Does our game plan preclude us from developing a Fyfe/Mundy/Swan/pendlebury type player?

[joshuakburnett]

With a lot of talk about attracting/developing elite midfielders to the Hawks, it doesn't seem to be the way we play.

Would the Fyfe's etc do as well, and be dominant players in the Hawthorn structure, or would they be valuable additions, but appear less dominant due to the way we play?


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[Argy]

I suspect those players would be less conspicuous in a Hawks side than they are now. If Clarkson has done anything it is to imprint the idea of roles. And equality. A mate of mine (Blues supporter) commented when we went togther to a Hawks match that we seemed not to worry about who we kicked or hand balled to. Everyone was expected to honour his team responsibilities. He contrasted that to the blues whose first instinct seemed to be to ask who they were about to deliver the ball to. He wished his team played like ours.

 

[joshuakburnett]

Absolutely agree. Makes me wonder how well some of players would perform in other teams. We know how well Kennedy has done...

Bruest for mine could be anything. Phenomenal 1on1 player. He does everything that say a Robbie Grey does, but seems limited to Cameo roles.

At first I thought he was in and out of form like most small forwards, but he wasn't. He was in and out of the play, often making decoy leads etc to open up space.

Good for us I guess cause it lowers the pressure on increasing his wage, but I'd love to see the results of Breust getting 30+ touches a game!


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[James Colorado]

Absolutely agree. Makes me wonder how well some of players would perform in other teams. We know how well Kennedy has done...

Bruest for mine could be anything. Phenomenal 1on1 player. He does everything that say a Robbie Grey does, but seems limited to Cameo roles.

At first I thought he was in and out of form like most small forwards, but he wasn't. He was in and out of the play, often making decoy leads etc to open up space.

Good for us I guess cause it lowers the pressure on increasing his wage, but I'd love to see the results of Breust getting 30+ touches a game!


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I've been getting the impression that personality is one of, if not the, most important factors in recruiting players. There are plenty of superstars in the comp, but the guys who play in premierships are mostly those who are willing to sacrifice their own game when required. To play for Hawthorn, you need to show the recruiters that you are willing to be no more than the number on your back. Mitchell did it to take Crowley out of the 2013 GF, and to his credit, Buddy did it all 2013 season. Someone like Breust could be talked about as a Brownlow chance in another system, or he could be a multiple premiership player in ours.

Sometimes the personality doesn't mesh. We all know how good Buddy is, and I honestly think that his 100% game is better than anyone's, but in his reluctance to spend the rest of his career as a role player, in his desire to be "the man", he left for a system that allowed him to do so. In so doing he's both cost himself at least one premiership and exposed the mythology of the bloods culture.

 

[Furn2]

Interestingly we had 10 players average over 20 touches a game while Freo had 5 and the Pies had 4.

We also had 21 players average over 15 touches.

We certainly spread the load more than others.

 

[Lethality]

Well we already have Jordan Lewis whose output has been similar in 2014, but overall I think Clarkson relies on spreading the load so that the team is interdependent with no vital players for opposition sides to target.

 

[CD Xbow]

Well we already have Jordan Lewis whose output has been similar in 2014, but overall I think Clarkson relies on spreading the load so that the team is interdependent with no vital players for opposition sides to target.

There is also the physical element, keeping players fresh and able to run. This probably helps the mental aspect too, with better decision making. Ever try making decisions when you feel completely knackered? You can make shockers. All these things add up.

 

[MrFujiMoto]

I don't think those players would rack up the numbers with us.
1. Our game is about roles, not single stars
2. Most of our elite ball winners spend time in other positions around the ground
3. We rotate at least half the team through the middle whilst our A grade setup is elsewhere on the ground or on the pine

Can you imagine Swan sweeping half back as a defensive general? Or Fyfe for that matter. Pendlebury could probably fit our structures well though.

