A thread on politics- have some balls and post

[Caiphus]

Planned parenthood already runs off of a majority of donations, otherwise, it would never survive a Republican government. This EO isn't about Planned Parenthood at all but aid organisations that receive US funding in any other part of the world that even mention abortion as an option. The hypocrisy of pro-lifers is that they don't give a shit about what happens to a baby once it's out of the womb especially when it is tucked away in the third-world; out of sight, out of mind.

 

[Viceregal]

This executive
order specifically reinstated the global gag rule. A revolting bit of policy pandering to the religious right while the people who will suffer are conveniently hidden away in the dark corners of the Earth.

One of the biggest boosts you can give to the economic and social development of women in the third world is to free them from being slaves to their reproductive systems. Trump just reattached the ball and chain so that he could gain some easy domestic political capital. Repugnant.

Normally 'coercive' and 'forced' are not words used as descriptors of voluntary actions. Does 'coercive abortion' have a special meaning I am unaware of in this context?

Are there people on either the left of the right who stand up to defend forcing people to have abortions against their will and how is it a religious matter at all (a religious person who believes that a fetus is a person from day one or second trimester or whatever is not going to be placated at all by a law that doesn't affect what they perceive as industrial scale murder all around them)

And if there *are* places where abortion is forced (eg I know it happens with unauthorised extra pregnancies in China) in 'the dark corners of the Earth' why are they getting federal funding from the US Govt???

 

[Hollow Knight]

Was that intended to be a reply to my post? Because it seemingly isn't responding to anything I said. You're just going on with this unsubstantiated one-man narrative of coerced abortions.

Can I genuinely ask what news sources you are reading?

 

[Ironmonger]

Normally 'coercive' and 'forced' are not words used as descriptors of voluntary actions. Does 'coercive abortion' have a special meaning I am unaware of in this context?

Are there people on either the left of the right who stand up to defend forcing people to have abortions against their will and how is it a religious matter at all (a religious person who believes that a fetus is a person from day one or second trimester or whatever is not going to be placated at all by a law that doesn't affect what they perceive as industrial scale murder all around them)

And if there *are* places where abortion is forced (eg I know it happens with unauthorised extra pregnancies in China) in 'the dark corners of the Earth' why are they getting federal funding from the US Govt???

VR, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you might be under the impression that the line about forced abortions is the only substantial section of that Presidential Memorandum.

As dlanod mentioned earlier, this is the line that is controversial:

I hereby revoke the Presidential Memorandum of January 23, 2009, for the Secretary of State and the Administrator of the United States Agency for International Development (Mexico City Policy and Assistance for Voluntary Population Planning), and reinstate the Presidential Memorandum of January 22, 2001, for the Administrator of the United States Agency for International Development (Restoration of the Mexico City Policy).

The Memo of 22/1/2001 can be found here -

https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/20010123-5.html

And the effect can be summed up by this section:

...nongovernmental organizations to agree as a condition of their receipt of Federal funds that such organizations would neither perform nor actively promote abortion as a method of family planning in other nations

The effect is of this to prevent organisations that receive any money from the US Government from discussing abortion with clients in their business outside the US. I believe that applies to all federal funding of any kind, not just that earmarked for expenditure overseas.

You're entitled to your own views on that, of course. Personally I agree with TheBrownDog that it's a really nasty bit of partisanship that potentially costs lives.

Edit: Oh, and Planned Parenthood is the name of one of the NGOs that would be affected, so I guess that's where 'defunding Planned Parenthood' comes from.

 

[Viceregal]

Was that intended to be a reply to my post? Because it seemingly isn't responding to anything I said. You're just going on with this unsubstantiated one-man narrative of coerced abortions.

Can I genuinely ask what news sources you are reading?

I am quoting from paragraph three in the same memo that Ironmonger quotes below with paragraph one. So the news source in this case is www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office (see below for more info)

VR, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you might be under the impression that the line about forced abortions is the only substantial section of that Presidential Memorandum.

As dlanod mentioned earlier, this is the line that is controversial:


The Memo of 22/1/2001 can be found here -

https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/20010123-5.html

And the effect can be summed up by this section:


The effect is of this to prevent organisations that receive any money from the US Government from discussing abortion with clients in their business outside the US. I believe that applies to all federal funding of any kind, not just that earmarked for expenditure overseas.

