Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[35Daicos]

In Round 10 of 1898, Fitzroy v. St. Kilda, match reports (The Age, The Argus, The Australasian) state that St. Kilda played with only 18 players against the 20 of Fitzroy due to selected players failing to appear, however 20 players are credited with playing.

The 9 mentioned in match reports are:
Aylwin, Harry
Blake, Mick
Blake, Tom
Dando, Johnny
Hall, Ted
Jones, Ernie
Matthews, Bill
Smith, Howard
Stewart, Andy

The 11 credited as playing but not mentioned are:
Fogarty, Tom
Gibson, Dave
Hogan, Joe
McNamara, Tom
Morehouse, Joe
Phillips, Syd
Stewart, George
Stewart, Walter
Warne, Jim
Whitelaw, Fred
Woodhouse, Bill

Presumably two of this list did not actually play - but clues as to the non-attendees are scant. (I've also looked at Leader, Herald, Fitzroy City Press, Table Talk) As A. Stewart is mentioned with an initial this suggests there were likely to be multiple Stewarts on the field. Neither Fogarty or Gibson played the next week but this may be purely coincidental.

This is from The Prahran Telegraph (Sat 23 July 1898):-

This time they had an additional reason to plead for the defeat in that only 18 men took the field at the start of the game.

The Saints put their full 20 into the field in the last portion of the game, and the presence of the extra men had a marked difference on the game.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/144638898

I've certainly not seen it mentioned in any of the other papers that they eventually did have a full team of 20 players.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

This is from The Prahran Telegraph (Sat 23 July 1898):-

This time they had an additional reason to plead for the defeat in that only 18 men took the field at the start of the game.
The Saints put their full 20 into the field in the last portion of the game, and the presence of the extra men had a marked difference on the game.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/144638898

I've certainly not seen it mentioned in any of the other papers that they eventually did have a full team of 20 players.

Thanks 35Daicos - seems like the 20 may be correct after all. Have added to my notes for the match

 

[rbartlett]

Richmond's 1923 Reserves match scores/goalkickers/best players now online for first time
http://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=1923+Reserves

But slight problem. Can't for the life of me find the below:
Semi Final - Sept 27 vs Geelong - Missing Richmond goalkickers
Rd 16 - Sept 1 vs Geelong - Missing Richmond goalkickers
Rd 14 - Aug 11 vs Coll - Missing Richmond best players
Rd 10 - July 14 vs Melb - Missing Richmond goalkickers and best players
Rd 6 - June 9 vs Essendon - Missing Richmond best players

 

[35Daicos]

Richmond's 1923 Reserves match scores/goalkickers/best players now online for first time
http://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=1923+Reserves

But slight problem. Can't for the life of me find the below:
Semi Final - Sept 27 vs Geelong - Missing Richmond goalkickers
Barnes (2), Hughes, Owens and Osmond.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1993836

Rd 16 - Sept 1 vs Geelong - Missing Richmond goalkickers
Rd 14 - Aug 11 vs Coll - Missing Richmond best players
Rd 10 - July 14 vs Melb - Missing Richmond goalkickers and best players
Goalkickers are here, but almost impossible to read. Hughes (2) ?.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/184809910/20629430

This says Barnes (4) and Pollock (3).
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/184809953/20629441

Rd 6 - June 9 vs Essendon - Missing Richmond best players
This probably doesn't count as "official", but the Wednesday Sporting Globe says "Owens, Jobson, Birtles and Fraser were the outstanding players in the match against Essendon."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/184808692/20629341

You have Owens with 8 goals (The Age looks like it says 8), this article says he managed 3. As Richmond scored 12 goals it needs to be 3 to add up correctly.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Rd 10 - July 14 vs Melb -
Goalkickers are here, but almost impossible to read. Hughes (2) ?.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/184809910/20629430

This says Barnes (4) and Pollock (3).
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/184809953/20629441

Did a bit of image enhancement on the first article and it reads:
Barnes (4), Pollock (3), C. Hughes (2), Lynch (2), Doran - adds up to the 12 goals scored and all are names of players from the 1923 season...

