A thread on politics- have some balls and post

[jackess]

I think Bernardi's new party will get a fair bit of support at the next election. It will be interesting to see if they battle One Nation for the ignorant or willfully ignorant voters.

Probably not the worst thing for the Libs if it allows them to be more progressive given the Greens and Labor aren't doing a whole lot to inspire voters.

 

[Leemas]

I think Bernardi's new party will get a fair bit of support at the next election. It will be interesting to see if they battle One Nation for the ignorant or willfully ignorant voters.

Probably not the worst thing for the Libs if it allows them to be more progressive given the Greens and Labor aren't doing a whole lot to inspire voters.

It's language like this that will only further ostrisise these groups of people.

 

[SizeMatters]

It's language like this that will only further ostrisise these groups of people.

One of the reasons why the right is gaining strength in recent years and arguably a major reason why trump is president of the USA.

 

[Ironmonger]

It's language like this that will only further ostrisise these groups of people.

You guys aren't wrong, but I really wonder about those sensitive flowers so upset about rude people on the internet that they'll vote for a buffoon.

Not that the right have a monopoly on hurt feelings. It's getting harder and harder to tell the difference between real and affected outrage on the left as well.

I have this fantasy where one day everyone in the world wakes up and simultaneously realises that they're actually exactly the freaking same as the people who they violently disagree with.

 

[jackess]

It's language like this that will only further ostrisise these groups of people.

If people are going to give Bernardi or Hanson the slightest bit of power then they have a very limited view of the world. There's no excuse for supporting Xenophobia or Homophobia.

 

[Skoob]

Sorry I know this is a little off topic but wouldn't it technically be xenophobic and not racist? By my understanding of the words it should be unless someone can clarify. For whatever trivial reason it has always confused me and bugged me that people call those who dislike Muslims racist, because I don't think that's the correct word.

I know it adds nothing to the conversation but I'm sure there's a linguist on this board who can clarify.

I did second guess myself on this, but xenophobic isn't correct either, and given these attitudes are predominantly from white guys toward the brown guys out of Iran, Afganistan etc, racist seemed to fit. Beyond that, I believe the specific targeting of foreign (not white) Muslims is not described well enough by the broader term of bigotry. I think the broader meaning is acceptable, particularly as those arguing it know exactly what was is meant.

 

[Skoob]

It's language like this that will only further ostrisise these groups of people.

One of the reasons why the right is gaining strength in recent years and arguably a major reason why trump is president of the USA.

I think ignorant people are ostracised because they are ignorant, not because they are called ignorant.
I also think that the right is gathering pace/popularity because of fear. They are clinging to simpler yesteryear and global change is to quick for them. They think the foreigners and Muslims are changing their world to much and just want that change to stop. They think like this because that is what is presented to them by the real bigots in power, supported by a bigoted main stream media. Sad really.

 

[jackess]

I think ignorant people are ostracised because they are ignorant, not because they are called ignorant.
I also think that the right is gathering pace/popularity because of fear. They are clinging to simpler yesteryear and global change is to quick for them. They think the foreigners and Muslims are changing their world to much and just want that change to stop. They think like this because that is what is presented to them by the real bigots in power, supported by a bigoted main stream media. Sad really.

I think there's a common misconception in western countries that progressive politics has failed because the present is as good as they once promised. This combined with the nostalgia of yesteryear has resulted in a movement towards very conservative politics.

 

[SizeMatters]

Off topic but why do people vote for the one party their whole lives? I don't really care much for politics but I have always found it fascinating that people (seems to be the older generation or maybe they have the loudest voices when it comes to politics) consistently vote Labor or Liberal even if the policies of their preferred party is detrimental to the country in some capacity.

 

[Hollow Knight]

When did conservatives become so scared of monsters under the bed? They used to be the "stiff upper lip" set.

Yet it's the left who are called "cucks"...

 

[Skoob]

Off topic but why do people vote for the one party their whole lives? I don't really care much for politics but I have always found it fascinating that people (seems to be the older generation or maybe they have the loudest voices when it comes to politics) consistently vote Labor or Liberal even if the policies of their preferred party is detrimental to the country in some capacity.

I do. It's because I don't believe in individual representation and parties hold all the power. It then becomes a matter of core values and beliefs. Sure, each of those parties can swing a little left or right over time, and all parties have their good and bad individuals, but in the main, each party is relatively consistent.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Israel's parliament endorsed land theft is disgusting. Thankfully it is illegal under Israeli and International law and will be struck down, but what a shameless vote grab by Netanyahu with an election looming.

 

[SizeMatters]

Israel's parliament endorsed land theft is disgusting. Thankfully it is illegal under Israeli and International law and will be struck down, but what a shameless vote grab by Netanyahu with an election looming.

