Opinion Butcher

[El_Scorcho]

If it was just a question of development, another club would take the punt on a guy who is essentailly young for a tall guy and think they can turn him around if they think he has the basic tools. We hung onto Toby Thurstans for 4 years befoe he played a single game and he played 100 games including a premiership. Hawthorn took a delisted one game Stephen Gilham as a rookie and turned him into a premiership player. Clubs will take a chance where they see something, especially in a 197cm key forward.

How could we have developed him differently other than give him more games? If the coaches didn't think he deserved games should he have been given them anyway? He was played as the go to forward at sanfl level. He was given runs in the ruck and defence to develop his all round game.

There's not much point retaining a guy on a list if you've shown you're not prepared to pick him, so why wouldn't you cut him and give him a chance somewhee else?

Guys who are 25+ and are delisted from bad football teams don't get second chances at AFL level.

I absolutely agree that there's no point retaining him if we weren't prepared to pick him. My problem is that we've retained a coach who doesn't care about structure going forward and who has made us the worst team going forward in the league. As others have said, we kick goals due to individual brilliance or on the counter, we very rarely kick goals because we've set up well and made space for our forwards.

 

[El_Scorcho]

And most of the guys on Scorcho's list play around the ball and those guys are always likely to get more opportunities as these are the bulk of positions on the field. Half (four) of that group only played around 30 games anyway and of those, three are delisted just like Butch.

At some point you have to concede the brick wall is still standing but there's a lot of blood coming from your forehead.

We've played too short in the forwardline basically the entire time Hinkley has had the reins, and I would have written roughly 1,000,000 words on this board calling for us to bring in an extra tall. Mainly Butcher, but Howard, Shaw and Harvey as well.

We'd have been a better football team if we pumped games into our blue chip top 10 pick KPF instead of rookie list anonymous midfielders and flankers. That's my entire argument in a nutshell. We wasted games on bad footballers with low ceilings while someone who could have actually made a difference to our football team going forward withered on the vine.

 

[jdeezy]

Sources, aka me, say the John 'the' Butcher was at Morphettville last night with the lads. Sources, aka me, also report that he has a mate in his group that decided to excitedly tell us "this guy plays AFL" and pointed to someone else in the group that I've never seen in my life. Sources, aka me, also report that said mate was kind of a dickhead.

Reports that The Future lined up the betting counter from straight in front but missed it by 10 metres are not confirmed, however.

 

[TeeKray]

Imagine if Jasper Pittard had been sent back to the Magpies every time he played a bad game - he would have been dropped 500 times and delisted in 2012.

Not everyone is Chad Wingard or Ollie Wines. Some players need exposure at AFL level to actually improve their games and eventually become AFL level players. And some players not only need that but they need coaches who believe in them and back them in so they can focus on succeeding rather than being s**t scared of failure, knowing they are only ever one bad game away from being sent back to the reserves for another month.

We failed Butch. Point blank. Anyone who says otherwise is utterly kidding themselves.

 

[Janus]

Anyone who thinks that this spud was the answer is the one who is kidding themselves. Using phrases like "blue chip" on a guy masquerading as a player when he can't even be relied on to kick a simple goal...I can't even.

You invested so much time in him and his career, and now the dream is over. But instead of accepting that, people are still crying as if he was some unstoppable force at SANFL level and he was hard done by because he wasn't "given a go".

He never earned a go. Ever. In his entire career. Didn't want to put in the hard yards, didn't want to work on his kicking until the last year of his contract. Whenever there was an opening in the forward line, you can bet your bottom dollar that he wouldn't put up his hand with a great consistent performance over a couple of weeks to prove he had the resilience needed to make it at elite level. Nope, he'd put in one decent shift, think that was enough to get selected and then drop his bundle the next week when he wasn't. He never, ever made it impossible for him not to be selected.

Us needing a decent key forward doesn't mean we should have played this spud more. Marshall will be twenty times the player the deservedly delisted hack was. The only thing I'm angry about is the fact that we wasted two top ten picks on both him and Moore.

 

[Peck]

Maybe we didn't give Butcher the absolute 100% chance to make it, but he certainly didn't give it to himself either.

In the end we have a list of 40 players, and simply don't have the resources to constantly be trying to make a player improve themselves.

Suggesting that he should have had a gold pass makes no sense either. His game against North Melbourne in 2014 was far worse than O'Sheas against Carlton this year - he had 10 disposals and 5 clangers! As a forward ffs! - you simply can't someone playing like that in the side, to the detriment of the entire team. We were a top 4 team that year without him, I truly don't think we would have been if he'd played a lot more games.