 

[QuietB]

Interestingly we had 10 players average over 20 touches a game while Freo had 5 and the Pies had 4.

We also had 21 players average over 15 touches.

We certainly spread the load more than others.

And this is exactly the answer. It is not that a Fyfe or Pendlebury would be/look any worse, it is just that the baseline behind them would be so much higher, so the gap would be less at Hawthorn.

Carlton is a good example, you could name half a dozen or so blokes who you would cringe to see the ball in their hands. Name a Hawk that makes you cringe when he is kicking it?

 

[whiteTiga2k]

A player in the mould of Pendles/Fyfe and Mundy, is basically a tall elite midfielder right? Wouldn't Jordan Lewis already be that for us? Or is he 3 CM too short?

Jordan has dominated games for us as a contested ball giant and an outlet player also. If say Fyfe, was in there as well... I'd say he would dominate also or instead of Jordan. We do have players that can rack up big numbers... yes we share it around a lot, but we also accumulate more ball than any other team. Just look at the GF, Jordan 37, Hodge 35, Mitchell 33, Gibbo 31. An awesome player like a Fyfe will only add to us.

I don't think we need a player like that, but it would definitely be a boost to have, and I believe that in our system they will strive too. Less pressure to perform might mean higher output.

 

[whiteTiga2k]

I don't think those players would rack up the numbers with us.
1. Our game is about roles, not single stars
2. Most of our elite ball winners spend time in other positions around the ground
3. We rotate at least half the team through the middle whilst our A grade setup is elsewhere on the ground or on the pine

Can you imagine Swan sweeping half back as a defensive general? Or Fyfe for that matter. Pendlebury could probably fit our structures well though.

Swan and Fyfe may not be back flankers, but they certainly can be High half forwards that can run mark and kick goals. I've seen Fyfe smash games from Half Forward line.

 

[Roddy]

Probably why we win flags, but not Brownlows/MVPs/heaps of players in the AA etc etc.

I'll take the flags thanks....

 

[cryptor]

Name a Hawk that makes you cringe when he is kicking it?

Sometimes Lake lol

 

[QuietB]

Sometimes Lake lol

And sometimes poppy. Point is Pendlebury looks so good because everyone else on that team is so far below him.

 

[driftyhunter]

Sometimes Lake lol

True true. But the big fella knows he can butcher it on the odd occasion and hand passes at every opportunity. He knows what he's good at...taking game saving marks and starring

 

[badgrill]

I've been getting the impression that personality is one of, if not the, most important factors in recruiting players. There are plenty of superstars in the comp, but the guys who play in premierships are mostly those who are willing to sacrifice their own game when required. To play for Hawthorn, you need to show the recruiters that you are willing to be no more than the number on your back. Mitchell did it to take Crowley out of the 2013 GF, and to his credit, Buddy did it all 2013 season. Someone like Breust could be talked about as a Brownlow chance in another system, or he could be a multiple premiership player in ours.

Sometimes the personality doesn't mesh. We all know how good Buddy is, and I honestly think that his 100% game is better than anyone's, but in his reluctance to spend the rest of his career as a role player, in his desire to be "the man", he left for a system that allowed him to do so. In so doing he's both cost himself at least one premiership and exposed the mythology of the bloods culture.

Buddy sacrificed his own game in 2008 GF.

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[Agent Smith]

Buddy sacrificed his own game in 2008 GF.

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Did he? He may have in 2013, but I didn't notice any particular difference to the way he played in 2008 as he did earlier that season. Certainly, the umps crucifying him hadn't changed in the Grannie from earlier in the season...

 

[Thorgils]

There is also the physical element, keeping players fresh and able to run. This probably helps the mental aspect too, with better decision making. Ever try making decisions when you feel completely knackered? You can make shockers. All these things add up.

