List Mgmt. 2018 St Kilda Trade Thread Part 1

[VDS66]

Tell me you wouldn't swap him for either of them though. He's like a shit Robbie Grey then if that makes the message more palatable. He's a soft **** with more talent than anyone on our list but he's a pea-heart that pisses the bed if his mum turns the lights out. Potential is only potential for so long and then it's a waste of talent.

Not sure what you're trying to prove there, but I know you have far more intelligence than you just expressed.

 

[BrutThough]

Long constantly shirks contests.

Even from Japan watching on the net I can tell that's a whopping exaggeration.

His intent for the ball was so small, he probably didnt even make it on screen.
Every supporter in my area saw it though.

 

[VDS66]

Still no idea why we are even comparing Clarko to Richo. Its like comparing Plugger to Paddy.

I think you and Paddy have a lot in common..

 

[Diehard Saint]

I’ll be there

I'll be there.
I go to every home game and most away games in Melbourne that I can go to. Occasionally I travel ( and wasn't Launceston last year worth it!) I would never consider not going unless I had something else on that I had to attend.

Sucker for punishment? Maybe. But that's what I call supporting a team.

 

[Mindtraveller]

Trading out players for the sake of it?

No, more not knowing how good it is until someone else wants it. If that's makes sense

 

[gringo2011]

Get real mate. Stop projecting. Billings is better than both of them were at his age. It takes time to develop.
If he fixes his goal kicking he will be up there.

95% of the players were abysmal in that game. Maybe it's the coaching or club leaders that need to be looked at because they aren't developing the right qualities into these players or inspiring them to fight and win.

You tell me not to project.....then tell me to project into the future because at his age the others were spuds. Daniel Rich looked like he’d be the best player in history in his first couple of years. Potential is only cute for a while then you have to turn up with the real stuff. Spencer White could tell you all about the potential he had. Billings did some poor things in that game and he’s going to have to earn my respect back.

 

[gringo2011]

Even for you, that's a stupid post. You should be embarrassed.

what ever I’m embarrassed for you and your fanboy love.

 

[Hayes4PM]

Agree mate (and yes I am sh***y too). Even though I got torched for saying this a bit last year, Sandy's results bring home how little depth we actually have (separate to what people hope it will become).

After April last year we beat one full time AFL aligned side (and we had one of the AFL's shortest injury lists). In the end we finished 11th in a 14 team comp where 2 teams were not close to VFL standard. So there is nothing wrong with a bit of a cleanout (especially when players become a known quantity).

Personally I would be inclined to give anyone born post 94 (those 23 and under next year) a little more time. That might save players like McKenzie, Phillips, Lonie and Freeman (even with injuries considered).

Below is our list born 1994 and before (the known quantities I mentioned above). That is 21 players. Of that I would consider Steven, Robbo, Carlisle, Ross and Membery untouchable, and Bruce, Newnes and Webb core players. Geary is the captain so he makes the safe list too.

But that is only 9 safe out of 21. To me, any of the rest are either tradeable, replaceable or delistable. Of course you don't move them all. We are not Melbourne. But for me that is 12 genuinely replaceable players before we even look at delisting the half a dozen or so battling to survive from the 23 and under group.

Gilbert, Sam
Armitage, David
Geary, Jarryn
Brown, Nathan
Steven, Jack
Savage, Shane
Hickey, Tom
Stevens, Koby
Roberton, Dylan
Carlisle, Jake
Weller, Maverick
Bruce, Josh
Newnes, Jack
Ross, Sebastian
Longer, Billy
Webster, Jimmy
Minchington, Darren
Wright, Nathan
Membrey, Tim
Connellan, Ray
Pierce, Lewis

Agree, although I'd rather not trade Savage unless it was a good deal, he's come good recently.

 

[borderbarry]

I was'nt at the game, but Long to me seemed to be trying, which is more than you can say for a lot of them.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

A good coach will turn players into good leaders.

Have a look at the side he took to a flag in 2008. He didn’t have premiership players in each line back then. He turned them into great leaders.

He had Crawf at the twighlight of his career and brought Dew back from retirement and then he created great leaders like Hodge and Mitchell.

The fact we don’t have any good leaders is a reflection on our coaching staff IMO.

Why aren’t Roberton, Ross, Steven, Carlisle, Bruce able to do this? Isn’t part of our drafting plan to recruit good leaders? Seems this is getting lost somewhere.

And as for Sloane making a huge difference, I don’t entirely agree. He has shown time and again he struggled to shake a tag. Got smashed in the second half of the grand final when they put a tag on him. He would find it tough with a weaker midfield around him.