My guess is he was finished after that game, and only kept on in case of emergency.

Honestly blaming Hinkley makes little sense. He came here in 2013 and tried to instill an actual work ethic in a playing group that had none. Giving a gold pass to a player who wasn't coachable and didn't defend at the expense of that "work hard, defend harder" message would have been a disaster.

Had we been an established side, then perhaps he would have been given the opportunity, but we weren't, so he wasn't.

We absolutely ****ed him over by keeping him at Port Adelaide after 2013/2014, as he could have had a chance elsewhere. Whether that option was the best for Port Adelaide is a different question, and it's a brutally competitive business.

 

[Dylan8]

I'm on the "we ****ed it" side but an equally major contributing factor to him not making it was the injuries which impacted his game and held him back from a consistent run at a crucial age.

Honestly blaming Hinkley makes little sense. He came here in 2013 and tried to instill an actual work ethic in a playing group that had none. Giving a gold pass to a player who wasn't coachable and didn't defend at the expense of that "work hard, defend harder" message would have been a disaster.

There have been a litany of gold passes under Hinkley.

 

[Peck]

There have been a litany of gold passes under Hinkley.

Not for players who don't work hard or defend. And especially not in 2013/2014.

 

[Pappagallo]

I'm on the "we stuffed it" side but an equally major contributing factor to him not making it was the injuries which impacted his game and held him back from a consistent run at a crucial age.


There have been a litany of gold passes under Hinkley.

I love how Butcher is always held to the absolute highest standards and doesn't warrant selection unless he's kicking bags of 8 every week. Meanwhile we're gifting games to guys because they run good.

"So what about O'Shea? Gosh he just runs all day"

"Yeah but he doesn't football very well"

"He'll be right, running beats football. Let's give him 80 games to work the football out"

"OK then, what about Neade?"

"F@#k me, didn't I just say running beats football?!"

 

[PJ Power]

Anyone who thinks that this spud was the answer is the one who is kidding themselves. Using phrases like "blue chip" on a guy masquerading as a player when he can't even be relied on to kick a simple goal...I can't even.

You invested so much time in him and his career, and now the dream is over. But instead of accepting that, people are still crying as if he was some unstoppable force at SANFL level and he was hard done by because he wasn't "given a go".

He never earned a go. Ever. In his entire career. Didn't want to put in the hard yards, didn't want to work on his kicking until the last year of his contract. Whenever there was an opening in the forward line, you can bet your bottom dollar that he wouldn't put up his hand with a great consistent performance over a couple of weeks to prove he had the resilience needed to make it at elite level. Nope, he'd put in one decent shift, think that was enough to get selected and then drop his bundle the next week when he wasn't. He never, ever made it impossible for him not to be selected.

Us needing a decent key forward doesn't mean we should have played this spud more. Marshall will be twenty times the player the deservedly delisted hack was. The only thing I'm angry about is the fact that we wasted two top ten picks on both him and Moore.

This is a tasteless post. For a guy who often posts blind optimism about our club, this is appallingly negative. Butcher might not have made it and there are different views as to why. To call him a spud is poor form. I trust you'll call Hinkley the same if we miss out on finals a third time on his watch.

 

[Tibbs]

I love how Butcher is always held to the absolute highest standards and doesn't warrant selection unless he's kicking bags of 8 every week. Meanwhile we're gifting games to guys because they run good.

"So what about O'Shea? Gosh he just runs all day"

"Yeah but he doesn't football very well"

"He'll be right, running beats football. Let's give him 80 games to work the football out"

"OK then, what about Neade?"

"F@#k me, didn't I just say running beats football?!"

If Butcher was a 190cm half back flanker that could actually kick a ball, he would have got more games than as a 197cm full forward that struggled to kick a goal from 10m out!

 

[Peck]

This is a tasteless post. For a guy who often posts blind optimism about our club, this is appallingly negative. Butcher might not have made it and there are different views as to why. To call him a spud is poor form. I trust you'll call Hinkley the same if we miss out on finals a third time on his watch.

Fantatic call. There were probably very valid reasons that Butcher couldn't find the work ethic, or motivation to play the way Hinkley wanted.

One s**t thing about our culture is that people are envious of talent. Talented people are often told they will succeed in life, but often not given the tools to do so, and have to learn for themselves which can take a long time. In an industry like the AFL where you can have missed your opportunity by 21 years old it can be incredibly harsh as you may not even realise what you were missing until its too late.

We as supporters are way too harsh on players, and it can get even worse when its a dick measuring contest as it is in this thread. I know I personally have been too harsh on Butcher because I get pissed off with people suggesting he was the chosen one.