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Richmond's 1923 Reserves match scores/goalkickers/best players now online for first time
http://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=1923+Reserves

But slight problem. Can't for the life of me find the below:
Rd 16 - Sept 1 vs Geelong - Missing Richmond goalkickers

From The Argus on 3rd Sept http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article1993326 (second page of article)
Goalkickers were Birtles (2), Lynch, Threffal and Barnes.

 

[rbartlett]

From The Argus on 3rd Sept http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article1993326 (second page of article)
Goalkickers were Birtles (2), Lynch, Threffal and Barnes.

Thanks WhiteHartLane23, always good to have a second set of eyes

 

[rbartlett]

Thanks 35Daicos for your set of eyes on this.
All that's missing from 1923 Reserves page is
Rd 14 - Aug 11 vs Coll - Missing Richmond best players
Rd 10 - July 14 vs Melb - Missing Richmond best players

 

[rbartlett]

Couple of other stats missing
1919 Reserves
http://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=1919+Reserves
PM2 vs Hawthorn VFA - April 12 - missing goalkickers and best players and scores
PM3 vs vs Richmond VFL - April 19 - missing goalkickers and best players and scores
PM5 vs Richmond VFL - June 21 - missing goalkickers and best players and scores
Rd 13 vs Fitz Jnrs - Aug 16 - missing goalkickers and best players

1920 Reserves
http://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=1920+Reserves
PM1 vs Chilwell - Oct 30 - missing goalkickers and best players and scores

1921 Reserves
http://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=1921+Reserves
Rd 13 - vs Coburg - Aug 6 - missing goalkickers and best players and scores

1922 Reserves
http://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=1922+Reserves
Rd 1 - vs Coll- May 6 - missing goalkickers
Rd 9 vs StKilda - July 1 - missing goalkickers
Rd 10 vs Collingwood - July 15 - missing goalkickers
Rd 4 vs Geelong, Rd 5 vs Essendon, Rd 7 vs Leopold, Rd 11 vs Melb - all missing secondary goalkickers (i have main goalkicker of each match)

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Couple of other stats missing
1919 Reserves
http://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=1919+Reserves
Rd 13 vs Fitz Jnrs - Aug 16 - missing goalkickers and best players

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article202440558
Rush, Page, Adams etc..

 

[rbartlett]

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article202440558
Rush, Page, Adams etc..

Thanks WHL. I've obviously missed some obvious articles. My eyes go cross eyed when trying to do 90 years of Reserve scores.
Interestingly, Richmond kicked 3 goals that day, - we know Carroll kicked 2, but didnt say who kicked the other. Grr

 

[35Daicos]

Couple of other stats missing

1921 Reserves
http://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=1921+Reserves
Rd 13 - vs Coburg - Aug 6 - missing goalkickers and best players and scores

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206711644

Richmond's best players are here, not the goalkickers. I think it says Coburg won by 5 points, so the score looks to be 6.7 to 5.8.

 

[rbartlett]

Gentlemen I need your thoughts.
Has Bill Burns incorrectly been credited with the Rd 7 1912 game for Richmond vs Carlton, played on June 3 1912.
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1912/031419120603.html

The Age (4 June 1912) 'Ohlson, who had stood down for 2 Saturdays owing to an injury, replacing Burns and leading the team'
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197373202

The Australian (4 June 1912) 'Ohlson replaced Burns'
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11680921

Both The Age and The Australian list Bennie as one of the club's best players that day, and he isn't mentioned on AFL Tables in that game

Am I missing something, or should that be now altered to reflect Bennie.

- Rhett.

