teams never fall and play finals the year after, they are the ones who abuse people who politely question something etc. They are the ones adding their versions to things, spreading lies and making other fans fear. And people wonder why I shake my head at times. A smart, rational and polite person with an opposite opinion, who is open minded and respectful to what another person sees or thinks, I can stand, but then you have the opposite. There are a few on here that don't believe the coach will get anywhere, and have made some fair comments, which I can see where they are coming from and respect.

I am on Maccas side and support him with everything he is doing. Do I think he will get us the Premiership? Probably not, but hey, stuff the Premiership. Before anyone tries to highlight that last statement to claim I have no passion to win, or don't care. I do care, just like every other fans out there, and just as much. Whether you like the coach or not, I doubt you will find a single individual who does care. All of us have a common goal and want to win the Premiership, no matter what your opinion are. The future doesn't overly matter, it is about what we do NOW and between then that matters most. Because what we do tomorrow, is what defines the future. He is here for one reason, and that is to develop the list, turn boys into men. We are not winning the Grand Final tomorrow, we are developing with the long term goal to be competitive and win a few flags. Macca to me, based on those who know him, and have been taught under him, IS the right man for the job. The sad thing is, the media and hateful fans (who are actually the minority) will probably have his head before he gets the chance to carry the team when it is ready, like Williams, Clarkson and Thompson did. Thats the sad thing about being a develpmental coach, you do the hard yards for a team that won't win much no matter what, simply because they lack the talent or experience, and the next coach gets all the credit for actually doing little but being good come game day.

If any of the greats of AFL coaching took over Mebourne two years ago, they would have struggled as well and gotten no where, and gotten the sack, and would never coach again and have multiple Premierships to their names like they do. That is the common life of a development coach, or the first one that takes over a poor team. The same applies for terrible coaches, given the chance to have a great team and list, they could have gone on to make a legacy of their own and won heaps of flags. I strongly believe you're only as good as the team you have, and I think Macca has done a solid job, not spectacular of course. Given he inherited a list that was wrecked by a match day coach only in Eade. By trying to top up and making many poor calls. Good players leaving the club (not fringe players, where was Eades hate and calls of a club crisis?) Drafting poor players with first round picks. I think he is overrated by some. After the Eade area, you add in the clubs histoically crap ability to find or develop key position prospects (apparently only ever happend under Maccas watch). And given the lack of support staff, facilites, no VFL team, and being forced to juggle to many more duties along with coaching, they coaches of bigger clubs don't have to worry about. As well as compromised drafts in which we missed out on many good players, including key position ones as well.

I believe in Macca, and what the club is doing. For the first time EVER, we actually have a long term goal, to actually do things on and off the field. We have for the first time ever, we have decided to build the list fully from the ground up, which they admitted at the start would take five years to show some results, not a couple like some impatient people want. We want to finally get things right, and not try to rush things. We are working on changing the culture of the club for the better, and installing a team environment, in which the train doesnt take any passengers. Macca is honest to the players, fans, and his own ability. And despite what some claim on here, I have spoken to people directly involved with him, and many players love him as a coach, and respect him. The club has taken many duties off him, so he can focus on match day coaching and one on one training and teaching. Will fill in extra support staff, and help bring in somoene to help with tactics whilst he learns himself, particualry to help with opposition analysis. We have invested heaps of money in our departments, coaching and our own VFL team. You guys have no idea how much this will help the team

He may not win us a flag, but we have had our best period of drafting and trading EVER in our history, with more hits than misses, and some young players who are progressing faster than most young players do (If only Eade got Jones and crew to do that hey? Maybe they would be good now). He has built the cornerstones of the future, and is changing the culture at the club. Some wont look back on him fondly, but if we have a good run in a few years, it will because of what he has done to set us up for it. If we can find some good forwards and defenders to the mould of players like Macrae and Bontempelli, we will be in a good spot. No matter who was coach, we would still be struggling now. Maybe even worse if we didn't get someone with a strict criteria on drafting and to stand up to the culture. We could have drafted a dozen Howards and Higgins instead like Eade would have given us if he was still here now.

