Ryan Bastinac vs Lin Jong

[Dogsman16]

Really strange poll. By the basis of this poll it would be ok for me to start a Hawkins vs McCartin poll.

As for Jong v Bastinac I'd take Jong purely because our midfield needs someone with his breakaway speed and size. Needs to learn how to find more easy ball on the outside, get a bigger tank and improve his skills a little (the latter two I'm more hopeful he will be able to do) but he provides something different. However I'd be surprised if either of these 2 players became a key component of either side and I think both will spend a fair bit of time as the sub next season, but Jong I think will grab a best 22 spot.

 

[Heaps of fun]

Weird poll.

I really want to say Jong because I feel like he's just about to have a break out season but Bastinac has the runs on the board so you have to vote for him.

Couldn't really be two more diametrically opposed midfielders. Basti is slight and rarely but has excellent endurance and footy sense, positions himself well and has great decision making and neat whereas Jong's strengths lie in his burst speed and aggression at the contest and struggles with decision making and running out games .

 

[Aldo]

Couldn't really be two more diametrically opposed midfielders. Basti is slight and rarely but has excellent endurance and footy sense, positions himself well and has great decision making and neat whereas Jong's strengths lie in his burst speed and aggression at the contest and struggles with decision making and running out games .

Can we somehow fuse the two and let the dogs have him?

 

[Heaps of fun]

Can we somehow fuse the two and let the dogs have him?

Ewww, you can be The Western Bulldogs's.

 

[KillaKanga]

Can we somehow fuse the two and let the dogs have him?

Done, we we get Dalhaus or Bont

 

[Elite Master]

Bastinac has achieved more but to be honest he is quite vanilla in the grand scheme of things. Jong has his faults and has achieved less to date, but he does have more upside.

 

[Daz]

Jong has a lot more upside!

Jong's best case scenario is making it as a tagger. Battler.

 

[timtamWB]

Jong's best case scenario is making it as a tagger. Battler.

The guy hadn't even played AFL until he was 15, the improvement he's made is staggering. He has a far better best case scenario than that.

 

[The_Flying_Egg]

Jong's best case scenario is making it as a tagger. Battler.

His best go won't be tagging, his biggest strength is in close, winning the ball himself. He is great at stoppages and has the pace to run the ball out himself. Obviously its not the same level, but he is s clearance machine at VFL level. If he improves his disposal he will be a good AFL player

 

[TheHoneyBadger]

Jong's best case scenario is making it as a tagger. Battler.

Best case scenario for Jong is elite clearance midfielder - that sounds ridiculous, but we are talking best case scenario. Tagging is somewhere in the middle for him, it depends on the coaching he receives and how hard he works. All midfielders will need to have that defensive element to their game, though.

He's got all the attributes, he could be anything. He picked up the game later than most, and if you take his leg injury in 2013 into account, he's effectively only had 2 years in the AFL system.

For the purposes of this (rather strange) poll, I'd vote for Bastinac, as he has the runs on the board, but Jong's upside is enormous. Hopefully, we'll see plenty of him at AFL level next year.

 

[Heaps of fun]

How bad was Bastinac's year to deserve this comparison let alone almost be losing the poll? Oh wait I remember I watched it all, it was horrible. I think essentially he was pushed out by Dal Santo, Greenwood and Gibson leaving him to spend a lot of time in the forward line/bench/substitute vest. Hopefully he can take back his spot in the midfield with Levi's departure but I no longer view his ceiling as being as high as I thought it would be.
Jong looks an outside chance to make it as I don't see what coming a long way in a short amount of time has to do with how much further he can potentially take his game. Good luck to him though, wouldn't be the first player to carve out a career on a foundation of hard work.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Jong looks an outside chance to make it as I don't see what coming a long way in a short amount of time has to do with how much further he can potentially take his game.

I am surprised that it would need to be explained to any reasonably aware footy observer. Jong has had less games of footy in his pedigree, so many of the innate things like the intangibles and just the vision and understanding of the game he's still got a lot of scope for improvement in that regard compared to a player who's played since Auskick.

 

[Heaps of fun]

I am surprised that it would need to be explained to any reasonably aware footy observer. Jong has had less games of footy in his pedigree, so many of the innate things like the intangibles and just the vision and understanding of the game he's still got a lot of scope for improvement in that regard compared to a player who's played since Auskick.

I just don't buy into the "steep curve of improvement" concept in terms of discussing whether or not a player can make it in the VFL. Western Bulldogs can train up Jong to be a top notch VFL performer like North have done with Daw but then it's a whole new question if they have the talent to make it in the AFL.

 

[Daz]

Best case scenario for Jong is elite clearance midfielder - that sounds ridiculous, but we are talking best case scenario. Tagging is somewhere in the middle for him, it depends on the coaching he receives and how hard he works. All midfielders will need to have that defensive element to their game, though.

He's got all the attributes, he could be anything. He picked up the game later than most, and if you take his leg injury in 2013 into account, he's effectively only had 2 years in the AFL system.

For the purposes of this (rather strange) poll, I'd vote for Bastinac, as he has the runs on the board, but Jong's upside is enormous. Hopefully, we'll see plenty of him at AFL level next year.