 

[35Daicos]

Gentlemen I need your thoughts.
Has Bill Burns incorrectly been credited with the Rd 7 1912 game for Richmond vs Carlton, played on June 3 1912.
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1912/031419120603.html

The Age (4 June 1912) 'Ohlson, who had stood down for 2 Saturdays owing to an injury, replacing Burns and leading the team'
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197373202

The Australian (4 June 1912) 'Ohlson replaced Burns'
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11680921

Both The Age and The Australian list Bennie as one of the club's best players that day, and he isn't mentioned on AFL Tables in that game

Am I missing something, or should that be now altered to reflect Bennie.

- Rhett.

It looks pretty likely. The Football Record from the following week (Rd. 8 page 30) says "Richmond find places this afternoon for Smith (a clever wing man from Leopold), and Pattinson (an ex-Fitzroy full back). Reeves, Jones and McCashney are in the team again. Gibson, Love, Kenny, Bowden and Bennie are having a spell."

This obviously suggests Bennie did play in rd. 7. Yet AFL Tables has him in the team for rd. 8:- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1912/111419120608.html

The rd. 9 Football Record says on page 11 "Not many of Richmond's players are to be commended on their efforts against Melbourne. James, Herbert, Oliver and Burns were the exceptions. The last-named showed all his old dash, but was poorly backed up by the rest of the team."

It certainly looks like Burns played in rd. 8 according to the Football Record, but he wasn't supposed to be in the team.

The rd. 9 Football Record also says on page 31 "Richmond find places to-day for Ho-gan (from Trafalgar), Ellingsen (Gee-long junior), Woodhead, Love and Ben-nie. Maguire, Ohlsen, Price, Pattin-son and Danks are out." http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1912/091419120615.html
Bennie was meant to have been in the rd. 8 team, yet he's named as one of the additions to the side for rd. 9.

 

[35Daicos]

Gentlemen I need your thoughts.
Has Bill Burns incorrectly been credited with the Rd 7 1912 game for Richmond vs Carlton, played on June 3 1912.
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1912/031419120603.html

The Age (4 June 1912) 'Ohlson, who had stood down for 2 Saturdays owing to an injury, replacing Burns and leading the team'
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197373202

The Australian (4 June 1912) 'Ohlson replaced Burns'
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11680921

Both The Age and The Australian list Bennie as one of the club's best players that day, and he isn't mentioned on AFL Tables in that game

Am I missing something, or should that be now altered to reflect Bennie.

- Rhett.

The Argus (4 June 1912) says "Ohlsen replaced Burns in the Richmond eighteen" http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11680921
Bennie also gets a mention in the article "Bennie, (who is a very clever little player),"

There seems to be no doubt that Bennie played and Burns didn't in rd. 7.

The Argus (10 June 1912) has Burns going in to the team and Bennie out of it for the rd. 8 game:-

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11682573/383338
Burns gets several mentions so it seems he played in rd. 8 instead of Bennie.

 

[rbartlett]

The Argus (4 June 1912) says "Ohlsen replaced Burns in the Richmond eighteen" http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11680921
Bennie also gets a mention in the article "Bennie, (who is a very clever little player),"

There seems to be no doubt that Bennie played and Burns didn't in rd. 7.

Right, so what we are suggestion is
Rd 7 omit Burns and add Bennie
Rd 8 omit Bennie and add Burns

Correct?

 

[35Daicos]

Right, so what we are suggestion is
Rd 7 omit Burns and add Bennie
Rd 8 omit Bennie and add Burns

Correct?

Yes, I've just added a bit to my last post. It looks very clear cut.

Edit:- The Argus had Bennie back in the team for rd. 9 and Burns was also mentioned as playing that week (which agrees with the records), so hopefully it's just the other two games where they have it wrong:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11684375/383545

 

[rbartlett]

Yes, I've just added a bit to my last post. It looks very clear cut.

Okay. Ill send an email to Stephen Rodgers for him to look over and confirm from their end.

 

[rbartlett]

Okay. Ill send an email to Stephen Rodgers for him to look over and confirm from their end.