A former Cats player, and even some fans who were their back around in 54 have mentioned the same opinion as me, or agreed with it. The problem lies with certain individuals, but not the coach or board.

I am impressed with the clubs honestly, passion and hardline approach, it is about time we had some heart. For the first time ever, the negative culture that has hung around the club and holding us back is being knocked away. The club is finally doing something, yet the people who "want Macca sacked", doesnt agree with his methods and want to stand by the players with a bad culture and blame the coach for it instead. Maybe they should actually pay more attention to the game, look at the vision from the clubs standpoint, and actually get to know the person who makes the coach within.

Those who are on the supportive side often get hit at for being blind and like they are under attack. But its normally the negative ones who attack people without grace, ignore facts and make opinions of their own, come up with silliest things, based on what I have seen.

Perhaps those fans who see the clubs vision and support the coach, are actually not supporting mediocrity afterall. Perhaps its those bitter fans who want the club to stay the same, sack the people bringing out a good change in culture at the club, keep the ones who made us into this mess, are the ones who are actually accepting mediocity themselves?

As much as losing sucks, I am refreshed by the clubs new change of direction, and I am actually excited about the future

PS: Just an extra line to make sure I beat Dan's post record

Hi M16. I love your passion as a fellow Bulldogs supporter. It was good that you took so much trouble to write such a large missive.

Do you have inside knowledge of the goings-on at the club? You mention players with a bad culture. How do you know this? I can see why many people are enamored with Macca, because of his preaching of a change in culture and a recipe of sustained success, something that is all very dear to our hearts.

But three years into his tenure we have to look and take stock. Things, coaching-wise look a bit crook. If Macca had of sacked Higgins, Cooney, Jones and Tutt I would have had more respect for him. The fact that they walked out smacks of bad man-management skills. Am I trying to grasp a floating straw that maybe Macca pushed them to leave as a strategy that would net us better draft picks in trade deals?

There is so much that we do not know. Of player's opinions, whose would you trust, most would probably tow the party line or give an answer that doesn't rock the boat or burn bridges. I'd like to hear from Tony Libba.

Your post certainly is a very long. Too long really. I would say that almost nobody would read all of it. Those keen readers would probably read the first sentence per paragraph, scan the last sentence and blur the middle. Despite you checking it 50 times there were still spelling errors. Good on you anyway.

 

[TedDougChris]

The club needs to be critical of McCartney's progress until he starts showing a consistent improvement in form, injuries aside, so do the supporters of the club who fork out cash every year to support it.

Criticism in context is healthy IMO

I think Gordon has clearly stated (or I've just randomly interpreted - which can happen, I'm still struggling with jetlag) that everyone at the club has had some frank discussions about our performance this year and improvements are required across the board.

From that I take it that Macca has faced some criticism and needs to improve. Which I think is fair.

 

[Sharkey66]

Which is fair enough. I expect it to change

I'm going to speak on behalf of the "positive" camp. I think that the positive camp is ok with talking to people like yourself (I'm just going to use you as an example) because although you may be critical of McCartney, you can back it up and you aren't overwhelmingly negative for the sake of it, you just love the club and have a different view to some on here and all of it is justified.

For me personally, I think Macca is still the right coach to take us forward, but we have to give him time to turn it into what his vision is, because for too long we've wanted the immediate success, which is part of what's cost us Grand Final places.

I think some are beginning to change their view on Macca, because before he was more of an "easy goes it" coach, and now we're seeing more of a hard-ass and the change is startling a couple of people. Whether it's good or bad, we'll wait and see.

I agree with most of your post TT and agree that he needs time, but the question begs, just when has he had enough time. Everyone has a different opinion.
And if he is not the coach to take us forward, could he cause the club some serious damage? If he is the wrong bloke, as a few claim, he could cause massive damage to the clubs future prospects, in membership or sponsership dropoff, worse exposure to our brand due to being a permanent cellar dweller, a brisbane like player exodus.
And yet he just could be the right bloke, as you said, he needs time. But how much?