Won't stop them they have been one of the worst countries for crimes of aggression ever since they stole the land from the Palestinians in the 40s. I would be gobsmacked if this is overturned for the long term. They have been 'ethnically cleansing' the area for decades with no one blinking an eye.

 

[Viceregal]

VR, what are you trying to say here? I've read it three times now and I can't figure it out.

Oh good, I was worried it was me. I didn't want to say anything just in case.

What I was trying to do was explain why I could legitimately expect certain trends in behaviour from members of certain religious groups. What I ended up doing was partially answering / covering a completely different question that wasn't being asked and which I could have answered if anyone had brought that part up... sorry about that.

 

[Skoob]

Turnbull's savage attack on Shorten. "Billionaire's sycophant". Oh, the irony. Me thinks his anger was misdirected.

 

[Hollow Knight]

They're both useless.

 

[Viceregal]

...I have no trouble with Trump (or the other countries that do it) choosing to not import terrorists (or try not to) or anyone else who are avowed enemies of their country. ...

Lost me on the 3rd line. Sounds like you just labelled all those banned from entering as "terrorists", or at least make the same assumption as Trump, that anyone travelling in 7 countries could be. But not other countries? Weird, but mostly racist.

Not at all. Seven countries - six of which are considered failed states and known areas of terrorist activity and one of which considers America to be 'the Great Satan' and 'Death to America' a legitimate description of foreign policy (Iran btw).

When I see an email from a stranger, with 'interesting' grammar that turns out to be from Nigeria or Eastern Europe it gets avoided like the plague.
Why - because Nigeria and Eastern Europe are known areas where scammers etc congregate and I don't want to be a part of their income stream.
Are there other places in the world that have scammers - sure - but extra care is taken because of their (deserved) reputation. Maybe that makes me criminalophobic or something?

If I am sailing a boat off the coast of Somalia - I do it with a group of supportive other ships - because the ocean is treacherous? No - because Somalia is a known haunt of active pirates and I don't want to help their income steam (or body count) either. And I am not being racist - Somalis may be black but I am looking at their actions not their skin colour.

When I am looking at letting people into my county I am equally going to look more closely at the countries that have a reputation for active terrorism and the exporting of it. Am I looking out for terrorists from other countries? Sure - but I am starting by focusing on these countries that have been identified (including in the Middle East) as places where terrorists thrive.

Even at this point the govt has the option to make exceptions for known folks with legitimate business from there - no one is saying that everyone from those places are terrorists - they are saying that they are the places where the terrorists would most likely come from and they need to work out how to tell the sheep from the goats before they enter ... which they intend to do over the next 90 days.

Hell we even do it here in Australia - if I wanted to even *go* to Syria I have to give a damn good reason for it - and if I went there without telling them and tried to come back they will most definitely treat me differently ...

 

[Skoob]

If I am sailing a boat off the coast of Somalia - I do it with a group of supportive other ships - because the ocean is treacherous? No - because Somalia is a known haunt of active pirates and I don't want to help their income steam (or body count) either. And I am not being racist - Somalis may be black but I am looking at their actions not their skin colour.

Yeah, sorry, that is racist. You see, the Somali waters is a dangerous place for Somali pirates, but you have just suggested that you are wary of Somalis, not Somali pirates. "Somalis may be black but I am looking at their actions." Their actions. Somalis' actions. There lies the difference.
There is already vetting/scanning/processing in place. The USA may as you say be within their rights to impose "bans" as they choose. It seems the President alone cannot. Either way, there are consequences with regard to how they are viewed, and that is a matter for them. That however, doesn't make the policy any less racist or unbalanced.

 

[Viceregal]

Wasn't there a report released recently that found the chance of being killed by a 'refugee terrorist' is 1 in 3.64 billion?

One of the biggest issues is that for many people their only exposure to (for example) Muslim refugees is what they see on the news. So they get an extremely warped idea of the situation and of the people.

1 in 3.64 billion? The chance of winning the lotto is well under 1 in 100m...

Exactly, you've got more chance of being struck multiple times by lightning. Or getting struck by lightning while being eaten by a shark.

Cool - so in 2016 21,240 people were killed and 26,682 were injured by multiple lightning strikes or lighting+shark combos - I didn't realise lightning was such a massive problem!!!

Source - http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=2016 (note I am unfamiliar with the statistical modalities used by this site (first visit 'though I have seen it mentioned a few times) but even if they were inflating 50% that is still a hell of a lot of people being hit by double lightning strikes!

Btw (again not a statistician) but if for ease of maths we make the earth's population at 7 Billion and the chances of being killed 1 in 3.5 billion - would that make it only 2 a year world wide or is that only 2 ever or... ?