The reality is the players do read these boards, and I think we'd all be ashamed of some things we've said. So its important we keep each other in line.

 

[Tibbs]

This is a tasteless post. For a guy who often posts blind optimism about our club, this is appallingly negative. Butcher might not have made it and there are different views as to why. To call him a spud is poor form. I trust you'll call Hinkley the same if we miss out on finals a third time on his watch.

I agree it is strongly worded, but I would say it is based on being angry at the posters here who are delusional regarding Butcher. We all thought he had the talent. We all wanted him to succeed. But there was something seriously lacking in Butch, something Butch, Ken & the coaches knew ... lets hope he finds it in the snaffel.

ITM, a chap we got for a bag of chips in the rookie draft is going to sadly be an upgrade on him in 2017.

 

[Dylan8]

I hope for our sake Eddy is an adept AFL player but declaring him an upgrade before he's kicked a footy at the highest level then calling others delusional is laughable.

Let me know when he gets a haul of six or a few bags of four at AFL level before declaring him an upgrade.

 

[Pappagallo]

Fantatic call. There were probably very valid reasons that Butcher couldn't find the work ethic, or motivation to play the way Hinkley wanted.

One s**t thing about our culture is that people are envious of talent. Talented people are often told they will succeed in life, but often not given the tools to do so, and have to learn for themselves which can take a long time. In an industry like the AFL where you can have missed your opportunity by 21 years old it can be incredibly harsh as you may not even realise what you were missing until its too late.

We as supporters are way too harsh on players, and it can get even worse when its a dick measuring contest as it is in this thread. I know I personally have been too harsh on Butcher because I get pissed off with people suggesting he was the chosen one.

The reality is the players do read these boards, and I think we'd all be ashamed of some things we've said. So its important we keep each other in line.

Apart from looking like Jesus I don't think many would claim that he was the chosen one, well at least not in the last couple of seasons anyway.

But he still could've been a decent player, the type of player we've desperately needed for almost a decade. It didn't happen, probably due to a combination of factors outlined many times over in this thread, and that's frustrating especially since he was actually looking alright again towards the end there.

Anyway I just hope that something has been learned from it all and we don't make the same mistakes again with the next generation.

 

[Forzaport]

I hope for our sake Eddy is an adept AFL player but declaring him an upgrade before he's kicked a footy at the highest level then calling others delusional is laughable.

Let me know when he gets a haul of six or a few bags of four at AFL level before declaring him an upgrade.

It would be a pointless exercise as all of Butcher's 4+ goal games have had no bearing on the result.

Eddy is already an upgrade on Butcher at SANFL level and all he really needs to do at AFL level to be an upgrade is kick straight and play his role.

 

[Janus]

This is a tasteless post. For a guy who often posts blind optimism about our club, this is appallingly negative. Butcher might not have made it and there are different views as to why. To call him a spud is poor form. I trust you'll call Hinkley the same if we miss out on finals a third time on his watch.

In case you haven't noticed, the spud is not only no longer with the club, but was so classless that unlike Kane Mitchell who said he could never play for another club other than the Magpies in the SANFL, signed with Central Districts. Meaning that he now actively and willfully acts against the best interests of the PAFC. You want tasteless, I present to you John Butcher. Yet people in this thread still want to suck his dick and hope he kicks 10 goals against us in some sort of bizarre fetish.

Tibbs is right, I've been positive about him in the past, and I desperately wanted him to succeed because he would have added a much needed dimension to the forward line, but this revisionist claptrap about how he was some sort of forgotten potential superstar is annoying me. In fact, every post in this thread annoys me, because it shows just how much time we wasted on him. We all saw what he could do. No amount of game time in the AFL was going to make him kick straighter, run harder, defender better or any of the things that make a capable AFL forward.

It's the classic Simpsons line: "That's like saying this rock repels bears." "How does it work?" "It doesn't, but you don't see any bears around do you?" "Lisa, I want to buy your rock..." Well you can say the same thing about Butcher - you never saw him play a decent game against anything other than poor opposition, but because he didn't 'get opportunity' people are still talking about potential...for a guy who is 25 years old.

People want to think that Hinkley is this neglectful coach that doesn't know we need to replenish our key forward stocks. Yet in the time he's been here, he's drafted Shaw, Harvey and Marshall and recruited Dixon. That's four tall forwards in four years. It's not Hinkley's fault that neither Butcher, Shaw or Harvey had the mental application to succeed as a forward at AFL level, but apparently according to some we should just give these guys games that their performance doesn't deserve.