For what its worth i'm still not sure as i just don't know enough about the inner workings of the club or Maccas mind. I'm Hoping, but I admit i am just a little worried.
Just remember, there are many supporters outside of Bigfooty world that simply are not as well informed as we are on here, who will make decisions on membership etc based on what they read in the papers or hear on the radio. Or even Facebook.
And we all know what they are like.

 

[Proffessor]

and yes what if that is the case? you expect everyone here to side with your view? maturity is understanding that others see things differently to your own opinion.. Those players wanting to leave are making decisions for their own future. The only one out of that crop who had a prosperous future was Jones.

Time to stop crying over spilled milk



What value is Cooney to this team in the future? Do you have some sort of inside knowledge that they are going to do something magical to his knee allowing him to recapture his best form? news flash.. not going to happen. If we can get currency out of Cooney while it's still there any astute mind would see the longer term benefits rather than Cooney playing on and going for nothing as a FA or retiring through injury

I'm not crying over spilled milk, I'm suggesting that we take the milk away from the bloke who keeps spilling it all over the place.

Keeping Adam Cooney presents significant value to both the team and the club.

Firstly he would still be clearly in our best 22 and play regularly. I know that there are many people who are critical of Cooney on this forum but I think most show their ignorance by doing so. In the periods when the team played their best football this past season, Cooney typically played a major role.

Just by his presence; he can show the young players that they can develop into champions and win a Brownlow without leaving the club to do so. He can show them how a great player prepares himself and continues to play good football despite carrying a chronic injury. He can demonstrate that the club can actually show loyalty to a player if it is warranted, which might even inspire them to return the favour some day.

People talk about him having no currency if he leaves next year, but if the trade talk is to be believed it looks like the club is prepared to take next to nothing for him this year, as well as lose a contracted year from a club great who is loved by many fans. Besides, if the club gets it's act together then perhaps he might want to stay on after next year as well.

At present it looks like the club is prepared to let go of a player whose loss would diminish the team and further upset supporters, for a very measly return indeed.

And to those who suggest we need to free up salary room, I ask who on the team is left that deserves to be paid the freed up money? With the current state of our list, I expect we will already be forced to overpay several young players to reach the minimum salary requirement, which will likely create further problems for us down the track.

Even if he goes for free after next season, I would rather take an extra year of Adam Cooney than take what it is supposedly being offered in return.

 

[Proffessor]

People have asked me how I can be critical of aspects of Macca's tenure but also support him as coach going forward. I think this quote sums it up for me.

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.

So you are complaining about the wind but some how expecting it to change?

I vote to adjust the sails (or the senior coaching appointment as the case may be).

 

[_Mike_]

At present it looks like the club is prepared to let go of a player whose loss would diminish the team and further upset supporters, for a very measly return indeed.

Cooney's average stats this season were 10 kicks, 9 handballs ranked 8th overall on average and the argument that Cooney leaving would diminish the team further is subjective and some his games towards the end of this season were sub standard.

Cooney's playing days are limited and he's extremely unlikely to be going on for another 3 years at the rate his is due to his condition. If securing a higher order draft pick to land badly needed KPP/KPF is on the table then look at the bigger picture

 

[Eastdog]

Will Macca be a late bloomer and be good for us in the long run? Thought I would put question out there. So Yes or No and if you want why you think or don't think he will be.

 

[gimp!]

What's wrong with the other thread?

 

[Eastdog]

Quite right Los Gimp one of the Mods can transfer it over. My mistake.

 

[AFDogs]

I think he has a career after Bulldogs, if that makes sense.

Somebody out there will like the work he's put in at the Dogs. I hope he gets the chance to coach a finals team before his time's up at the Dogs.

 

[Beasley]

No

 

[LukasTheGreat]

This thread will be locked quicker than a white mans house in Harlem.