You're entitled to your own views on that, of course. Personally I agree with TheBrownDog that it's a really nasty bit of partisanship that potentially costs lives.

Edit: Oh, and Planned Parenthood is the name of one of the NGOs that would be affected, so I guess that's where 'defunding Planned Parenthood' comes from.

Thanks! I was taking the rest of the Memo as explanatory elements of para 1 - ie that the following paras explained what re-introducing the policy meant. Which is why I was talking about the coercive bit and why TheBrownDog and I were talking past each other so effectively!

Looking at the memo ... "The effect is of this to prevent organisations that receive any money from the US Government from discussing abortion with clients in their business outside the US. I believe that applies to all federal funding of any kind, not just that earmarked for expenditure overseas." it seems to be made by Reagan, overturned by Clinton, re-engaged by Bush, overturned by Obama, and now re-engaged by Trump! Looking at the reasoning straight after the quoted bit he says
"It is my conviction that taxpayer funds should not be used to pay for abortions or advocate or actively promote abortion, either here or abroad. It is therefore my belief that the Mexico City Policy should be restored" Whether you are pro-life/anti-abortion or pro-choice/anti-fetus I am guessing there would be a separate debate as whether it is something everybody should be paying for (Federally funded) or financially supported by those who choose to actively support it?

And yes I can see where the pro-life elements of the religious right would be happy about it. Speaking of which I wonder how many will be showing up for the national march for life they are having (their) today ....

 

[Hollow Knight]

Must watch.

Part 1

Part 2

 

[BuntonRules]

Dont often have a say here, but this is well worth a read

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/new...ain&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=paid outbrain

This week, Russia is on the verge of passing a bill that will decriminalise domestic violence except in cases of rape, and where it causes serious bodily harm

 

[Caiphus]

Dont often have a say here, but this is well worth a read

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/news-and-views/opinion/russian-move-to-decriminalise-domestic-violence-shows-how-easily-womens-rights-are-bargained-away-20170124-gty4hl?eid=cpc:nnn-14omn2215-optim-nnnutbrain-outbrain_paid-dom-displayad-nnn-smh-nnn&campaign_code=15caf001&promote_channel=sem&utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=paid outbrain

It's so gross, especially in regards to it reinstating "traditional family values".

 

[Caiphus]

Some of the stories coming out from the travel ban are heartbreaking. Especially considering no one from the countries on the list have ever killed a US citizen on American soil in a terror attack. The countries where all the terrorists have come from are off the list and Trump has business interests in them. Its ****ing disgraceful.

 

[MSB ROYS]

Some of the stories coming out from the travel ban are heartbreaking. Especially considering no one from the countries on the list have ever killed a US citizen on American soil in a terror attack. The countries where all the terrorists have come from are off the list and Trump has business interests in them. Its ******* disgraceful.

Agree, it is quite distressing to see.

 

[morsie]

You mean the same list of 7 countries promulgated by the Obama administration when they instituted a 6 month ban on immigrationion from those countires to the deafening silence from the media and his supporters?

 

[Hollow Knight]

Was there a six month immigration ban under Obama?

I haven't read deeply into it but all the reports I am suddenly seeing on this issue talk about these countries being designated as places of concern by the Obama administration and were subject to some sort of restrictions on Visas to people who had recently been travelling in these states. Happy to be proven wrong - as I said I haven't looked into it deeply but can see some of the Alt-Right twitterati getting in quite a lather about it.

Trump is the man behind the desk now regardless, so his decisions are rightfully being scrutinised. The right need to get over Obama, he's gone.

 

[acuguy]

Well it is going to be an interesting time, I think the anarchist will be the winners out of this!

 

[Caiphus]

Did you get that from Andrew Bolt? Obama's law just required people from visa waver countries to get a visa if they had recently travelled to a country of concern. Those countries were selected by intelligence as offering funding for terrorists rather than necessarily producing terrorists and Trump copied the same countries from there. It was no immigration ban.

 

[Caiphus]

Was there a six month immigration ban under Obama?

