List Mgmt. 2018 St Kilda Trade Thread Part 1

[st_trav_ofWA]

Really not sure what this Clarko v Richo is all about. No brainer really.

If we had a choice between the two at the time and we chose Richo then fair enough. Even then differenterent lists would yield different outcomes.

You can pull teams, lists and coaches out of your arse to find examples that suit your argument.

And none of it does anything to address our problems.

Hawks were absolute shizen for most of the nighties... They were such a basket case they tried to merge them. They changed coaches... But it wasn't until they got their list right that they tasted success.

They deliberately traded players for picks then topped up where required.

Combine that with landing a good coach and the rest is history.

If we want to go all historical, we didn't churn enough after 10/11.

We then hit compromised drafts, combined with shit recruiting under Lyon.

In 2012 we had some cream players and nothing else. A massive chasm in our list.

We are now at the other extreme.

Unfortunately you simply cannot make instant changes and any radical changes can only be made at years end.

Thats why I keep saying that you have to wait and see how the year plays out before understanding where the weaknesses are.

exactly this !!! im not saying Clarko vs Richo ... in that situation Clarko by a country mile .. what im saying is Hawthorn had the ground work in place for Clarko to be successful.. for Richo the ghosts of poor drafts in 09 10 11 and even 12 are still haunting and any coach with that issue would have a big problem (even Clarko)

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

100% for real.

Croad was an average footballer at Freo and became a very good backman when he went back to Hawthorn, he was hardly a leader at Freo. Guerra was traded away from us as a forward pocket who wasn’t at all what I would call a leader at St Kilda. They became leaders at Hawthorn.

Mentioning a 21 year old Buddy Franklin just helps prove my point. Clarkson and his coaching staff were able to turn guys like Buddy, Hodge, Lewis, Mitchell, Roughead etc into very strong leaders. None of those guys had to be brought in from other clubs did they?

And I’m not saying we don’t look at brining in leaders, but one isn’t going to all of a sudden shoot us into contention.

where did i say it brought us into contention ?
i said Sloane bring a leadership we are desperate for ... but thats not going to fix the issue in itself ... the thing it can do is with a true leader like Sloane guys like Steven wont be asked to be something they are not, guys like Dunstan who has leadership writen all over him can absorb from him. guys like our young brigade will learn from him stuff Geary ahs not experianced ...

 

[bird_man]

where did i say it brought us into contention ?
i said Sloane bring a leadership we are desperate for ... but thats not going to fix the issue in itself ... the thing it can do is with a true leader like Sloane guys like Steven wont be asked to be something they are not, guys like Dunstan who has leadership writen all over him can absorb from him. guys like our young brigade will learn from him stuff Geary ahs not experianced ...

I’m going off your original post where you said we shouldn’t get Gaff because he won’t put us into contention but we should go for Sloane.

As I said, neither will put us into contention but both will improve our side. If we can get Sloane, great. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t go after Gaff.

It doesn’t have to be a Gaff v Sloane, we should be going after both because there’s a huge chance one or both will say no.

 

[bird_man]

Ollie Wines is someone that hasn’t been talked about near enough.

Would walk in and be ready to captain the club IMO. WOuld cost an arm and a leg but he’d be worth it.

 

[soups1982]

Ollie Wines is someone that hasn’t been talked about near enough.

Would walk in and be ready to captain the club IMO. WOuld cost an arm and a leg but he’d be worth it.

Great idea, but I don't see why he would want to leave Port.. would be a great club to be playing at.

 

[StCicatriz]

Ollie Wines is someone that hasn’t been talked about near enough.

Would walk in and be ready to captain the club IMO. WOuld cost an arm and a leg but he’d be worth it.

Spot on.

 

[StCicatriz]

now move that to year 4 .... we got no-one over 200 games ... the only two with finals experiance is Gilbo and Brown now lets look at it in the way of who these players are from our list we have one player who is an assistant coach . Hawthorn have John Barker who coached Carlton for a intrim Stewart Dew now coaching GCS , Guerra is now at Freo.. we had the top end leadership but the next level down you only have Armo and Gears ... and now they are the top of that tree ... Clarkson is a great coach who develops leaders but without them then he comes back in the pack.. Richo is trying to build leaders but with that experiance gap he is asking more of guys who are less capable at the moment

Year 4 Hawthorn had a flag... They had already made finals in year 3.