Stephen Rodgers has emailed back and agreed with the change.
Bennie now credited for Rd 7 1912 instead of Burns
Burns now credited for Rd 8 1912 instead of Bennie
I'll alert AFLTables

 

[35Daicos]

Stephen Rodgers has emailed back and agreed with the change.
Bennie now credited for Rd 7 1912 instead of Burns
Burns now credited for Rd 8 1912 instead of Bennie
I'll alert AFLTables

That was certainly quick! At least it doesn't involve too much shuffling around of players' details.

australianfootball If you haven't been following these last few posts related to 1912 Richmond team lineups, you may wish to have a read.

 

[rbartlett]

Rodgers mentioned in passing on email that he think he has solved the Norman Brookes query.
So I assume he will contact whoever raised that with him and they can inform the board.

 

[35Daicos]

The official records have Gordon Dangerfield in the round 6 1912 St Kilda team that played Carlton, but it looks extremely likely that he didn't play, and that Alex McKenzie took his place. http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1912/031519120601.html

Rounds 6 & 7 were played on the Saturday 1 June and Monday 3 June, respectively. The Argus (Mon 3 June 1912) said "St. Kilda were handicapped on their back lines owing to Hattam and Dangerfield being down with influenza. They played McKenzie, and Lynch from Trentham." http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11680661

The Australasian (8 June) says of the rd. 6 game "St. Kilda, however, were not so happily circumstanced, as two of their cracks in Dangerfield and Hattam had succumbed to influenza." http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/143332928

The Age (Tues 4 June) says of the rd. 7 game "and Hattam, Dangerfield, Hart, Baird, Best and Anderson (the last two appearing for the first time) taking the places of Morrisey, Nehill (both hurt), Jory, Cave, Martin and McKenzie with St. Kilda." http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197373231/18569107

The Argus (Friday 7 June) says (referring to the rd. 8 game) "and Dangerfield, Morrissey and Nehill have recovered and will be available to-morrow."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11681739

This looks pretty definite to me, so unless someone can find fault with it, I'll send an email to the 'authorities' sometime over the next few days. With a bit of luck I'll get a response as quick as Rhett did!

 

[the croucher]

The official records have Gordon Dangerfield in the round 6 1912 St Kilda team that played Carlton, but it looks extremely likely that he didn't play, and that Alex McKenzie took his place. http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1912/031519120601.html

Rounds 6 & 7 were played on the Saturday 1 June and Monday 3 June, respectively. The Argus (Mon 3 June 1912) said "St. Kilda were handicapped on their back lines owing to Hattam and Dangerfield being down with influenza. They played McKenzie, and Lynch from Trentham." http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11680661

The Australasian (8 June) says of the rd. 6 game "St. Kilda, however, were not so happily circumstanced, as two of their cracks in Dangerfield and Hattam had succumbed to influenza." http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/143332928

The Age (Tues 4 June) says of the rd. 7 game "and Hattam, Dangerfield, Hart, Baird, Best and Anderson (the last two appearing for the first time) taking the places of Morrisey, Nehill (both hurt), Jory, Cave, Martin and McKenzie with St. Kilda." http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197373231/18569107

The Argus (Friday 7 June) says (referring to the rd. 8 game) "and Dangerfield, Morrissey and Nehill have recovered and will be available to-morrow."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11681739

This looks pretty definite to me, so unless someone can find fault with it, I'll send an email to the 'authorities' sometime over the next few days. With a bit of luck I'll get a response as quick as Rhett did!

Well done. Another one found.
The list of amendments is getting longer than an all night Senate sitting !

 

[rbartlett]

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206711644

Richmond's best players are here, not the goalkickers. I think it says Coburg won by 5 points, so the score looks to be 6.7 to 5.8.

Thanks for that. That season is now complete with the scores.

 

[rbartlett]

Well done. Another one found.
The list of amendments is getting longer than an all night Senate sitting !

I wonder if 1912 is another year where there might be more errors. That's three this board has found now in the last 48 hours