No Oppo Supporters CAS hands down guilty verdict - Players appealing - Dank shot - no opposition - (cont in pt.2)

[efcboy]

Senator Back and Di Natale had the most robust lines of questioning. Peris was a garbled mess sadly and McDevitt smelled blood when he talked to her, Madigan, well I can see why he has the word "mad" in his name.

A lot of what Back and Di Natale were going on was the general vibe of the whole thing, effectively that the punishment that these players have received was disproportionate, which is not the angle I would have taken, but if I did there were a few things that needed to be followed up on.

If we want to go on the ordeal that the players have been put through there are a few very important pieces. One that the joint investigation, legal, fine we've ascertained that, led to a culture of leaking and slander, where journalists were fed pieces of the information and were able to snipe at the club and players for the entire duration of the investigation. Ultimately it was the newspaper articles, many of which got the situation quite wrong, that made up McDevitt's knowledge base when he first started in the job and that is clear as day when you hear his initial pressers after moving forward with IN recommendations. Go back and listen he

Nor was he pressed on his appalling reasoning for changing his mind re: no significant fault, and actually no-one has properly pressed him on this. He came out guns blazing asking the players to "tell the truth and you could get a no significant fault reduction". There was an assumption there that the players had not told the truth, and yet ultimately their own testimony re: injections was the major evidence used to stitch them up. Having it both ways McDickhead.

Finally, and there was a lot more but this stuck out the most for me, when asked why TB4 was on the banned list, McDevitt said he would have to take that on notice and find out. He said a lot of things that really made his anti doping knowledge abysmally clear. He continued to talk about players with substances pumping through their bodies making them big and strong. Then asked about what the actual perfomance enhancement of TB4 he said recovery so you can "pump iron sooner". What a ****en joke this whole ****en thing is.

And now we have Hirdy in the paper saying that the players who got off had lied to ASADA. Here's an idea Hirdy, shut the **** up. I have backed you up on a lot of things and have put up with your truly abysmal personal PR campaign. I understand your angle, that the players who told the truth were the only ones found guilty and that it truly shit, but once again, you have chosen the absolute worst way to communicate this. If you are really going to start throwing grenades like these, which implies we have lying drug cheats playing for us while we are trying so desperately for a clean slate, then ****. right. off.

Strongly disagree with this - Madigan asked the most pertinent questions for mine and have listed some of these. Di Natale agreed went with a vibe angle whereas Bracks being an equine vet was focused on scientific details and agency procedures along with the forms etc. Bracks and Madigan asked the most relevant questions.

Hird is stating that self incrimination is the only reason 34 players are suspended.

 

[DonsRule]

So.


38 Consent forms
34 charged
2 denied injections
2 were not avalible for their original interview and no follow up interview was held. Players were not charged)

 

[Doss]

So.


38 Consent forms
34 charged
2 denied injections
2 were not avalible for their original interview and no follow up interview was held. Players were not charged)

It's the bolded that underlines the farcical nature of the whole process most succinctly.

I mean, really think about that.

 

[DonsRule]

It's the bolded that underlines the farcical nature of the whole process most succinctly.

I mean, really think about that.

Yep, thats just odd to me surely it wasn't much effort to have a follow up interview. More, well I guess so much for being up front and open with ASADA in the future.

 

[Mercurial89]

Does anyone really have an issue with Hird actually confirming that some players who did partake have lied? That type of information is the type of information that needs to be said.

 

[DonsRule]

Does anyone really have an issue with Hird actually confirming that some players who did partake have lied? That type of information is the type of information that needs to be said.

I don't have an issue with it, am probably surprised he said it though.

 

[2one2]

It's the bolded that underlines the farcical nature of the whole process most succinctly.

I mean, really think about that.

It rubbishes the argument that this is all about "a level playing field". Couple that with the lack of meaningful followup on the NRL players and it is clear that this is about being seen to take a scalp and that is it. It is completely reactionary to the public sentiment as well. They are no better than the AFL.

 

[2one2]

Does anyone really have an issue with Hird actually confirming that some players who did partake have lied? That type of information is the type of information that needs to be said.

I have an issue with it. It damages the club while we are trying to play with clean air. It creates a sense of uncertainty about players like Zaka and Courtenay Dempsey. If we have learnt anything from the last 3 years, it's that saying things that need to be said doesn't matter if the entire community is against you. Just you wait, the only thing that will come from that is people bleating that we still have not only drug cheats, but lying drug cheats on our team. No-one cares about the process any more, and that part of it will be brushed aside.

 

[efcboy]

So.