Leadership will help no doubt, but we are that far off that pace that one player is not going to be the difference between us contending and not. Improvement needs to come within if we are ever going to get close.

are you for real .... they had Crafw running the mids Guerra in the backline Stewie Dew up front , they had Croad as a seasoned campaigner and this handy liitl player in Buddy who had just won the coleman.. the year earlier they had made the finals falling short in week two most of their team had finals experiance , they ended up over shooting expectation with the flag but they were far advanced as a team as to where we are now

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

alot of those guys werent leaders on day 1

where as a bunch of our guys did have high potential for leadership. they were captains etc.

the difference is one set of players developed into great players and great leaders

our blokes havent taken the next step into consistently good players let alone great ones or great leaders

but who have they had around them ? we had roo and Joey passing on what they know but its that missing gap of players we are struggling with right now who are our 200 gamers ?

 

[borderbarry]

We have suffered from the lack of players in the age range for years now. It goes back to Ross Lyons time. And it is still affecting us.

 

[StCicatriz]

but who have they had around them ? we had roo and Joey passing on what they know but its that missing gap of players we are struggling with right now who are our 200 gamers ?

who did hodge, mitchell, sewell, lewis, roughead etc. have around them

burgoyne is a perfect example here. he was very quiet. turned into a great leader.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

you're looking at the finished product and many iterations of what clarko has done

how did clarko get it to that point, yet we cant

look at how many young players he had when he first started at hawthorn

lets compare apples with apples ... Clarkson took 3 years to build his team in an era without compromised drafts he also got the handy leg up from Fremantle in that period .. our rebuild came in compromised drafts with a lot less to work with so yeah we are further behind hawthorn but it has been a fair bit harder trek for us

 

[StCicatriz]

are you for real .... they had Crafw running the mids Guerra in the backline Stewie Dew up front , they had Croad as a seasoned campaigner and this handy liitl player in Buddy who had just won the coleman.. the year earlier they had made the finals falling short in week two most of their team had finals experiance , they ended up over shooting expectation with the flag but they were far advanced as a team as to where we are now

buddy was drafted by hawthorn when clarko joined

crawford = montagna
dew = schneider
guera = geary
croad = carlisle

but we still had players like roo there

i'm sorry but this excuse doesnt wash with me at all

clarko had as much at his disposal as when richo joined, i mean the whole list strategy was a carbon copy from pelchens experience with hawthorn/port with some tweaks made to it for free agency etc.

here's the big difference though:
"The Hawks continued to improve in 2007, winning 13 games and finishing fifth on the premiership table"

thats clarko's third season. richo couldnt crack the 8 after 4 seasons in. doesnt look like doing it this year, 5 seasons later. clarko had a flag by then.

 

[VDS66]

P

lets compare apples with apples ... Clarkson took 3 years to build his team in an era without compromised drafts he also got the handy leg up from Fremantle in that period .. our rebuild came in compromised drafts with a lot less to work with so yeah we are further behind hawthorn but it has been a fair bit harder trek for us

Pretty sure the Hawks did a lot of their rebuild before Clarko came along.

 

[StCicatriz]

lets compare apples with apples ... Clarkson took 3 years to build his team in an era without compromised drafts he also got the handy leg up from Fremantle in that period .. our rebuild came in compromised drafts with a lot less to work with so yeah we are further behind hawthorn but it has been a fair bit harder trek for us

cuts both ways. clarko also didnt have free agency, the ability to stock pile cap credits, the ability to future trade. the ability to syphon off talent from home sick sydney/queensland talent. he had to defeat a side that had the very relaxed father son rules.

i think the argument that richo is on par with clarko here isnt going to wash with anyone. stinks of excuses.

oh and btw the compromised drafts were over by the team richo got there

oh and all these new draft set backs didnt stop the dogs.

 

[StCicatriz]

P

Pretty sure the Hawks did a lot of their rebuild before Clarko came along.

half the 2008 GF side was pre clarko

my bet is half the side against north on the weekend was pre richo

 

[STK2020]

I have a feeling if we didnt move on Goddard & McEvoy and gave Riewoldt one more season and we didnt try be the smartest club at draft nights , we could be looking at a lot stronger club atm .
All what ifs

 

[SaintSteele9]

His intent for the ball was so small, he probably didnt even make it on screen.
Every supporter in my area saw it though.

The somewhat paranoid theorist in me wonders if this is a demonstration of coaching suppressing natural intent? We all know Longy’s “role” is pressure etc., but not to the point of hunting an opposition ball-carrier instead of a loose ball surely...

