Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[GreyCrow]

Putting up a possibility
Richmond had a Horace Lyons play for them in 1903.
That is Horrie Lyons who played for Prahran from at least 1899 - 1903. and then back to Prahran in 1904, after Richmond.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article180224971 (1899 team photo)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165241036 (1901)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165402548 (1903)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165403204 (1904)

So my question is... would he possibly be the Harvey "Horrie" Lyons who played for Sth Melbourne in 1897, and then StKilda in 1898.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horrie_Lyons

Rhett

How does this help? I think its an interesting link.

1904 Horry Lyons is a dairyman. bottom of article http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165403204

1916 Linking Daughter Maisie (Vic BDM ) to Harvey Lyons http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article91168740 Port Melbourne address

1914 Ross St Address http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242295842

1913 Ross St and Dairyman link connected http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165164752

1911 'I am known to everybody in Port Melbourne' http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165164179

1911 Connecting Harvey to his father Matthias (Vic BDM ) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66389259

1903 Horry Playing for Richmond in the ruck http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article144681301

1904 Horry returns to Prahran http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165401159

It is indeed circumstantial but the 2 mentions of Horry and Harvey as a dairyman is too hard to ignore for me. (apologies for the back and forth on dates)

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

2.
But for the Horrie Lyons query I'm confident he is Prahran 1899 -1903, then Richmond 1903, then back to Prahran 1904.
Just the pre 1899 connection to Sth or Stk is what I'm looking for.

This article provides a link: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article228148913
Lowenthal played a good, serviceable game for Prahran, together with Johnston (the captain), Wainwright, Rust, and Lyons, an old St. Kildaite.

 

[GreyCrow]

This article provides a link: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article228148913
Lowenthal played a good, serviceable game for Prahran, together with Johnston (the captain), Wainwright, Rust, and Lyons, an old St. Kildaite.

Brilliant find

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

...
It is indeed circumstantial but the 2 mentions of Horry and Harvey as a dairyman is too hard to ignore for me.

I suspect he was indeed Harvey Lyons known as Horry based on the links you provided

He started at South Melb in the VFA in 1895 and the earliest ref to a given name I can find is in early 1896 where he is referred to as "Orry Lyons"
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108477974

 

[rbartlett]

Thanks to those who contributed in the posts regarding Horrie Lyons.
I've add his Sth, and StKilda years to his entry in the VFA players. Good work all round . This query can now be closed.
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=VFA+Players

 

[rbartlett]

Walter Johnston update (he's the *new* Richmond player in the 1908 season, after Alex Johnston went back to Nth).
Cheltenham FC archives have located 2 photos of him.
The first is him in the 1905 team photo (smack bang in the centre of the middle row - wearing the hoops guernsey).
And in the 1909 Cheltenham team photo he is front row, third from the left.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

I suspect he was indeed Harvey Lyons known as Horry based on the links you provided

He started at South Melb in the VFA in 1895 and the earliest ref to a given name I can find is in early 1896 where he is referred to as "Orry Lyons"
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108477974

...changed my mind....
looking on Ancestry I'm now thinking the player is likely to be Reginald Horace Lyons

Harvey Lyons was a grain merchant in all census records I can find and always lived in Port Melbourne

Reginald Horace Lyons was a dairyman living in Prahran in 1905 - see below


So while I think there was only one player (SM -> St K -> Prahran -> Richmond -> Prahran) I suspect he has been mis-identified and that it is actually Reginald Horace Lyons
born 1876 in Kyneton
died May 1921 in Brighton North see http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article1761258

 

[GreyCrow]

...changed my mind....
looking on Ancestry I'm now thinking the player is likely to be Reginald Horace Lyons

Harvey Lyons was a grain merchant in all census records I can find and always lived in Port Melbourne

Reginald Horace Lyons was a dairyman living in Prahran in 1905 - see below
View attachment 558238

So while I think there was only one player (SM -> St K -> Prahran -> Richmond -> Prahran) I suspect he has been mis-identified and that it is actually Reginald Horace Lyons
born 1876 in Kyneton
died May 1921 in Brighton North see http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article1761258

Can you find an entry for 1913 that says Harvey Lyons Dairyman as noted in the 1913 Standard?

Its ok rbartlett has cleared the addresses

 

[rbartlett]

...changed my mind....
looking on Ancestry I'm now thinking the player is likely to be Reginald Horace Lyons

So the address you've posted from the census in 1905, shows Reginald Horace at the same address (Wright Street) as the one mentioned in 1904 match report posted by Grey Crow https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165403204
That's pretty compelling that those two are the same person - which would mean Horrie is 'Reginald Horace'.
And than that makes Harvey Lyons simply, by coincidence, a person with the same surname and same occupation - but living in a completely different area.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Can you find an entry for 1913 that says Harvey Lyons Dairyman as noted in the 1913 Standard?

No - here is Harvey Lyon's 1913 record - a driver


here is Reginald Horace Lyons - somewhat frustratingly he is listed as a labourer in 1912 /1913 records rather than a dairyman

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

So the address you've posted from the census in 1905, shows Reginald Horace at the same address (Wright Street) as the one mentioned in 1904 match report posted by Grey Crow https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165403204
That's pretty compelling that those two are the same person - which would mean Horrie is 'Reginald Horace'.
And than that makes Harvey Lyons simply, by coincidence, a person with the same surname and same occupation - but living in a completely different area.

Yes - that's my view as well

 

[Gibbsy]

So the address you've posted from the census in 1905, shows Reginald Horace at the same address (Wright Street) as the one mentioned in 1904 match report posted by Grey Crow https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165403204
That's pretty compelling that those two are the same person - which would mean Horrie is 'Reginald Horace'.
And than that makes Harvey Lyons simply, by coincidence, a person with the same surname and same occupation - but living in a completely different area.

