Marriage equality debate - The plebiscite is on its way. (Cont in Pt 3)

[sherb]

so I should just ignore my moral compass and go with the flow?

What gives you the right to impose your morals on others?

 

[mxett]

Who performed their marriage ceremony out of interest?

(Courtesy Shaun Micallef).

haha, good one

So it should be legal to discriminate against minorities? Is that your belief?

I think laws based on moral views are reasonable if the majority support it, yes

 

[The_Ru]

I didn't say that. I'm saying the research that I've read has been flawed. It's mostly based on small sample sizes, self reporting, motivated recruiting of subjects and much of it out of date. You haven't actually challenged what I've said so you appear to be the one with your head in the sand, facts be damned.

I think it's likely there is a higher rate of suicide amongst gays but the precise figures are not known. It tallies with the higher rates of mental illness and domestic violence, which are not based on self reporting.

People using the (flawed) data tend draw the conclusion that it's societal pressure - homophobia, discrimination etc - that causes these problems. That conclusion does not reconcile well with the fact that there has never been greater acceptance in society, but the higher rates of mental illness have not come down.

Couldn't an equally logical conclusion be that there is an "acceptance threshold" that needs to be reached before rates decrease, and we're not there yet?

 

[mxett]

Well, you asked if your vote was wrong. I have an inkling that your misinterpretation of the bible might mean the answer is "yes" by your own measure.

I'm guided by the interpretation of the bible I have come to believe. You honestly dont think my view is unusual do you?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

How long do you think it will be before religious institutions are forced to marry homosexuals?

I think Secular and Religious Australia need to come to some kind of accord and compromise. I don't think Religion should hold ownership of the word 'marriage' as a legal contract in the eyes of the State, but I also have come to think religious institutions should be allowed to come to grips with our changing society at their own pace in this regard.

 

[Procrastinator35]

What gives you the right to impose your morals on others?

Because my views & opinions are the correct one's as they are orthodox to me....Ergo, any opinion that diverts from these must be wrong!

 

[mxett]

What gives you the right to impose your morals on others?

well the Australian government gives us the people that right. Isnt that part of how democracy works?

 

[The_Ru]

haha, good one

I think laws based on moral views are reasonable if the majority support it, yes

Not if they're discriminatory, surely? Think very carefully about this. You seem to be suggesting that if the majority decided that, morally, Catholics shouldn't be allowed to vote, then that's ok?

 

[The_Ru]

I'm guided by the interpretation of the bible I have come to believe. You honestly dont think my view is unusual do you?

Unfortunately, selective ignorance of what's in the bible is not unusual in my experience.

 

[Frank Bunn]

You need to provide actual stats for your last contention. Rates of suicide/depression before acceptance vs now etc etc

It's hard to find high quality studies that directly compare. However...

A household-based probability sample of men who have sex with men (N=2,881) was interviewed between 1996 and 1998 in four large American cities. With cutoff points of 15 and 22 for the Center for Epidemiological Studies Depression Scale, individual correlates and predictors of distress and depression were examined, and multinomial logistic regression was performed. Results: The 7-day prevalence of depression in men who have sex with men was 17.2%, higher than in adult U.S. men in general.​

https://msrc.fsu.edu/system/files/M...x with men-- the Urban Men's Health study.pdf

From January 19, 2017

Gay men are a subgroup vulnerable to depression and suicidality. The prevalence of depression among gay men is three times higher than the general adult population.​

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1557988316685492

You are obviously trying to contend that gay people are intrinsically mentally ill rather than extrinsic/societal factors playing the major factor. Any studies suggesting this? Or is it just your opinion?

It's possible. I'm saying the commonly accepted view that the higher risk factors are due to societal pressure is not supported by the evidence.

 

[sherb]

well the Australian government gives us the people that right. Isnt that part of how democracy works?

Having "morals" doesn't involve dictating to others what they can do with their lives.

Think about it.

 

[mxett]

Unfortunately, selective ignorance of what's in the bible is not unusual in my experience.

can you show me bible verses that mention martial union between anything other than man and women?

Not if they're discriminatory, surely? Think very carefully about this. You seem to be suggesting that if the majority decided that, morally, Catholics shouldn't be allowed to vote, then that's ok?

polygomy is a good example, as is age limits on marriage. What are these laws based on?

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

so I should just ignore my moral compass and go with the flow?

Ah, mate - you explicitly stated that you outsource your morality to your religion. It was your reason for voting 'no'.

When asked to describe what religious teachings you were basing that on, you said, very vaguely:

Basically the teachings of the bible, Adam and Eve, that sort of thing

When asked to clarify that very vague statement, you said:

I sort of mentioned it. However, Im not sure this is the thread for such a discussion

Perhaps you could answer without "sort of" or stop pretending you are religious, if that is what you are doing (your comment on polygamy seems to suggest you aren't aware of the bible beyond what was said on The Simpsons)?

 

[mxett]

Having "morals" doesn't involve dictating to others what they can do with their lives.

Think about it.

but we already have laws which were based on moral or religious beliefs that stipulate behaviour and therefore discriminate against some people. Example: surrogacy laws, divorce/family law

 

[Frank Bunn]

Couldn't an equally logical conclusion be that there is an "acceptance threshold" that needs to be reached before rates decrease, and we're not there yet?

It's possible but I think thresholds tend to apply to physical systems rather than psychological. Something breaks rather than a gradual decline. If rates of mental illness and domestic violence were dependent on society why would they not be correlated to the increasing acceptance levels?

