The tall defender dilemma

[ferrisb]

Play Weitering on the wing.

Weiterwing.....

 

[Soapy V]

No.17

Docherty Weitering Marchbank Plowman
Cuningham Macreadie Williamson

 

[Soapy V]

Weiterwing.....

You idiot

 

[Arr0w]

At least for now those GWS guys are much more versatile than our tall defenders.

I'm not really in love with GWS' defence anyway. I think Richmond's defence last year had much more balance.

GF defenders

Rance 194
Grimes 193
Astbury 195
McIntosh 191
Broad 192

 

[gardiner stand]

Get the balance right, select the best, form/ability.

Current best back 7
B: Marchbank Jones Docherty
HB: Williamson Rowe Simpson
IC: Byrne
EM: Plowman Silvagni Cuningham Mullett

Future best back 7
B: Marchbank Macreadie Docherty
HB: Williamson Weitering Byrne
IC: Cuningham
EM: Plowman Schumacher Mullett

I think Plowman Silvagni and Marchbank are probably fighting for that same 3rd tall position or to fill in for the first or 2nd tall if injured. We tend to be a little taller which is ok but we need our midfield to be defensive and apply pressure and force it wide.

Docherty quite easily played in the midfield if our attacking running defenders really come on.

Our tall back depth is one of few areas of our list that's decent.

I like your future back 7 except what I’ve seen of Byrne this year doesn’t really fill me with much optimism. In couple of years we may unearth another like a Schumacher.
Plowman also concerns me,not sure he can be that in between player that can play on talks and stalls. He seems to be able to do the job now and then but he always looks vulnerable to me.

 

[Arr0w]

By my calculations we have 17 tall KPP/Ruck players on our list. Out of 44 that looks heaps to me

13 I believe Soap. You can't call 3rd talls KPP/Ruckmen

Andrew Phillips 203 99
Levi Casboult 201 103
Matthew Lobbe 200 96
Matthew Kreuzer 200 101
Harry McKay 200 95
Tom De Koning 200 89
Sam Rowe 199 98
Liam Jones 198 98
Harrison Macreadie 196 89
Jesse Glass-McCasker 195 96
Jacob Weitering 195 96
Charlie Curnow 194 91
Pat Kerr 194 93

3rd talls

Cameron O'Shea 193 91
Caleb Marchbank 193 90
Alex Silvagni 192 92
Lachie Plowman 191 90
Jack Silvagni 191 89
Angus Schumacher 190 79

 

[gbatman]

I like your future back 7 except what I’ve seen of Byrne this year doesn’t really fill me with much optimism. In couple of years we may unearth another like a Schumacher.
Plowman also concerns me,not sure he can be that in between player that can play on talks and stalls. He seems to be able to do the job now and then but he always looks vulnerable to me.

Plowman is a decent player but I don't see him offering much run and attacking plays. Real lock down defender. You'd like a guy who can lock down really well but on occasion have a good offensive game too. Plowman could be quality depth, still probably good enough to play his role in a good side. I have room for players who defend strongly and rarely make mistakes but if you get a guy who can do a bit more then that's a bonus.

Byrne I think just needs games. I like how he takes it on, he does make a lot of mistakes but that's better than not finding the footy and not taking it on. I've seen a lot worse become real good players in time like Simpson who took a long time to make it as a player.

Schumacher has potential.

 

[Jabba73]

Plowman was a big part of a rock solid defence last season. So far this season, only him, Jones and Simpson have played every game. Weitering and Jones have been shadows of their former selves and we have lost defenders during games as well.

None have been at their best, yet Plowman is wearing the brunt of criticism about us leaking bigger scores while trying to attack more, play on both talls and smalls, all while organising a makeshift group of ever changing players.

In summary: Not enough love for Plowman

 

[smashbox gill]

IMO the coaches have seen Jones being an 'explosive beast' last season, and have trained him to be an intercept defender during the preseason. This is all well and good but last year he was excellent as a shut down gorilla stopping key defender. By giving him the licence to roam, has impacted marchbank and weitering as they play there natural games and the accountability of the key forward goes down as theres no one staying on him.

IMO thats why it worked so well last weekend with Rowe being that lockdown player. If Jones went back to that i think Marchbank and Weitering would thrive once more.

 

[PP34]

GF defenders

Rance 194
Grimes 193
Astbury 195
McIntosh 191
Broad 192

Rance is obviously incredibly versatile, Astbury is a good one on one defender, Grimes plays the third tall role well and was pretty versatile last year, had Betts in the granny. Broad is also fairly versatile.

McIntosh lined up on the wing in the GF and throughout the season, certainly wouldn't call him a defender.