You're moving the goal posts now. To try and suit the argument.

You said Richo didn't have the leaders and experience at his disposal when he came into the club and proceeded to outline Hawthorns list when clarko took over. I did the same for our club and there is no real difference. It's very comparable.

The funny thing is we almost made finals in year 3. Finishing 9th. Although Hawthorn made the top 6. So we got close. Then it's fallen off in a big way. Which happens with sides when it fails.

Can you think of another side with a similar progression?

I don't buy the without the leaders clarko falls back to the pack argument. He's shown he can go through multiple iterations, from rebuilding from nothing like us, to rejigging, to completely changing the game plan and structure to now going through another build.

Richo hasn't even demonstrated getting passed the first iteration that clarko achieves in year 3!!!!

But to answer your question:
Year 4: Stk 3 vs Hfc4

But what is telling is we have a lot more players and I do mean a lot more with more than 100 games of experience. So we had more in that next group down. Players like Steven savage Armitage Gilbert Brown Geary roberton

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

Ollie Wines is someone that hasn’t been talked about near enough.

Would walk in and be ready to captain the club IMO. WOuld cost an arm and a leg but he’d be worth it.

Agreed, he is a jet. Smart young guy too. Really understands the game if you listen to his interviews.

 

[bird_man]

Great idea, but I don't see why he would want to leave Port.. would be a great club to be playing at.

A million dollars a year would be the only reason I could think of. Very unlikely though I agree.

 

[Yawkey way]

Drafting/recruiting has failed to deliver what we need to be a genuine top 8 team to this point in time.

I am still hopeful that several guys will still make the grade and this years crop could well be a ripper so all is not lost.

Paddy, Goddard and freeman to a lesser extent have hurt us badly but they still have this year to turn things around, if they all fail to make an impact then that's a body blow.

Recruiting ruckman with high picks is a mugs game, I watched longer in the under 18's and projecting that skinny kid who really didn't do much around the ground even then is a tough ask. The bargain bin for ruckmen has been pretty productive as have some late picks.

How many players do we need to turn this side around?. How much would a couple of A graders like Wines lift the players around them?.

I remember years ago on world of sport David Parkin responding to a loss to the saints said that the difference between the top and bottom teams was 3 or 4 stars.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

I’m going off your original post where you said we shouldn’t get Gaff because he won’t put us into contention but we should go for Sloane.

As I said, neither will put us into contention but both will improve our side. If we can get Sloane, great. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t go after Gaff.

It doesn’t have to be a Gaff v Sloane, we should be going after both because there’s a huge chance one or both will say no.

both would help a lot but the biggest priority in my opinion is a leader who can win the contested ball not the outside runner ... of course we go after both but Sloane should be priority 1

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Ollie Wines is someone that hasn’t been talked about near enough.

Would walk in and be ready to captain the club IMO. WOuld cost an arm and a leg but he’d be worth it.

that would be a great get but i cant see it happening

 

[VDS66]

I would trade both Paddy and Bruce for Lynch.

If Paddy makes it at another team good luck to him.

At least we are getting a bone fide star in return.

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

Recruiting ruckman with high picks is a mugs game, I watched longer in the under 18's and projecting that skinny kid who really didn't do much around the ground even then is a tough ask. The bargain bin for ruckmen has been pretty productive as have some late picks.

With Goldstein back in favour, could it be a chance to shake Preuss free? North aren't playing him and aren't flag contenders so he may be looking for game time elsewhere? Would drastically improve the ruck situation without costing too much. Still leaves plenty of room to chase much needed stars.

 

[F_therest]

exactly this !!! im not saying Clarko vs Richo ... in that situation Clarko by a country mile .. what im saying is Hawthorn had the ground work in place for Clarko to be successful.. for Richo the ghosts of poor drafts in 09 10 11 and even 12 are still haunting and any coach with that issue would have a big problem (even Clarko)

How do you know it's not development rather than recruiting. Likely bit of both.