38 Consent forms
34 charged
2 denied injections
2 were not avalible for their original interview and no follow up interview was held. Players were not charged)

They also asked why 5 Cronulla players who refused to be interviewed have not received infractions. McDevitt responded we have asked the nrl the same question so hand balled this issue to nrl.

 

[efcboy]

I have an issue with it. It damages the club while we are trying to play with clean air. It creates a sense of uncertainty about players like Zaka and Courtenay Dempsey. If we have learnt anything from the last 3 years, it's that saying things that need to be said doesn't matter if the entire community is against you. Just you wait, the only thing that will come from that is people bleating that we still have not only drug cheats, but lying drug cheats on our team. No-one cares about the process any more, and that part of it will be brushed aside.

Hird would not have been referring to those players mentioned though. It's clear to me he is referring to Hal Hunter who during his case against club and afl has now even publicly admitted he had injections and doesn't know what they were. And ASADA have done nothing with Hal Hunter despite a public admission of sorts. Others have discussed this previously.

If you sat down with Hird and discussed this topic I'd think you would both agree that if justice and process were the driving forces we'd have some consistency in the way the affair was handled. Pointing out inconsistencies such as Hal Hunter and nrl players highlights how flawed this saga has been handled from the outset. This is the point behind Hird's comments.

 

[2one2]

Hird would not have been referring to those players mentioned though. It's clear to me he is referring to Hal Hunter who during his case against club and afl has now even publicly admitted he had injections and doesn't know what they were. And ASADA have done nothing with Hal Hunter despite a public admission of sorts. Others have discussed this previously.

If you sat down with Hird and discussed this topic I'd think you would both agree that if justice and process were the driving forces we'd have some consistency in the way the affair was handled. Pointing out inconsistencies such as Hal Hunter and nrl players highlights how flawed this saga has been handled from the outset. This is the point behind Hird's comments.

It doesn't matter who he was referring to, those will be the ones that fingers are pointed at. Hird has had 3 years to see what the media and the public do with that sort of comment and in my opinion he should know better. And I am not saying that I disagree. I agree with what he is saying now and I have agreed with a number of things he has said along the way. But his delivery has been truly putrid. He'll say something inflammatory at the wrong time, he'll smile at the wrong time. He'll say enough to get certain people furious and provide material for 6 articles before he says anything else. This is the latest of a long list of PR ****ups that he is responsible for. You don't need to defend Hird to me, I think he has been treated abysmally in this, but many of the things he has said and done since February 2013 has been completely wrong and have ultimately hurt the club.

These comments will not be interpreted as referring to Hal Hunter, and he will never clarify them, just leaving them for the hatemongers to interpret in their own way. Tell me in a month if they were worthwhile.

 

[efcboy]

It doesn't matter who he was referring to, those will be the ones that fingers are pointed at. Hird has had 3 years to see what the media and the public do with that sort of comment and in my opinion he should know better. And I am not saying that I disagree. I agree with what he is saying now and I have agreed with a number of things he has said along the way. But his delivery has been truly putrid. He'll say something inflammatory at the wrong time, he'll smile at the wrong time. He'll say enough to get certain people furious and provide material for 6 articles before he says anything else. This is the latest of a long list of PR ****ups that he is responsible for. You don't need to defend Hird to me, I think he has been treated abysmally in this, but many of the things he has said and done since February 2013 has been completely wrong and have ultimately hurt the club.

These comments will not be interpreted as referring to Hal Hunter, and he will never clarify them, just leaving them for the hatemongers to interpret in their own way. Tell me in a month if they were worthwhile.

What you need to realise though is Hird is a victim of media manipulation. If he says nothing he is criticised for not coming out with the truth. When he does say something they take him out of context and bend/distort what he says or place an opinion off it to make it look bad.

Hird has publicly apologised on a number of occasions. Yet we still have journalists declaring to the masses that Hird needs to apologise and saying he has never apologised. The media have chosen a side and in general aren't interested in printing the truth - they print what suits their agenda and gets clicks.

 

[2one2]

What you need to realise though is Hird is a victim of media manipulation. If he says nothing he is criticised for not coming out with the truth. When he does say something they take him out of context and bend/distort what he says or place an opinion off it to make it look bad.

Hird has publicly apologised on a number of occasions. Yet we still have journalists declaring to the masses that Hird needs to apologise and saying he has never apologised. The media have chosen a side and in general aren't interested in printing the truth - they print what suits their agenda and gets clicks.

I know that. You know that. Hird knows that. With that knowledge, he now needs to think about everything he says on record and how that is going to be twisted.

 

[60sbomber]

When discussing this with lawyers involved they have said to me we cannot appeal to challenge the judges interpretation of the law (ie the level of comfortable satisfaction). This is not an error of law was my understanding.

