Query Ross Faulkner footies in the AFL?

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Harry Hook said:
I've been pottering around looking for some detail as to why Sherrins were used and came across this article about the Carlton 1908 premiership.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article202184000

Note the information about how Sherrin introduced a more rounded football for the 1908 carnival which was then used in the 1908 GF.

Then I found this article about the Goldfields league in WA, not the WAFL, adopting the Sherrin 1905, prior to the 1908 Carnival ball.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article211483319

Note that the GFA tested the Sherrin and the Gilberts ball ( which I'd seen referred to in advertisements) which presumably was more a rugby type ball.

A commentator in the Truth in WA in 1905 indicated that there was no appreciable difference

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article207391083



This Daily news article of 1905 suggests that there was a change in specs of the ball used.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article80013675

It would seem that the Goldfields league later may have decided to also use the "Fordham" ball in 1907

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article204559692


And there was further debate on the topic in he Goldfields in 1907

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article204559284


which is useful because it details the types and names of the ball in use at the time.

Meanwhile the Tasmanian league were using the "Vardon "Ball in addition to the Sherrin in 1912

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10242139


The NTFA in Tasmania in 1929 decided to use a sherrin instead of a "N and Y" ball

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page3214632

Quite what and N and Y ball is I'm unsure.

Then in 1929 it was decided to use at the Carnival the Burley and the Sherrin

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article210497876

I've probably opened a can of worms here but what it appears is that there were a miscellany of bulls in use prior to 1907 under various names but Sherrin in 1908 took the lead but there was still the Burley/Sherrin divide in 1930.

Or is that too simplified.
Click to expand...

Not going to comment on all of this ATM, but Collingwood visited Tassie in 1929 although at the end of the season, rather than the start, but perhaps business deals were on the go earlier ! - you scratch my back, i will scratch yours.

I only know this because my grandfather was part of the touring party.
 
Garlic muncher said:
Not going to comment on all of this ATM, but Collingwood visited Tassie in 1929 although at the end of the season, rather than the start, but perhaps business deals were on the go earlier ! - you scratch my back, i will scratch yours.

I only know this because my grandfather was part of the touring party.
Click to expand...
That had slipped my mind.

I'm sure if I look hard enough there would be a reference to the Collingwood touring team using a Sherrin football so whether it was business or just the use of the ball, it may be more than coincidental that change took place.

Either way the battle of which football was used appears to have been, at least a little murkier than it may appear at first light.
 

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Harry Hook said:
That had slipped my mind.

I'm sure if I look hard enough there would be a reference to the Collingwood touring team using a Sherrin football so whether it was business or just the use of the ball, it may be more than coincidental that change took place.

Either way the battle of which football was used appears to have been, at least a little murkier than it may appear at first light.
Click to expand...

Mr. ' Syd. Sherrin, senior vice
president of the Collingwood Football
Club, returned to Melbourne by the
Natrana on Saturday after a short
holiday in 'Tasmania

 
I'm intrigued about the mechanics of the football, at least in the VFA/VFL pre 1910.

It is strange that the VFA introduced set specifications for a fooball, some years after the VFL did. So what did the VFA use before then?

And this excerpt from the Ballarat Star of 1905 clearly shows that there were problems with the ball ( problems not sorted out until Sherrin's 1908 ball).

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article210358325
 
Well I rember Lou
Garlic muncher said:
Pretty sure he loved his footy and at the same time was a shrewd businessman pushing his agenda, which was his footballs along with other sports equipment.

Off on a bit of a tangent here, but although Collingwood was thought off as a Catholic Irish club, the initial committee and even the initial name of the club Britannia were far from it, they were in the main Protestant, Catholics stared appearing in the early 1900's, culminating in Jock McHale and John Wren having power over the club, but as far as Catholic clubs go, i would have thought North and Richmond were more Catholic oriented.
Click to expand...

I remember Lou Richards on CH7's World of Sport saying he was one of the very few non catholics to play for Collingwood.
 
the crows in 1992 and 1993 used faulkners generally for home games

1761ebf34526dd0472fe161ee1cff9b6
 
blueycarlton said:
Well I rember Lou


I remember Lou Richards on CH7's World of Sport saying he was one of the very few non catholics to play for Collingwood.
Click to expand...

Hey Bluey, if you are talking about the 1920's onwards to the 70's then i would agree, but if you are talking about the formation of the club from Brittania to Collingwood and the initial powerbrokers i would disagree.

IMG_9894.jpg


The founders of Collingwood FC......

Using trove etc i have done some quick research of the photo linked above of Sherrin, Lee, Beazley, Joyce and Cross

The Sherrins are actually Irish Protestant and have a very strong Orange history.

Wal Lee, father of the Famous Dick Lee were both Baptist, Wal Lee was a player for Brittania and CFC club trainer well into the 1930's.

Initial president William Beazley was born in London in 1854 and its possible he was Catholic, but if he was, he was lapsed, as his funeral notice does not state a mass or service at a church.

Jack Joyce did not have a church service ( mass) before his funeral.

Alfred Cross ( cant find much about him at all), but a very English sounding name.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/footy-religion-and-politics.1050319/page-2#post-31907860
 
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Garlic muncher said:
Hey Bluey, if you are talking about the 1920's onwards to the 70's then i would agree, but if you are talking about the formation of the club from Brittania to Collingwood and the initial powerbrokers i would disagree.
Alfred Cross ( cant find much about him at all), but a very English sounding name.
Click to expand...
http://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/the-presidents-alfred-cross/

There's plenty on Alfred Cross here ^, though nothing on religion that I could see. He died (at Bethesda Private Hospital in Richmond) 11th September 1934, and was buried at Heidelberg Cemetery:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205876435
 
Trying to find something more definite but I believe prior to the 1890s and for some of the time while Sherrin was making its name, football teams were using the Gilbert ball.