 

[maddog37]

Compulsive thread starter disease.

 

[_M_16_]

Cooney's average stats this season were 10 kicks, 9 handballs ranked 8th overall on average and the argument that Cooney leaving would diminish the team further is subjective and some his games towards the end of this season were sub standard.

Cooney's playing days are limited and he's extremely unlikely to be going on for another 3 years at the rate his is due to his condition. If securing a higher order draft pick to land badly needed KPP/KPF is on the table then look at the bigger picture

Agree with this. Many people want the club to be harder and more bold. Yet the same people want to keep Cooney for sentimental reasons, because of what he did in the past and not by what he does now. What gives us more benefit, playing someone who will not be there in our next top four assault, who has a buggered knee, who despite a decent start to the season, feel away and was exposed by his opponent many times, and lacks a defensive side to the game. Or getting a draft pick upgrade from a third rounder, to a second rounder for a better player, or jumping up from 6th to 3rd and getting our long awaited KPF we are crying out for, both who could be a solid addition for the next 10 years? Over someone playing a poor to average 2-3 years?

We are crying out for KKP, and this is a once in a few years draft full of them, yet despite screaming at a club to get depth at either end, the same people wouldn't consider giving up Cooney for a good young key position player, when we need a few of them? Just doesn't make sense to me.

You either want us to build the list, and be bold and make tough calls for the long term benefit of the team. Or accepting where we are and taking passengers because we crush on a player. The Hawks did it, and look where they ended up. Losing West or Cross didn't hurt us in the end.

We have guys who can fill in and play Cooneys role, and either match him or play better. This isn't Cooney 2008 anymore. I am all for helping the club and getting better young players. The team comes first, not feel good stories. I hope the coaching team pulls the trigger on this one.

 

[Eastdog]

Compulsive thread starter disease.

Sorry probably should of looked at the other threads before I started one.

 

[Proffessor]

Cooney's average stats this season were 10 kicks, 9 handballs ranked 8th overall on average and the argument that Cooney leaving would diminish the team further is subjective and some his games towards the end of this season were sub standard.

Cooney's playing days are limited and he's extremely unlikely to be going on for another 3 years at the rate his is due to his condition. If securing a higher order draft pick to land badly needed KPP/KPF is on the table then look at the bigger picture

So he was ranked 8th on our list last year by your basic stats, with 19 possessions and you don't think losing him diminishes the team?
I would also suggest that his possessions have more impact than most of his team mates.

Trading club greats also damages our standing with our supporters, and with the general football community. It is not sentimental, it is real.
Looking at the bigger picture doesn't mean looking at the same view you already have on a bigger screen, it means considering wider issues such as the impact of such a move on the supporter base and perception of the club. Think of how many young supporters may have Cooney's poster on their wall, and how they will react to him being offered up for a pittance.

If we think we need to take this sort of action to get a decent KPF then we need to think again.

 

[timtamWB]

I agree with most of your post TT and agree that he needs time, but the question begs, just when has he had enough time. Everyone has a different opinion.
And if he is not the coach to take us forward, could he cause the club some serious damage? If he is the wrong bloke, as a few claim, he could cause massive damage to the clubs future prospects, in membership or sponsership dropoff, worse exposure to our brand due to being a permanent cellar dweller, a brisbane like player exodus.
And yet he just could be the right bloke, as you said, he needs time. But how much?

For what its worth i'm still not sure as i just don't know enough about the inner workings of the club or Maccas mind. I'm Hoping, but I admit i am just a little worried.
Just remember, there are many supporters outside of Bigfooty world that simply are not as well informed as we are on here, who will make decisions on membership etc based on what they read in the papers or hear on the radio. Or even Facebook.
And we all know what they are like.

While I see your point, he's gone on record to say that he needs one more draft and then he'll have the right players in place. So if we're not at the very least challenging for finals in 2016, that's enough time for me.