I haven't seen much versatility from any of our talls.

 

[Arr0w]

Rance is obviously incredibly versatile, Astbury is a good one on one defender, Grimes plays the third tall role well and was pretty versatile last year, had Betts in the granny. Broad is also fairly versatile.

McIntosh lined up on the wing in the GF and throughout the season, certainly wouldn't call him a defender.

I haven't seen much versatility from any of our talls.

Put them in a Tigers midfield and the result might surprise you. As you saw, the Tigers had 5 tall defenders in that GF, so there is no reason to suggest, that we can't do the same as out midfield improves

 

[F_therest]

Put them in a Tigers midfield and the result might surprise you. As you saw, the Tigers had 5 tall defenders in that GF, so there is no reason to suggest, that we can't do the same as out midfield improves

They may be over 190cm but Broad and McIntosh are not key position players, they are tall running players.

We have Plowman who is around 191cm but his play style is key position...he's not a runner like Williamson, who is also over 190cm.

That's the imbalance...really we have 4 key position defenders, Richmond had 3.

 

[CJMB]

You can probably break our 8 192cm+ defenders into 3 categories:

Short term (gone this year or next):

1. ASOS - 192cm, 30 years old
2. Rowe - 198cm, 30
3. O'Shea - 193cm, 26
4. Glass-McCasker - 198cm, 21

Medium term (2-4 years):

1. Jones - 198cm, 27

Long term (8-10 years):

1. Marchbank - 193cm, 21
2. Weitering - 195cm, 20
3. Macreadie - 195cm, 20

I'm not counting Plowman (191cm), Williamson (190cm) or Schumacher (190cm) as tall defenders, and I probably shouldn't have put O'Shea in that list above for the same reason (not that it matters that much considering he's a short term player).

My guess is we lose 2-4 this year, depending on if Rowe and ASOS are fit and in the best 22 come round 23. I'm not worried about our tall stocks. If anything they might look to pick up a project player in the next year or two to develop underneath March, Weit and Mac.

 

[LordLucifer]

Plowman & Jones to be traded, Rowe & A. Silvagni to retire.

 

[JustaBattler]

Plowman was a big part of a rock solid defence last season. So far this season, only him, Jones and Simpson have played every game. Weitering and Jones have been shadows of their former selves and we have lost defenders during games as well.

None have been at their best, yet Plowman is wearing the brunt of criticism about us leaking bigger scores while trying to attack more, play on both talls and smalls, all while organising a makeshift group of ever changing players.

In summary: Not enough love for Plowman

I don't think he has filled the Docherty role which was what was signaled by the Club when they promoted him to leadership group - I would say that he has consistently failed to help out when required - probably because he doesn't read the game nearly as well as Marchbank or Weitering. We lack rebound capability back there either from run or kick - Plowman isn't in my mind an answer to the serious questions about building a top4 defensive capability down back. getting tired of watching Simpson take 99% of kick ins and repeat the same move over and over again - so predictable and in large part the cause of repeat 50 entries that the backs have to defend against at disadvantage.

Carlton has to find 2 runners to join the right 4 taller players down back. Plowman isn't a runner and isn't a tall and isn't a great kick either - he plays more like a defensive wing - without the running capacity or kicking ability to play at super high standards.

 

[Soapy V]

Plowman & Jones to be traded, Rowe & A. Silvagni to retire.

LL What odds will you give me that they will all be on our list in 2019? [emoji6]

 

[Soapy V]

I don't think he has filled the Docherty role which was what was signaled by the Club when they promoted him to leadership group - I would say that he has consistently failed to help out when required - probably because he doesn't read the game nearly as well as Marchbank or Weitering. We lack rebound capability back there either from run or kick - Plowman isn't in my mind an answer to the serious questions about building a top4 defensive capability down back. getting tired of watching Simpson take 99% of kick ins and repeat the same move over and over again - so predictable and in large part the cause of repeat 50 entries that the backs have to defend against at disadvantage.

Carlton has to find 2 runners to join the right 4 taller players down back. Plowman isn't a runner and isn't a tall and isn't a great kick either - he plays more like a defensive wing - without the running capacity or kicking ability to play at super high standards.

Cuningham Byrne Schumacher are options but need to establish themselves. Garlett is like to see play that role as well

To have Garlett Cuningham Willo & Doc running out of defence would be exciting and a real weapon. Ball use would be incredible

 

[smashbox gill]

I seriously dont know how people dont give Plowman credit. Has been our most reliable defender the last 2 years. Is cemented best 22 and will be for a long time. He brings to our defence that Ben Stratton type player who can play both small and tall

 

[Coops93]

Wasn't there talk in the off-season around Plowman maybe getting a run in the middle? I'm sure I read that in some report. I guess Doc being injured changed that idea. Still, there's a though he's versatile enough to handle it.