Maybe the likes of Hodge, buddy, roughead, Lewis etc would never have become the stars they are now had they been drafted now to st kilda under Richardson, or back in 2004 by a team like Richmond or Carlton.

 

[F_therest]

With Goldstein back in favour, could it be a chance to shake Preuss free? North aren't playing him and aren't flag contenders so he may be looking for game time elsewhere? Would drastically improve the ruck situation without costing too much. Still leaves plenty of room to chase much needed stars.

Any team after a ruxkman should be going hard at preuss.

Could be similar to nankervis who wasn't getting a game then became a solid premiership ruckman.

Shouldn't cost much either pick in the 30s tops.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Year 4 Hawthorn had a flag... They had already made finals in year 3.

You're moving the goal posts now. To try and suit the argument.

You said Richo didn't have the leaders and experience at his disposal when he came into the club and proceeded to outline Hawthorns list when clarko took over. I did the same for our club and there is no real difference. It's very comparable.

The funny thing is we almost made finals in year 3. Finishing 9th. Although Hawthorn made the top 6. So we got close. Then it's fallen off in a big way. Which happens with sides when it fails.

Can you think of another side with a similar progression?

I don't buy the without the leaders clarko falls back to the pack argument. He's shown he can go through multiple iterations, from rebuilding from nothing like us, to rejigging, to completely changing the game plan and structure to now going through another build.

Richo hasn't even demonstrated getting passed the first iteration that clarko achieves in year 3!!!!

But to answer your question:
Year 4: Stk 3 vs Hfc4

But what is telling is we have a lot more players and I do mean a lot more with more than 100 games of experience. So we had more in that next group down. Players like Steven savage Armitage Gilbert Brown Geary roberton

again it isnt about who can build a better list or who is the better coach obviously Clarkson has richo's measure by a long way on that the thing i am saying with the exact same 22 that ran out on the weekend i dont think Clarkson would have got the Win with the boys playing the way they did .. dont get me wrong Richo has been beaten tactically before but it was desire, skills and effort that killed us on Friday and for that i ask the question who were our leaders on field to step up and take control of the situation ? Geary didnt , Steven didnt, Bruce didnt to me the team started to play as individuals to make sure their numbers were good enough to avoid critisim but it wasnt the stuff to drag the team over the line .. in the past Roo , Lenny , BJ none of these guys would have accepted what the guys were dishing out .. if hawthorn dished out that then their leaders Roughy, Burgoyne, Rioli, Breust and McEvoy would not have accepted that ..

 

[CALL ME SNAKE]

Clarko was an assistant at the Saints during the Timmy Watson era ( maybe that should read error not era ).
Apparently he jumped at the chance to leave and go to Port for another assist job and couldnt get out of Moorabbin quick enough.
Lot of water under the bridge since then but it would have to be the biggest paypacket ever to lure him back i reckon.
Dont like the chances of it ever happening even though he is exactly what we need.

 

[StCicatriz]

again it isnt about who can build a better list or who is the better coach obviously Clarkson has richo's measure by a long way on that the thing i am saying with the exact same 22 that ran out on the weekend i dont think Clarkson would have got the Win with the boys playing the way they did .. dont get me wrong Richo has been beaten tactically before but it was desire, skills and effort that killed us on Friday and for that i ask the question who were our leaders on field to step up and take control of the situation ? Geary didnt , Steven didnt, Bruce didnt to me the team started to play as individuals to make sure their numbers were good enough to avoid critisim but it wasnt the stuff to drag the team over the line .. in the past Roo , Lenny , BJ none of these guys would have accepted what the guys were dishing out .. if hawthorn dished out that then their leaders Roughy, Burgoyne, Rioli, Breust and McEvoy would not have accepted that ..

see thats where we differ i think. i dont think the guys would have put that effort in under clarko at hawthorn. if they did it would be extremely rare and i think this list would be playing finals, two seasons ago in 2016.

i dont think its the list. the list is good. i think the players are a product of their environment and coaching.