 

[bomberclifford]

In fact, every post in this thread annoys me

Posting just to annoy Janus

 

[Alyx]

I take back everything I said earlier today. This just got interesting.

 

[Pappagallo]

In case you haven't noticed, the spud is not only no longer with the club, but was so classless that unlike Kane Mitchell who said he could never play for another club other than the Magpies in the SANFL, signed with Central Districts. Meaning that he now actively and willfully acts against the best interests of the PAFC. You want tasteless, I present to you John Butcher. Yet people in this thread still want to suck his dick and hope he kicks 10 goals against us in some sort of bizarre fetish.

What the actual.

This is the football equivalent of dumping your girlfriend and then having a cry when she finally moves on with her life and finds someone else.

What's the "tasteful" alternative here? Quit football? Exile from Fruchoctopia? Both?!

 

[Launchpad McQuack]

In case you haven't noticed, the spud is not only no longer with the club, but was so classless that unlike Kane Mitchell who said he could never play for another club other than the Magpies in the SANFL, signed with Central Districts. Meaning that he now actively and willfully acts against the best interests of the PAFC. You want tasteless, I present to you John Butcher. Yet people in this thread still want to suck his dick and hope he kicks 10 goals against us in some sort of bizarre fetish.

 

[edgie]

I love how 'Butcher is a bad kick' are extremely regular arguments against him, but I only recall one game where it mattered - at AFL level - where he really sprayed them, Geelong in 2013.

1 out of 30 odd isn't so bad.

Sent from my Lumia 800 using Tapatalk

 

[JohnHinckleyJr]

Anyone who thinks that this spud was the answer is the one who is kidding themselves. Using phrases like "blue chip" on a guy masquerading as a player when he can't even be relied on to kick a simple goal...I can't even.

You invested so much time in him and his career, and now the dream is over. But instead of accepting that, people are still crying as if he was some unstoppable force at SANFL level and he was hard done by because he wasn't "given a go".

He never earned a go. Ever. In his entire career. Didn't want to put in the hard yards, didn't want to work on his kicking until the last year of his contract. Whenever there was an opening in the forward line, you can bet your bottom dollar that he wouldn't put up his hand with a great consistent performance over a couple of weeks to prove he had the resilience needed to make it at elite level. Nope, he'd put in one decent shift, think that was enough to get selected and then drop his bundle the next week when he wasn't. He never, ever made it impossible for him not to be selected.

Us needing a decent key forward doesn't mean we should have played this spud more. Marshall will be twenty times the player the deservedly delisted hack was. The only thing I'm angry about is the fact that we wasted two top ten picks on both him and Moore.

Missed it by that much

 

[crafty_bernardo]

In case you haven't noticed, the spud is not only no longer with the club, but was so classless that unlike Kane Mitchell who said he could never play for another club other than the Magpies in the SANFL, signed with Central Districts. Meaning that he now actively and willfully acts against the best interests of the PAFC. You want tasteless, I present to you John Butcher. Yet people in this thread still want to suck his dick and hope he kicks 10 goals against us in some sort of bizarre fetish.

Tibbs is right, I've been positive about him in the past, and I desperately wanted him to succeed because he would have added a much needed dimension to the forward line, but this revisionist claptrap about how he was some sort of forgotten potential superstar is annoying me. In fact, every post in this thread annoys me, because it shows just how much time we wasted on him. We all saw what he could do. No amount of game time in the AFL was going to make him kick straighter, run harder, defender better or any of the things that make a capable AFL forward.

It's the classic Simpsons line: "That's like saying this rock repels bears." "How does it work?" "It doesn't, but you don't see any bears around do you?" "Lisa, I want to buy your rock..." Well you can say the same thing about Butcher - you never saw him play a decent game against anything other than poor opposition, but because he didn't 'get opportunity' people are still talking about potential...for a guy who is 25 years old.

People want to think that Hinkley is this neglectful coach that doesn't know we need to replenish our key forward stocks. Yet in the time he's been here, he's drafted Shaw, Harvey and Marshall and recruited Dixon. That's four tall forwards in four years. It's not Hinkley's fault that neither Butcher, Shaw or Harvey had the mental application to succeed as a forward at AFL level, but apparently according to some we should just give these guys games that their performance doesn't deserve.

Well I'd be damned an AFL footballer wanted to continue playing the code he loves despite not making success at the top level. Perhaps Butcher has a girlfriend or settled life in Adelaide that he'd rather stay than move back to Melbourne/Maffra. Bizzare post.

 

[Doctor Feel]