Weitering (195) and Marchbank (193) will be the key defenders, maybe Macreadie (195) as well. 2 man on man with 1 intercept, probably rolling on/off depending on field position.

Plowman (191), Doc (185), Williamson (189) and Byrne (187) the medium defenders with Plowman pinch hitting as a tall from time to time. Williamson, Doc and Byrne can move up the field.

Seems plenty versatile to me.

 

[Coops93]

I seriously dont know how people dont give Plowman credit. Has been our most reliable defender the last 2 years. Is cemented best 22 and will be for a long time. He brings to our defence that Ben Stratton type player who can play both small and tall

He's been given the tough job of playing the medium/small forwards, which is tough for a 191 cm defender, yet has done it very well.

Still, it seems like someone has to be maligned irrespective of the reality, and Plowman is that guy.

 

[HBF]

Easily solved. Retire ASOS & Rowe and trade Jones. Done. Next puzzle to solve?

Not sure its that simple. Rowe kept Kennedy to just one goal over the weekend and Jones found some form finally. Plus we can't throw our young defenders to the wolves every week.

 

[Soapy V]

I seriously dont know how people dont give Plowman credit. Has been our most reliable defender the last 2 years. Is cemented best 22 and will be for a long time. He brings to our defence that Ben Stratton type player who can play both small and tall

Agree but struggling at the moment IMO

 

[thylacine60]

Put them in a Tigers midfield and the result might surprise you. As you saw, the Tigers had 5 tall defenders in that GF, so there is no reason to suggest, that we can't do the same as out midfield improves

not sure of the relevance of this, cupidman - we don't have the caliber of their centre-line and by the time we do experimenting won't be as necessary

 

[Coona Blues]

Plowman & Jones to be traded, Rowe & A. Silvagni to retire.

LL What odds will you give me that they will all be on our list in 2019? [emoji6]

Would take that bet Soapy.............although see only ASOS as definitely gone.
Alex was brought in for senior body before Jones' renaissance. Body has always been an issue and continues to be
just that. Has served his purpose driving training standards etc and would hopefully move to a development coach
role.

We need to both free up list space and transition the list. I wouldn't be against testing the waters for a Jones
trade while we have Rowe as the pillar down back.

Three or four brackets re transition of list.

Silvagni, Rowe and Jones (O'shea as soon as contract allows) JGM gone as has not progressed sufficiently.
Thomas, Simpson and Murphy (perhaps add Ed to the tail end)
and the more difficult Lobbe, Casboult, Kreuzer and Phillips.
Perhaps add Lamb, Kerridge and Wright (with Little Nicky dead in the water) Too early to call Mullett and Shaw.

Would be ridiculous to flick Simpson, Thomas, Silvagni, Rowe, Lobbe/Phiilips and Casboult (maybe even Murph)
at the end of 2019. This would decimate the list dynamic as we prepare to contend. A couple need to go this
year, a couple next year and so on.

I see Graham, Lamb, Thomas and rookies Silvagni and Glass-McCasker as the logical exits, with questions on
a few more. I can see one or two retained, yet relegated to the rookie list to free up spots for approximately
five additions to primary list and one or two rookies.

Apologies for crossing threads.

 

[Arr0w]

They may be over 190cm but Broad and McIntosh are not key position players, they are tall running players.

We have Plowman who is around 191cm but his play style is key position...he's not a runner like Williamson, who is also over 190cm.

That's the imbalance...really we have 4 key position defenders, Richmond had 3.

This is where opinion is difficult, when you start segregating areas, rather than analyzing the collective. There is no right or wrong when it comes to height, it is about how it blends with skill set of players, gameplan and tactics. Despite, conjecture, there are no so called trends, the majority, if not all, will be based on best 22

not sure of the relevance of this, cupidman - we don't have the caliber of their centre-line and by the time we do experimenting won't be as necessary

And this where the conversation should start. As I mentioned above, it is not the number of talls or lack thereof. Yes you at least need 2 strong, KPP's, but after that, flankers can come in all shapes and sizes. To say we are too tall and not following the so called trends is also inaccurate.

Rance 194
Grimes 193
Astbury 195
McIntosh 191
Broad 192

Hamling 194
Roberts 196
Cordy 192
Morris 190

If we using the last 2 flag winners, the height of our backline, should not be a concern. Develop the list/group as a whole and these minor concerns will dissipate naturally. That's why I suggested, what would the outcome be if we replaced the Tiger's backline with ours. The outcome would surprise many