I think its fair to point out we've targeted specific players who are elite runners. This combined with good decision making and disposal and you can understand why it's so difficult to shut down a dominate player at the time when another takes his place almost immediately (interestingly one of our biggest critiques was that we lacked outside run a couple of year ago). Now look at some of the guys we have playing:

Beep test:

Isaac Smith 14.6
Bradley Hill: 16.1
Billy Hartung 16.6

Jared Hardisty 15.4 (Can't wait to see this guy play!)

Mind you these are beep test from before they joined us, god knows what they could run now! Most of these players also ran elite repeat sprints, 20 metre sprints, and obviously 2km time trials.

I think our list management has been superb

 

[tige19]

I think its fair to point out we've targeted specific players who are elite runners. This combined with good decision making and disposal and you can understand why it's so difficult to shut down a dominate player at the time when another takes his place almost immediately (interestingly one of our biggest critiques was that we lacked outside run a couple of year ago). Now look at some of the guys we have playing:

Beep test:

Isaac Smith 14.6
Bradley Hill: 16.1
Billy Hartung 16.6

Jared Hardisty 15.4 (Can't wait to see this guy play!)

Mind you these are beep test from before they joined us, god knows what they could run now! Most of these players also ran elite repeat sprints, 20 metre sprints, and obviously 2km time trials.

I think our list management has been superb

Some of the best vision is of Isaac Smith running Hannebery into the ground at the MCG a few years back, Hannebery literally could not go with him.

 

[Argy]

Some of the best vision is of Isaac Smith running Hannebery into the ground at the MCG a few years back, Hannebery literally could not go with him.

I don't think we can take too much out of individual incidents like that. Not saying that it didn't happen as you say, just that a player's running load can vary a lot through a game and distort individual contests. Much like Cyril was outrun by Jetta in the 2012 GF.

 

[Thorgils]

Some of the best vision is of Isaac Smith running Hannebery into the ground at the MCG a few years back, Hannebery literally could not go with him.

Truly its a wonderful problem to have when they tag Smith completely out of the game and Hill absolutely dominates on the other wing. Clarkson said it best "replace a soldier with a soldier"

 

[badgrill]

Did he? He may have in 2013, but I didn't notice any particular difference to the way he played in 2008 as he did earlier that season. Certainly, the umps crucifying him hadn't changed in the Grannie from earlier in the season...

Clarko has come out and said Buddy pretty much drew Scarlett away from their defence which isolated Taylor, etc. This helped our other forwards at the time out.

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[BobHawk]

Hodge spent quite some time in the middle this season for the very reason we lacked younger blokes with the crash and bang ability hence we have recruited the bigger bodied mids during the draft. I think the most telling aspect of our GF win was the fact that we opened up with Hodge and Burgoyne both playing prominent roles in the midfield.

Hodge's role moving into the midfield during critical stages of games over the course of season should not be underestimated.

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

We share it around a lot more and rely less on any single player.

Swan I get because he accumulates like few others. We just don;t have a guy in our team that runs ahead of the ball like that.

Fyfe had a stellar season but is so hard to match up on because he can find the pill like a midfield, run like a wingman and mark like a key forward. He'd do the same for us.

What does Mundy do that Mitch doesn't? Different player and breaks the lines a bit, but doesn't get it any more surely?

 

[tige19]

I don't think we can take too much out of individual incidents like that. Not saying that it didn't happen as you say, just that a player's running load can vary a lot through a game and distort individual contests. Much like Cyril was outrun by Jetta in the 2012 GF.

This is true but the fact these 2 were running side by side with each other and as the game wore on Hannebery was noticeably lagging behind shows the gut running that Izzy does, truly remarkable athlete. I remember reading about how Robert Harvey went toe to toe with Crawford at Waverly one day and he said for the first time in his career he felt like he was run into the ground, Crawford in his prime was the leagues best runner and he would literally run his opponents to the point of total exhaustion. Little instances or highlights can often summaries a players strength and deficiencies, Crawf and Izzy have the ability to gut run both ways and that's what makes them special.