There are a few ads on Trove post 1870s where they were references to new shipments of Gilbert' football's coming in.

I have seen a Google image of what appears to be a pre Sherrin and it appears to be a rugby ball with a pointy end.

Regulations setting out the size of footballs appear to have been first instituted in 1905 ( I could be wrong) so I have assumed that there was no set size prior to this time. Again I could be wrong here.
 

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Harry Hook said:
Trying to find something more definite but I believe prior to the 1890s and for some of the time while Sherrin was making its name, football teams were using the Gilbert ball.

There are a few ads on Trove post 1870s where they were references to new shipments of Gilbert' football's coming in.

I have seen a Google image of what appears to be a pre Sherrin and it appears to be a rugby ball with a pointy end.

Regulations setting out the size of footballs appear to have been first instituted in 1905 ( I could be wrong) so I have assumed that there was no set size prior to this time. Again I could be wrong here.
Click to expand...

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/search-for-aussie-rules-oldest-footballs.1014644/page-2

http://www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au/article39-The-Same-Game-A-Different-Ball

There is a photo of the stand at the 1888 exhibition in Sherrin the family behind the football
 
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Garlic muncher said:
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/search-for-aussie-rules-oldest-footballs.1014644/page-2

http://www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au/article39-The-Same-Game-A-Different-Ball

There is a photo of the stand at the 1888 exhibition in Sherrin the family behind the football
Click to expand...

Thanks for that. It's that pre Sherrin age that I'm narrowing in on.

It's clear that in Victoria at least, Sherrin was winning the football selling war from 1895 onwards and then in 1908 his new matchball changed things as well as the now specified size of the football.
Pre Sherrin though Trove is sketchy with the best evidence being apparently sporting goods ads which referred to new consignments of Gilbert footballs.

That is the next task.
 
Harry Hook said:
Thanks for that. It's that pre Sherrin age that I'm narrowing in on.

It's clear that in Victoria at least, Sherrin was winning the football selling war from 1895 onwards and then in 1908 his new matchball changed things as well as the now specified size of the football.
Pre Sherrin though Trove is sketchy with the best evidence being apparently sporting goods ads which referred to new consignments of Gilbert footballs.

That is the next task.
Click to expand...

I think at one stage they used any old ball, for whatever reason at one stage they decided on a smaller rugby ball, but initially round balls were just as good.

It really is a quirk of fate, probably due to greasing of palms, possibly a administrator having a background in Rugby or a ball maker talking associations into using his ball that we use the ball we use.

It could have just as easily have been a round ball - and had we decided to use a round ball i have no doubt our goal posts would resemble Gaelic football.

Don't get me wrong however, i love the Australian football, love kicking it and seeing it being kicked WELL :)

In fact i am a firm believer that the codifying of Gaelic football and it rules come mainly from Australian football - not the other way around as many believe - but that is another story.

Irish Archbishop Croke who was posted to NZ in the 1870's and was a regular visitor to Vic points me in this direction.

Anyway don't get me started .........
 
My interest on the mechanics of the ball is two fold.

Firstly, it's like the Romans and the Etruscans, one we know heaps about, the other significantly less so.

But there is a practical purpose.

If an entirely, or slightly different ball was used, how did this affect the rules, records, scores, style ofthe early game.

If they played with a rugby ball, for example, did this affect the size of the kick, the scores, the development of the little mark for instance.

A lot of the rules were modernised by the VFL in the early 1900s, about the time the Sherrin was introduced and ball specifications appear to have been made.

Was this a coincidence or was there a casual connection.

This is a historical board and now , with the accessability of Trove, we have different resources available to us , to bring a new light on things.
 
Here's something I picked re Faulkner.

Early spellings of his name have him named as Ross Faulkiner, not Faulkner.

Hence this article from the Sporting Globe of 1931:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article182546178

Faulkiner not only grew to be in a senior position as Sherrin but supplied footballs to the VFA.

No wonder there was some tensions.
 
Reading the Ross Faulkner website, I think I have the timeline. Ross Faulkiner's father starts a saddlery and leathergoods business in 1898. H apparently did not use an "I" in his name.

Ross Faulkiner meanwhile is apprenticed to T W Sherrin around the time of the new Sherrin matchball in 1908.

His brother George plays football at Association level.

The saddlery business continues separately as Ross Faulkiner climbs to management at Sherrin.

For whatever reason, ie he may have been told he can go no further or he may have wanted to take over the family business, Ross Faulkiner moves to the family company in 1927 or thereabouts and branches out to footballs and football apparel keeping the name Ross Faulkner.

Tom Sherrin dies from memory, in the late 20s and Ross moves to secure the VFA football requirements while Sherrin has the VFL contract signed up.

Ross keeps the VFA contract for at least 20 years while Sherrin ties up the AFL.

No wonder there might have been some competition between the two.
 
Fischer footballs came from the factory of
Hugo Fischer - 573 wellington street perth (est 1907)
They appear to have started making footballs around 1922

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/83299963


Hugo was originally from south Australia where he
he worked for his fathers saddlers / tannery busn E.fischer and sons
he appears to have been an player / umpire in yorketown
 
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