 

[Viceregal]

Yeah, sorry, that is racist. You see, the Somali waters is a dangerous place for Somali pirates, but you have just suggested that you are wary of Somalis, not Somali pirates. "Somalis may be black but I am looking at their actions." Their actions. Somalis' actions. There lies the difference.
There is already vetting/scanning/processing in place. The USA may as you say be within their rights to impose "bans" as they choose. It seems the President alone cannot. Either way, there are consequences with regard to how they are viewed, and that is a matter for them. That however, doesn't make the policy any less racist or unbalanced.

*sigh* the actions of the Somali pirates ... who are from Somalia ... where people happen to be black ... and whose actions would cause me to equally avoid the waters off Tasmania if the Tasmanians pirates were as much of a problem there...


Effectively I am looking at the content of their character and you are looking at the colour of their skin and somehow *I* am the racist one? Has MLK Jr been officially declared a racist yet?

 

[Hollow Knight]

Effectively I am looking at the content of their character and you are looking at the colour of their skin and somehow *I* am the racist one? Has MLK Jr been officially declared a racist yet?

1. No dude, you are making massive generalisations and then applying it to entire ethnic, racial, religious groups.

Islam is to Islamic terrorist/ISIS/Al Qaeda as Christianity is to Ku Klux Klan/The Aryan Nations/Lord's Resistance Army. Only one religion seems to be forced to carry the can for all its violent extremists however.

2. Not sure why "failed states" is relevant... are people living in failed states inherently evil? And if we stop taking refugees from "failed states" then you're probably saying "piss off" to the most legitimate asylum seekers in the world.

3. As for the MLK reference, ****ing hell!!!

 

[Skoob]

*sigh* the actions of the Somali pirates ... who are from Somalia ... where people happen to be black ... and whose actions would cause me to equally avoid the waters off Tasmania if the Tasmanians pirates were as much of a problem there...


Effectively I am looking at the content of their character and you are looking at the colour of their skin and somehow *I* am the racist one? Has MLK Jr been officially declared a racist yet?

If Tasmanian pirates were an issue, you would ban Tasmanians from entry to the mainland, and don't see a judgemental problem with this? Discriminating against an entire group, based on the actions of a few, is the very basis of bigotry. It could be an irrational dislike for no reason or an irrational distrust of all because of some, but the result is the same.

 

[Viceregal]

If Tasmanian pirates were an issue, you would ban Tasmanians from entry to the mainland, and don't see a judgemental problem with this? Discriminating against an entire group, based on the actions of a few, is the very basis of bigotry. It could be an irrational dislike for no reason or an irrational distrust of all because of some, but the result is the same.

Who said anything about banning Tasmanians???? I said that if Tasmanian pirates were an issue I would be avoiding Tasmanian waters or travelling them in a pack because the circumstances were different - it has nothing to do with Tasmanians (or Somalis) as people - it has to do with treating areas differently due to the activities that take place there.

If you want to call a desire to avoid being taken by pirates an irrational dislike or no reason or that I should trust pirates ... then sure guilty as charged (piratophobia?) but I think you will find that taking precautions to avoid theft, not walking in dark alleys at night, locking your door when you leave the car are traditionally considered responsible and perfectly socially acceptable acts.

 

[Elixuh]

Cool - so in 2016 21,240 people were killed and 26,682 were injured by multiple lightning strikes or lighting+shark combos - I didn't realise lightning was such a massive problem!!!

Source - http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=2016 (note I am unfamiliar with the statistical modalities used by this site (first visit 'though I have seen it mentioned a few times) but even if they were inflating 50% that is still a hell of a lot of people being hit by double lightning strikes!

Btw (again not a statistician) but if for ease of maths we make the earth's population at 7 Billion and the chances of being killed 1 in 3.5 billion - would that make it only 2 a year world wide or is that only 2 ever or... ?

I'm not sure what the relevance of the worldwide terror stat is nor the reference to Earths population. Weren't we discussing refugees and immigration in the US.

 

[Skoob]

Who said anything about banning Tasmanians???? I said that if Tasmanian pirates were an issue I would be avoiding Tasmanian waters or travelling them in a pack because the circumstances were different - it has nothing to do with Tasmanians (or Somalis) as people - it has to do with treating areas differently due to the activities that take place there.

If you want to call a desire to avoid being taken by pirates an irrational dislike or no reason or that I should trust pirates ... then sure guilty as charged (piratophobia?) but I think you will find that taking precautions to avoid theft, not walking in dark alleys at night, locking your door when you leave the car are traditionally considered responsible and perfectly socially acceptable acts.

But your man Trump isn't avoiding going to Iran or Afghanistan because it may be dangerous, he is wanting to ban them all from coming into the US.

Edit: Sorry, Iraq. I don't know why I keep using Afghanistan as an example.