All the physical attributes, maybe.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Best case scenario for Jong is elite clearance midfielder - that sounds ridiculous, but we are talking best case scenario. Tagging is somewhere in the middle for him, it depends on the coaching he receives and how hard he works. All midfielders will need to have that defensive element to their game, though.

As much as I am bullish on Jong's prospects given his rapid improvement, I can't agree with the bold. He just doesn't have the footy smarts or the ability to read the game to be an elite player, and unfortunately - given the late start to footy - by the time that builds up to a good level his best football will, physically, be behind him. He has the physical attributes of a Fyfe type but he doesn't - and in my opinion, will never have - the uncanny understanding of the game that you need to be in that upper echelon.

His ceiling for mine is a burst, B-grade midfielder who plays in spurts and offers some dynamism around the contest without the impact, nor the consistent hurt factor of a genuinely elite player in his role. His floor is a very solid VFL player who never makes the jump to AFL level. Tagging, as you said, is somewhere in the middle. I'm not yet ready to call where he'll end up fitting within that spectrum given his rapid improvement, but I think there is a much stronger ceiling to his abilities than a lot of Dogs supporters acknowledge.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

As much as I am bullish on Jong's prospects given his rapid improvement, I can't agree with the bold. He just doesn't have the footy smarts or the ability to read the game to be an elite player, and unfortunately - given the late start to footy - by the time that builds up to a good level his best football will, physically, be behind him. He has the physical attributes of a Fyfe type but he doesn't - and in my opinion, will never have - the uncanny understanding of the game that you need to be in that upper echelon.

His ceiling for mine is a burst, B-grade midfielder who plays in spurts and offers some dynamism around the contest without the impact, nor the consistent hurt factor of a genuinely elite player in his role. His floor is a very solid VFL player who never makes the jump to AFL level. Tagging, as you said, is somewhere in the middle. I'm not yet ready to call where he'll end up fitting within that spectrum given his rapid improvement, but I think there is a much stronger ceiling to his abilities than a lot of Dogs supporters acknowledge.

I think the point he's making is that Jong's potential to be is that it isn't athletic attributes that is holding him back, it's the mental attributes that are holding him back. Although you won't think that he will develop those mental attributes, if he does, then his skills (which can be taught) and physical attributes have the ceiling of a A+ player.

Whilst I agree that he is unlikely to develop the footy smarts, that isn't what Nathan is eluding to.

 

[TheHoneyBadger]

As much as I am bullish on Jong's prospects given his rapid improvement, I can't agree with the bold. He just doesn't have the footy smarts or the ability to read the game to be an elite player, and unfortunately - given the late start to footy - by the time that builds up to a good level his best football will, physically, be behind him. He has the physical attributes of a Fyfe type but he doesn't - and in my opinion, will never have - the uncanny understanding of the game that you need to be in that upper echelon.

His ceiling for mine is a burst, B-grade midfielder who plays in spurts and offers some dynamism around the contest without the impact, nor the consistent hurt factor of a genuinely elite player in his role. His floor is a very solid VFL player who never makes the jump to AFL level. Tagging, as you said, is somewhere in the middle. I'm not yet ready to call where he'll end up fitting within that spectrum given his rapid improvement, but I think there is a much stronger ceiling to his abilities than a lot of Dogs supporters acknowledge.

In regards to the first part of your post, just put threenewpadlocks' words into my mouth - that's essentially my reasoning behind the 'best case scenario' tag, as unlikely as it is.

It goes unacknowledged, but as a general rule, people are either very impressed, or they are not. Bontempelli has won the hearts of the Bulldogs supporters after just 16 games - in contrast, in this year alone I've had 3 arguments with Dogs supporters at our games because they tried to tell me that Liam Picken has never been of any use. Role players and late bloomers are rarely highlighted for their potential at an early age, and even beyond that point, barely acknowledged.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

I think the point he's making is that Jong's potential to be is that it isn't athletic attributes that is holding him back, it's the mental attributes that are holding him back. Although you won't think that he will develop those mental attributes, if he does, then his skills (which can be taught) and physical attributes have the ceiling of a A+ player.

Whilst I agree that he is unlikely to develop the footy smarts, that isn't what Nathan is eluding to.

I don't really agree with defining a ceiling in that way though. Is it right to call Christian Howard's ceiling 'elite' because if he didn't shit himself under pressure, had better decision making, worked harder and read the game better he'd have the attributes to make it big? I realise it's a loose example and I know the point you're making, but for me when you start saying, "If Player X could do this, they'd be elite," the concept of a ceiling becomes incredibly ill-defined and can be applied in more and more ridiculous situations to support any argument. By this logic I could go grab a random 190cm American athlete who runs a 17 beep, finishes a 20m sprint in 2.7 seconds and has excellent power but has never seen a football in his life and say, "His ceiling is an elite AFL player." It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to classify it in that way for mine.