 

[StCicatriz]

Clarko was an assistant at the Saints during the Timmy Watson era ( maybe that should read error not era ).
Apparently he jumped at the chance to leave and go to Port for another assist job and couldnt get out of Moorabbin quick enough.
Lot of water under the bridge since then but it would have to be the biggest paypacket ever to lure him back i reckon.
Dont like the chances of it ever happening even though he is exactly what we need.

good point. sadly we dont have a very good reputation inside the industry

 

[VDS66]

good point. sadly we dont have a very good reputation inside the industry

And that just goes to show how far off the pace we have been and from how far back we are coming from.

Our rebuild wasn't only about players... It's the entire club from the admin down. It explains why we have chosen stability.

Then you have the unexpected speed bumps along the way. We are far from the complete package.

If anything we were overly optimistic in our projection of success.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

good point. sadly we dont have a very good reputation inside the industry

exactly our history is filled with coaches thrown on the scrap heap ... why would any "in Demand" coach even consider coming to us ? you could say thats all history but its still fresh the whole fall out on Lyon leaving.. then Watters sacking (even though justified), the Choco Williams offer then retraction or offer and then a sacking of Richo ... you would have to be mad to think St Kilda is a good prospect to coach at ...
for all his faults we simply must keep Richo , we cant afford another sacking, another re-start, another "st Kilda being St Kilda"... what we can do though is surround him with the best assistants

 

[VDS66]

Drafting/recruiting has failed to deliver what we need to be a genuine top 8 team to this point in time.

I am still hopeful that several guys will still make the grade and this years crop could well be a ripper so all is not lost.

Paddy, Goddard and freeman to a lesser extent have hurt us badly but they still have this year to turn things around, if they all fail to make an impact then that's a body blow.

Recruiting ruckman with high picks is a mugs game, I watched longer in the under 18's and projecting that skinny kid who really didn't do much around the ground even then is a tough ask. The bargain bin for ruckmen has been pretty productive as have some late picks.

How many players do we need to turn this side around?. How much would a couple of A graders like Wines lift the players around them?.

I remember years ago on world of sport David Parkin responding to a loss to the saints said that the difference between the top and bottom teams was 3 or 4 stars.

And everyone we get wrong, it sets us back.

Same with most teams.

 

[VDS66]

exactly our history is filled with coaches thrown on the scrap heap ... why would any "in Demand" coach even consider coming to us ? you could say thats all history but its still fresh the whole fall out on Lyon leaving.. then Watters sacking (even though justified), the Choco Williams offer then retraction or offer and then a sacking of Richo ... you would have to be mad to think St Kilda is a good prospect to coach at ...
for all his faults we simply must keep Richo , we cant afford another sacking, another re-start, another "st Kilda being St Kilda"... what we can do though is surround him with the best assistants

The key to success for any organisation stems from the management.

The right board makes good decisions in terms of personel.

This has a flow on effect down the line.

The current lit have done so much right during its tenure. And made mistakes but the good outweighs the bad in terms of professionalism and stability.

So we are getting there. It's been a massive cultural and operational shift in dynamics.

We have a history of great players and handy coaches, yet we haven't won a flag mainly due to moronic decisions from the top.

Hopefully those days are now behind us.

 

[Joffaboy]

exactly our history is filled with coaches thrown on the scrap heap ... why would any "in Demand" coach even consider coming to us ? you could say thats all history but its still fresh the whole fall out on Lyon leaving.. then Watters sacking (even though justified), the Choco Williams offer then retraction or offer and then a sacking of Richo ... you would have to be mad to think St Kilda is a good prospect to coach at ...
for all his faults we simply must keep Richo , we cant afford another sacking, another re-start, another "st Kilda being St Kilda"... what we can do though is surround him with the best assistants

This is fair.

It sounds typical St.Kilda dreaming about a saviour coach.
Cant remember Clarko being the saviour after we beat them by 75 points last year.

But I do see and understand the angst. We have been asked since 2012 to be patient.
Well we had high hopes this year but so far they have been gravely disappointing.

We have been patient and now want to see improvement.

I always wondered how we could rebuild during compromised drafts. Well it looks like it was pretty hard.

Am as disappointed as the rest here but there are 21 more rounds.

Imagine how Hawks and Sydney fan felt after 6 rounds ladt season.

We arent either of those two teams but we arent the team we saw on Friday.

At our best we are a 6-8 team. But thats it. Without aome top end talent we will not get much higher than that.

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