 

[gringo2011]

buddy was drafted by hawthorn when clarko joined

crawford = montagna
dew = schneider
guera = geary
croad = carlisle

but we still had players like roo there

i'm sorry but this excuse doesnt wash with me at all

clarko had as much at his disposal as when richo joined, i mean the whole list strategy was a carbon copy from pelchens experience with hawthorn/port with some tweaks made to it for free agency etc.

here's the big difference though:
"The Hawks continued to improve in 2007, winning 13 games and finishing fifth on the premiership table"

thats clarko's third season. richo couldnt crack the 8 after 4 seasons in. doesnt look like doing it this year, 5 seasons later. clarko had a flag by then.

I think that’s the list to be honest.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

who did hodge, mitchell, sewell, lewis, roughead etc. have around them

burgoyne is a perfect example here. he was very quiet. turned into a great leader.

going off the hawthorn list these guys :
2004
1 Peter Everitt 29yr 194 Games AA: 1997, 1998
2 Nick Holland 29yr 163 Games
3 Jonathan Hay 24yr 119 Games AA: 2001
4 Rayden Tallis 28yr 156 Games
7 Luke McCabe 27yr 132 Games
9 Shane Crawford 29yr 222 Games AA: 1996, 1998, 1999, 2002; Brownlow: 1999; MVP: 1999;
11 Joel Smith 26yr 143 games AA: 2001, 2003
21 Richard Vandenberg 27yr 83 Games
27 John Barker 29yr 145 Games
37 Angelo Lekkas 27yr 149 Games

2005 :
1 Peter Everitt
2 Nick Holland
9 Shane Crawford
27 John Barker
20 Simon Beaumont
37 Angelo Lekkas
21 Richard Vandenberg
11 Joel Smith

2006:
1 Peter Everitt
9 Shane Crawford
27 John Barker
21 Richard Vandenberg
11 Joel Smith
19 Ben Dixon

thats fair bit to learn off ... and as they were retiring the next level down were stepping up .. at the moment we dont have that at all

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

buddy was drafted by hawthorn when clarko joined

crawford = montagna
dew = schneider
guera = geary
croad = carlisle

but we still had players like roo there

i'm sorry but this excuse doesnt wash with me at all

clarko had as much at his disposal as when richo joined, i mean the whole list strategy was a carbon copy from pelchens experience with hawthorn/port with some tweaks made to it for free agency etc.

here's the big difference though:
"The Hawks continued to improve in 2007, winning 13 games and finishing fifth on the premiership table"

thats clarko's third season. richo couldnt crack the 8 after 4 seasons in. doesnt look like doing it this year, 5 seasons later. clarko had a flag by then.

but you are looking at footy in 2008 to footy 10 years later the draft was not compromised back then .. im not discrediting Hawthorn they have done a spectacular job but we have had multiple roadblocks infront of us that hawthorn hasnt had .. the task of Richo has been harder than that of the task Clarko had .. not saying it was easy for clarko but it was easier than what Richo walked into

 

[gringo2011]

half the 2008 GF side was pre clarko

my bet is half the side against north on the weekend was pre richo

I think we only have about 6 players from pre Richo era. Gilbert and Hickey are some of them. Richmond rebuilt at the same time And failed getting players like Tambling instead of buddy. Bad recruiting makes bad coaches.

 

[Stewart66]

Too many shit trucks on our list and one eyed Saints fans. Remember when Brodie Murdoch, Josh Saunders, Tom Ledger and Eli Templeton were all going to come good and just needed time? Well there’s some more to add to that list, had enough time and haven’t proven to be quality AFL players.

Years end I think we need to move on;

Wright
Pierce
Freeman
McKenzie
Minchington

Minch and McKenzie have each played a few games that looked good but at the end of the day we’re few and far between. Why we would not look at trading in more than 1 young player (who isn’t even a starting 22 player) in the last trade period is beyond me.

At this stage White and Rice have gone past McKenzie and you would want them playing a few games this year.

Freeman is just an injury bust, fair play to recruiters taking a punt of pick 28 or whatever it was on an injured gun mid (something we’re crying out for) but times up.

Rebuild is over, should be in finals by now, last year was stagnant and this year could be going backwards. Our list managers deserve to be raked over the coals for some of their decisions and non-decisions IMO.


(Yes I am still shitty after that Friday game for anyone wondering)

With respect it should include Brown , Gilbert , Hickey , Stevens in that group.
and pay out Armo ....problem is some bright spark in recruiting left us stuff all picks in next years draft.

Only hope is adding Sloane, Gaff .