 

[Aldo]

I don't really agree with defining a ceiling in that way though. Is it right to call Christian Howard's ceiling 'elite' because if he didn't shit himself under pressure, had better decision making, worked harder and read the game better he'd have the attributes to make it big? I realise it's a loose example and I know the point you're making, but for me when you start saying, "If Player X could do this, they'd be elite," the concept of a ceiling becomes incredibly ill-defined and can be applied in more and more ridiculous situations to support any argument. By this logic I could go grab a random 190cm American athlete who runs a 17 beep, finishes a 20m sprint in 2.7 seconds and has excellent power but has never seen a football in his life and say, "His ceiling is an elite AFL player." It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to classify it in that way for mine.

I understand your argument and it makes sense. However, the difference with Jong is that with the deficiencies and issues that are holding him back, we have seen huge improvements in. His kicking which was one of the biggest knocks on him has improved dramatically. His game sense has also improved, to the point where he is capable of racking up big numbers in the VFL. The next step is to translate that at a higher level.

The other thing is that some traits are harder to add to your game. Things like technical skills, understanding the game and making better decisions are changes that are capable of being implemented and taught, especially for people who are new to the game. Other things such as innate hardness and courage are harder to instil in a player as they are generally inherent and can't really be practiced. Those are things that Jong has. The traits he is lacking generally can be changed with practice, study and experience. That's why Jong can be distinguished and thus it is fair to put that higher ceiling on him.

 

[TheHoneyBadger]

I don't really agree with defining a ceiling in that way though. Is it right to call Christian Howard's ceiling 'elite' because if he didn't shit himself under pressure, had better decision making, worked harder and read the game better he'd have the attributes to make it big? I realise it's a loose example and I know the point you're making, but for me when you start saying, "If Player X could do this, they'd be elite," the concept of a ceiling becomes incredibly ill-defined and can be applied in more and more ridiculous situations to support any argument. By this logic I could go grab a random 190cm American athlete who runs a 17 beep, finishes a 20m sprint in 2.7 seconds and has excellent power but has never seen a football in his life and say, "His ceiling is an elite AFL player." It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to classify it in that way for mine.

While I agree that you can't reach a conclusion as to a player's 'ceiling' with consideration only for his suitable physical attributes, I think in this instance there's more at play - I agree with TNP's point, as I think it's applicable to Jong, but perhaps I should add that my original point was with some consideration for his rapid improvement with regards to that athleticism, and perhaps could be classified as an overly optimistic projection of his potential at AFL level given his sizable and constantly increasing contribution at VFL level (which I acknowledge is of a significantly lesser standard than AFL).

As with anything, time will tell. I don't see Jong progressing beyond playing a role at the stoppages, and the original 'elite' statement was always meant to be taken with a mountain of salt given how little we've seen of him at AFL level, but he could be capable of much more.

On that note, it'll be interesting to see how often he plays at AFL level in 2015, given the loss of two automatic selections (not to mention a few yards of pace) in the middle.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

I don't really agree with defining a ceiling in that way though. Is it right to call Christian Howard's ceiling 'elite' because if he didn't shit himself under pressure, had better decision making, worked harder and read the game better he'd have the attributes to make it big? I realise it's a loose example and I know the point you're making, but for me when you start saying, "If Player X could do this, they'd be elite," the concept of a ceiling becomes incredibly ill-defined and can be applied in more and more ridiculous situations to support any argument. By this logic I could go grab a random 190cm American athlete who runs a 17 beep, finishes a 20m sprint in 2.7 seconds and has excellent power but has never seen a football in his life and say, "His ceiling is an elite AFL player." It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to classify it in that way for mine.

If you divide a players ability into technical (skills), mental (vision, understanding and reading of the game etc.) and physical (height and athletic attributes), the thing that is holding him back the most is the mental side of the game. But on the flip-side, especially for him, is that he's got scope to improve that mental side of the game.

And as silly as it sounds, you could claim that player like that (who, incidentally, there is an exact person like that who tested for the AFL combine a year ago, a guy ranked about 150 in the world in decathlon - http://www.worldfootynews.com/article.php/20130412160202717) does have a higher ceiling. Just the chance of them reaching that ceiling is negligibly low, effectively 0%

In terms of technical, mental and physical skills, mental is the hardest to develop but has the highest potential, technical skills are in the middle, and you're limited about how much more physical and athletic a person is - you can't really develop that more assuming that they are already a athlete of some sort.

 

[Daz]

Bit ambitious to suggest he'll just be able to learn how to kick.

 

[Bulldog1954]

Strange thread, Bastinac is clearly ahead as he has shown he can play AFL football, even if he is soft as butter

 

[doggies ftw]

Bit ambitious to suggest he'll just be able to learn how to kick.

He's already improved this part of his game dramatically over the past year, and he's actually pretty sound technically it's just he doesn't always make the right decisions but he's getting better with every game he plays, when he's got his mind set on the goals he's very accurate because he doesn't really hVe to make a decision. One other good thing about picking up the game at 16 is he really started training at AFL level with a clean plate and didn't bring over any bad habits.

Very weird poll though and obviously Bastinac is way ahead at the moment, really expecting a breakout year for Jong next year though.

 

[Wargreymon90]

Weird thread