The problem with the principle of comfortable satisfaction is it is vague. In the senates hearing McDevitt described it as revolving between the balance of probabilities (which he said was 70%) and beyond reasonable doubt (which he placed at 97-98%). He theorised that the afl tribunal judged closer to 97-98% whereas CAS were closer to 70%.

Now to me this is fundamentally flawed to allow inconsistencies - these are not my numbers but McDevitts. He states that there is a possible degree of difference of up to 28% between judges who operate within these rules. You could have a different result each time a case is heard with these inconsistencies.

I also have an issue that someone's livelihood can be stripped based on something close to 70% confidence. I could cop up to a 3 month penalty using 70% or thereabouts but if you are talking about a 2 year penalty that could ruin someone's career then the probability should be raised closer to 97%.

Isn't this where the Brigishaw standard comes in?
My understanding of the Briginshaw ruling was that it established that the more serious the consequences of guilt, the nearer the standard of "comfortable saisfaction" should be to "beyond reasonable doubt".
McDevitt appears to be saying that CAS put "comfortable satisfaction" at close to "balance of probabilities" in this case, thereby either ignoring the Briginshaw standard, or alternatively, it thought the consequences of guilt were relatively trivial.

 

[Beerfish]

Asks McDevitt to confirm that not all 34 players received the supplement. Astonishingly McDevitt confirms that this was his understanding.

I found this astonishing too at first. After considering it though it makes no difference to him to say that. The 34 are 1 as far as they're concerned and the burden of proof modifier they received meant they could get convictions for all regardless.

 

[efcboy]

I know that. You know that. Hird knows that. With that knowledge, he now needs to think about everything he says on record and how that is going to be twisted.

Fair enough but it makes it pretty tough to say anything under those circumstances

 

[IHurley]

It rubbishes the argument that this is all about "a level playing field". Couple that with the lack of meaningful followup on the NRL players and it is clear that this is about being seen to take a scalp and that is it. It is completely reactionary to the public sentiment as well. They are no better than the AFL.

What it proves is that nobody at ASADA believed for a second that any of the players were guilty. That is on McDevitt and McDevitt alone.

 

[Beerfish]

Fair enough but it makes it pretty tough to say anything under those circumstances

I think that's the point.

 

[efcboy]

Isn't this where the Brigishaw standard comes in?
My understanding of the Briginshaw ruling was that it established that the more serious the consequences of guilt, the nearer the standard of "comfortable saisfaction" should be to "beyond reasonable doubt".
McDevitt appears to be saying that CAS put "comfortable satisfaction" at close to "balance of probabilities" in this case, thereby either ignoring the Briginshaw standard, or alternatively, it thought the consequences of guilt were relatively trivial.

Agreed - even applying the briginshaw standard/ruling (which I doubt they have) is vague in a matter that can ruin careers and livelihoods.

Madigan raised a point that Australian law had some policy introduced prior to unesco to protect the individuals livelihoods and this was trumped by CAS law in this instance. It was an interesting point that would require further examination. Madigan also made the point to McDevitt that ASADA should have used the Australian system in place (afl anti doping appeals tribunal) prior to passing the buck to an international organisation such as WADA. I agree with Madigan that ASADA did not make enough attempts to resolve this locally prior to going to CAS.

 

[efcboy]

I think that's the point.

Yes which goes make to my original notion of he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

 

[Beerfish]

Yes which goes make to my original notion of he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

I'd prefer he be damned if he doesn't.

 

[Doss]

Yes which goes make to my original notion of he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

Not quite in this particular case. I think with relation to what 2one2 was saying, he's better off just not saying anything at all. There's really nothing to be gained.

 

[efcboy]

Not quite in this particular case. I think with relation to what 2one2 was saying, he's better off just not saying anything at all. There's really nothing to be gained.

It's a debatable point. Hird feels he and mainly the players have suffered a miscarriage of justice. It's pretty hard to remain silent in that circumstance.

I wish he had of spoken up earlier and not later. But I understand the afl and club both gagged him as much as possible throughout most of the saga. The damage is done now and it's hard for him to make claims now but I can sympathize/empathize the position he is in. I'm not going to criticise him for stating any truth or facts. In the beginning all we ever wanted was the truth and for true justice to take place following due process.

 

[Gruffles]

You can? Why?

I think they're trying to discreetly tell you that you have fat feet.

Or you walk more like an elephant then a cat?

I don't know... I'm just trying to get my head around what the hell is going on in this thread... there seems to be a lot of people yelling at brick walls.

 

[Mr Mojo Risin]

Not quite in this particular case. I think with relation to what 2one2 was saying, he's better off just not saying anything at all. There's really nothing to be gained.

It all depends on if he was asked a direct question. If he was then no response is worse.