I haven't read deeply into it but all the reports I am suddenly seeing on this issue talk about these countries being designated as places of concern by the Obama administration and were subject to some sort of restrictions on Visas to people who had recently been travelling in these states. Happy to be proven wrong - as I said I haven't looked into it deeply but can see some of the Alt-Right twitterati getting in quite a lather about it.

Trump is the man behind the desk now regardless, so his decisions are rightfully being scrutinised. The right need to get over Obama, he's gone.

You beat me to it, I was distracted and typing slowly.

 

[Caiphus]

Well it is going to be an interesting time, I think the anarchist will be the winners out of this!

Hopefully the ancoms and not the ancaps.

 

[Balony_pony16]

Was there a six month immigration ban under Obama?

I haven't read deeply into it but all the reports I am suddenly seeing on this issue talk about these countries being designated as places of concern by the Obama administration and were subject to some sort of restrictions on Visas to people who had recently been travelling in these states. Happy to be proven wrong - as I said I haven't looked into it deeply but can see some of the Alt-Right twitterati getting in quite a lather about it.

Trump is the man behind the desk now regardless, so his decisions are rightfully being scrutinised. The right need to get over Obama, he's gone.

I think Obama did a 6mth ban on bombing the middle east.......jokes. No he didnt

 

[Viceregal]

Was there a six month immigration ban under Obama?

I haven't read deeply into it but all the reports I am suddenly seeing on this issue talk about these countries being designated as places of concern by the Obama administration and were subject to some sort of restrictions on Visas to people who had recently been travelling in these states. Happy to be proven wrong - as I said I haven't looked into it deeply but can see some of the Alt-Right twitterati getting in quite a lather about it.

Trump is the man behind the desk now regardless, so his decisions are rightfully being scrutinised. The right need to get over Obama, he's gone.

The original one
https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/01/21/united-states-begins-implementation-changes-visa-waiver-program
and the extension
https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/02/18/dhs-announces-further-travel-restrictions-visa-waiver-program

 

[Hollow Knight]

Under the Act, travelers in the following categories are no longer eligible to travel or be admitted to the United States under the Visa Waiver Program (VWP):

These individuals will still be able to apply for a visa using the regular immigration process at our embassies or consulates. For those who need a U.S. visa for urgent business, medical, or humanitarian travel to the United States, U.S. embassies and consulates stand ready to process applications on an expedited basis.

So unless I am totally reading this wrong... people are seriously equating Trump's flat out 'you may not enter' policy (along with a 120 day suspension of their refugee program) with Obama saying 'yeah, people from these countries aren't just getting waived in any more, you have to apply for a visa. Oh and we're really sorry about this... if you can convince us your situation is urgent we are allowing our consular staff to fasttrack your application'?

 

[Hollow Knight]

Since loudly shouting fake news and liberal media conspiracy have become the new mantra of the Alt-Right, you'd think they themselves would want to practise what they preach and be absolutely beyond reproach when it comes to conveying information accurately, fairly and within the proper context.

We are repeatedly seeing the complete opposite.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Haha, just read up a little bit more on the OBAMA DID IT TOO! thing.

Turns out that 7 country list was actually put together by a Republican congressman in a bill and it was defeated in the senate. It was only reluctantly passed later on by Obama when the Republicans attached it to an omnibus budget appropriations bill, and he didn't want to... y'know... shut the whole federal government down. Then he instructed his staff to develop processes to expedite the Visa applications as a compensatory mechanism.

You Trumpies are shameless.

#fakenews

 

[Hollow Knight]

If Trump got filmed huffing glue from a paper bag in the middle of the Situation Room, Trump supporters would find a photo of Obama licking a postage stamp, start calling him Barack HUSSEIN Gluebama and talk about a Liberal media conspiracy because CNN never reported on Stampgate.

 

[Fatcat08]

Geez some of these appointments hes doing to the EPA are pretty downright scary. There won't be an EPA in another year. Fancy handing the head of transition role to a guy from a think tank almost entirely funded by the Koch brothers! Yikes!

 

[Hollow Knight]

Trump vs Turnbull would be hilarious if it wasn't for refugees being used as a political football yet again.

 

[MacMum]

Trump is one very crazy man. Wouldn't surprise me at all if he did say all was well with the deal, then change his mind.

He is fast alienating the whole world it seems. He has no finesse at all. No wonder Melania wants to stay in NY..