Do you accept the other possibilty that the higher rates are not due to societal pressure?

 

[mxett]

Ah, mate - you explicitly stated that you outsource your morality to your religion. It was your reason for voting 'no'.

When asked to describe what religious teachings you were basing that on, you said, very vaguely:

When asked to clarify that very vague statement, you said:

Perhaps you could answer without "sort of" or stop pretending you are religious, if that is what you are doing (your comment on polygamy seems to suggest you aren't aware of the bible beyond what was said on The Simpsons)?

Im perfectly happy to discuss it. I wasnt sure if hijacking this thread with such a discussion was appropriate

 

[Showbags]

It's hard to find high quality studies that directly compare. However...

A household-based probability sample of men who have sex with men (N=2,881) was interviewed between 1996 and 1998 in four large American cities. With cutoff points of 15 and 22 for the Center for Epidemiological Studies Depression Scale, individual correlates and predictors of distress and depression were examined, and multinomial logistic regression was performed. Results: The 7-day prevalence of depression in men who have sex with men was 17.2%, higher than in adult U.S. men in general.​

https://msrc.fsu.edu/system/files/Mills et al 2004 Distress and depression in men who have sex with men-- the Urban Men's Health study.pdf

From January 19, 2017

Gay men are a subgroup vulnerable to depression and suicidality. The prevalence of depression among gay men is three times higher than the general adult population.​

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1557988316685492



It's possible. I'm saying the commonly accepted view that the higher risk factors are due to societal pressure is not supported by the evidence.

So according to your own stats in 1996-1998 the rate of depression was 17% higher than the general population. And in 2017 its 3% higher. Wouldnt that mean an improvement since greater acceptance, hence societal factors being the main (or sole) contributing factor?

 

[The_Ru]

can you show me bible verses that mention martial union between anything other than man and women?

polygomy is a good example, as is age limits on marriage. What are these laws based on?

The truth is the bible neither condemns nor condones same-sex relationships. You'll probably want to quote Leviticus, Corinthians or similar, but you should be aware, these don't really say what many think because context is conveniently ignored. The bible does, of course in the same way, condone slavery. Are you advocating for slavery in modern-day Australia? I assume you are given your very strong moral stance on biblical ideas.

Those two examples you use are fallacious. No-one can be polygamous or marry outside the age-limits. So they're a) not discriminatory and b) terrible examples.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Im perfectly happy to discuss it. I wasnt sure if hijacking this thread with such a discussion was appropriate

And now you are pretending you haven't already hijacked the thread. Why on earth wouldn't you reveal an answer to a question you've been asked three times now?

Did you need time to Google it?

 

[Frank Bunn]

So according to your own stats in 1996-1998 the rate of depression was 17% higher than the general population. And in 2017 its 3% higher. Wouldnt that mean an improvement since greater acceptance, hence societal factors being the main (or sole) contributing factor?

Sighs.

3 times higher is not 3% higher.

FMD. I have better things to do!

 

[The_Ru]

It's possible but I think thresholds tend to apply to physical systems rather than psychological. Something breaks rather than a gradual decline. If rates of mental illness and domestic violence were dependent on society why would they not be correlated to the increasing acceptance levels?

Do you accept the other possibilty that the higher rates are not due to societal pressure?

I can tell you that some psychological illness is most definitely subject to thresholds. Are you familiar with panic disorder?

I can certainly entertain the idea that rates of mental illness are subject to many complex factors, but in my opinion it's not necessarily very helpful to rule one out on the basis of a lack of linear correlation.

 

[yebiga]

Truth is you can call it a marriage
You can invest it with whatever legal terminology you like.

Fact is we will all ineffect be indulging in a pantomime.

That 1% or 2% of the population who are in a gay relationship and need to mimic being a heterosexual family.

You can change the map all you like
But if the terrain stays the same - you've just traded for a bad map.

 

[DemonTim]

Translation. I just want to keep burying my head in the sand and follow the view that suits my agenda, facts be damned.

To try to contend that gay people dont have a higher level of suicide or suicidal ideation than the general population, with a straight face, is breath taking.

So you accept the 2009 data is flawed? Not much point me spending time looking in detail at the evidence if you are going to ignore what I find about it.

I'm not going to look into every single study that you cut and paste. But feel free to link to the 2000 data you refer to. The studies I have looked at so far have had similar flaws that render their conclusions suspect. It's an area where people's opinions could bias the research and the conclusions drawn from it. You have done it yourself - dropping the 'up to' from the 'up to 14x' risk factor statement, comparing lifetime stats against 12 month stats.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who had seen that you apparently just rely on data that you accuse of being bias because you leave out data about the research

I'll continue waiting for you to provide the data I (and the secondary user) asked for

Although it won't happen, since you're notorious for disappearing when your view is questioned

Might be time for a new profile.

 

[Procrastinator35]

I can tell you that some psychological illness is most definitely subject to thresholds. Are you familiar with panic disorder?.

Must you bring up 1975 again?

 

[Admiral Byng]

can you show me bible verses that mention martial union between anything other than man and women?

polygomy is a good example, as is age limits on marriage. What are these laws based on?

It is just about impossible to live life strictly according to the Bible. One inevitably has to pick and choose which bits to observe and which to ignore. It really is not a very useful guidebook on how to live your life in a modern world.

disclaimer - I have already voted.