As for what his serious damage could be (and I know that these aren't necessarily your thoughts) the club's future prospects look bright, with potential once in a lifetime players like Bontempelli and a serious group of midfielders. We've gained members since he's been put in charge, and looking to increase on this. There's been more exposure of the Bulldogs in the media this year, and most of it til the end of the season has been positive. An exodus could happen, but losing Cooney, Jones and Tutt isn't an exodus really. Only Jones is a big loss, I'm a fan of Tutt's but not a big loss. So most of that possible damage is actually a positive for McCartney, or at least it is in my mind.

And as for the other supporters that make a decision on what they read in the papers or Facebook, we can't really do much about them whatsoever. And the majority of those supporters, yes even the idiots, are thinking that the fact that there's a rift between older players and the coach is stupid. Whether that's true or not remains to be seen, but I don't think it's impacting members much.

 

[grassman75]

So he was ranked 8th on our list last year by your basic stats, with 19 possessions and you don't think losing him diminishes the team?
I would also suggest that his possessions have more impact than most of his team mates.

Trading club greats also damages our standing with our supporters, and with the general football community. It is not sentimental, it is real.
Looking at the bigger picture doesn't mean looking at the same view you already have on a bigger screen, it means considering wider issues such as the impact of such a move on the supporter base and perception of the club. Think of how many young supporters may have Cooney's poster on their wall, and how they will react to him being offered up for a pittance.

If we think we need to take this sort of action to get a decent KPF then we need to think again.

Tell that to the millions of kids who had Buddy's number on their backs at Hawthorn. Didn't hurt them
Where we would do some damage PR wise would be trading Dahlhaus as so e have suggested. He has been extensively used by the club in marketing the kids clubhouse etc. now that would disappoint a lot of kids. Cooney while brilliant in his prime, has been down for a number of years now, we were cruelled by his knee injury. He isn't going to be there for the next tilt, so be brave and bold and cut him loose, freeing up cap space and giving opportunity to another player

 

[igloo dweller]

Firstly he would still be clearly in our best 22 and play regularly. I know that there are many people who are critical of Cooney on this forum but I think most show their ignorance by doing so. In the periods when the team played their best football this past season, Cooney typically played a major role.

i enjoy your posts.

adam is now, unfortunately, a very one way player. his ability to train and get miles into his legs due to his decrepit knee injury impacts this greatly, but he's always been an 'attack-first' midfielder. the thing is, when he was young and fit & firing, he was attack first, defense-be-damned - but he was getting 24 possessions, kicking 2 goals and blowing games out of the water. quarter after quarter, week after week. he was breathtaking.

but now, he's not that guy. he's not a consistent threat to hurt opposition, and goes missing for large parts of the game. . and he's a liability when the opposition have it (ability to run? / will to work?). he's not a great leader. in many of our close games this year, deep in the last Q at a centre bounce - adam wasn't call upon (will, griff, libba, boyd /wallis, macrae were). why?

i don't think that our man cooney's ability to find the footy is in question. at times, in bursts, he was devastating this year. as you say, when the team played well, he was usually playing well. there were also times when the team was poor and he was no-where to be seen. i except blokes like tutt, JJ to eb and flow with their team's performance, not 10yr veteran brownlow winners...

he's been a club great, one of my all-time favourites. i don't think cooney is playing for mccartney. and if the coach is staying, i'd happily entertain offers for cooney for the above reasons.

 

[Fossie 32]

Pity the Western Suburbs doesn't have better weather. Beams and Christensen into that young side will make a huge difference. Short of a couple of KPP

Macca's fault

 

[theAthenian]

the list management strategy followed by the club dictates cooney be traded
im not fussed either way
could clinch a key deal could be a mistake
however keeping cooney can only stifle list development
whereas trading him in for youth can potentially spurt development
i say trade

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

the list management strategy followed by the club dictates cooney be traded
im not fussed either way
could clinch a key deal could be a mistake
however keeping cooney can only stifle list development
whereas trading him in for youth can potentially spurt development
i say trade

I agree