And as you mentioned, Horace more likely to be abbreviated to "Horry" than Harvey

 

[35Daicos]

...changed my mind....
looking on Ancestry I'm now thinking the player is likely to be Reginald Horace Lyons

Harvey Lyons was a grain merchant in all census records I can find and always lived in Port Melbourne

Reginald Horace Lyons was a dairyman living in Prahran in 1905 - see below
View attachment 558238

So while I think there was only one player (SM -> St K -> Prahran -> Richmond -> Prahran) I suspect he has been mis-identified and that it is actually Reginald Horace Lyons
born 1876 in Kyneton
died May 1921 in Brighton North see http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article1761258

Here's the death notice for this chap. It's very hard to read but it looks like he died 28th May: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203974393

It says "late South Yarra Brick Works".

 

[rbartlett]

I might send this Lyons development off to Rodgers at the AFL... unless anyone objects/or thinks we may not have enough info to suggest a change to the player's name and dob dod

 

[the croucher]

The early VFL years are very tricky - often there are sources with conflicting information - but there are absolutely errors. About 12 months ago I looked at all matches in 1898 for as many sources as I could at the time - see attached file.

My list of "errors/discrepancies" for 1898 was:
Round 4 - Geelong: Barling played rather than Sandford
Round 5 - Carlton: Kinman played rather than Moore
Round 5 - Collingwood: Williams rather than McCubbin
Round 6 - Collingwood: Tulloch rather than McCubbin
Round 8 - St Kilda: Beggs named as playing (rather than Brooks?)
Round 13 - Collingwood: Calleson did not play
Round 14 - Melbourne: Coghlan rather than Johnstone?
Round 15 - Collingwood: Is there any evidence Bird played? (I think I did find something here)
Round 16 - St Kilda: Hall named in match reports

...plus there are many discrepancies in goal scoring records - see first tab of spreadsheet

Greetings all.
I wonder colleagues if anyone can recall whether this list of 1898 changes has been forwarded to AFL House ?
Original post on page 43 of this thread has link to a spreadsheet detailing research match by match.

Have checked australianfootball.com and the changes don't appear to have been made on that site.

I'd be happy to contact the AFL staff and "share the load" a bit !!

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Greetings all.
I wonder colleagues if anyone can recall whether this list of 1898 changes has been forwarded to AFL House ?
Original post on page 43 of this thread has link to a spreadsheet detailing research match by match.

Have checked australianfootball.com and the changes don't appear to have been made on that site.

I'd be happy to contact the AFL staff and "share the load" a bit !!

No - I never forwarded this on and happy for you to onforward.
Recommend you make sure you are happy with the proposed changes & evidence - will DM you

 

[rbartlett]

Bit of an update - Stephen Rodgers has contacted me, he is looking into the most recent things we've emailed him.
But he has said in part that he needs to focus just on scores and stats (as that's his work at the AFL), and any of those 'outstanding cases' he has raised (like the DOB/DOD lists, the missing names for the Richardsons). I think the historical backlog we are uncovering is becoming a bit of a weight.

At some point down the track he's going to chat with me about devising a smoother way to receive all this info (like the Lyons name change, etc), rather than just in random emails now and then.

So I've been thinking perhaps in the meantime, we just create an excel spreadsheet, which document what our change recommendation is, who raised it, when it was raise, - and perhaps one of the column, like 'evidence', simply links out to the relevant BigFooty post number.
And then when Rodgers is back on track we can send that to him as one file.

Thoughts

 

[rbartlett]

Query- in the 1910s,20s,and 30s newspaper reports, particularly Richmond Annual Reports, it often referred to the League season as 'end of First Round', end of 'Second Round'.
Like the season was divided up into segments.
Does anyone know how that came to be / and its definitions

EDIT: Oh wait, I think FIRST ROUND meant the first time the teams played each other
and then, say after Rd 11, when team met each other again in the same order it was called SECOND ROUND.
And then the finals were FINAL ROUND.

 

[ThePope]

Query- in the 1910s,20s,and 30s newspaper reports, particularly Richmond Annual Reports, it often referred to the League season as 'end of First Round', end of 'Second Round'.
Like the season was divided up into segments.
Does anyone know how that came to be / and its definitions

EDIT: Oh wait, I think FIRST ROUND meant the first time the teams played each other
and then, say after Rd 11, when team met each other again in the same order it was called SECOND ROUND.
And then the finals were FINAL ROUND.

That was definitely the way the WAFL worked in the 70s-80s. 8 teams, so 3 rounds of 7 games = 21 game seasons. In some years, I think there were even cash payouts to the best team in each round.

 

[Obi fella]

Bit of an update - Stephen Rodgers has contacted me, he is looking into the most recent things we've emailed him.
But he has said in part that he needs to focus just on scores and stats (as that's his work at the AFL), and any of those 'outstanding cases' he has raised (like the DOB/DOD lists, the missing names for the Richardsons). I think the historical backlog we are uncovering is becoming a bit of a weight.

At some point down the track he's going to chat with me about devising a smoother way to receive all this info (like the Lyons name change, etc), rather than just in random emails now and then.

So I've been thinking perhaps in the meantime, we just create an excel spreadsheet, which document what our change recommendation is, who raised it, when it was raise, - and perhaps one of the column, like 'evidence', simply links out to the relevant BigFooty post number.
And then when Rodgers is back on track we can send that to him as one file.

Thoughts

Totally understand why your focus is Richmond biased Rhett. Just wanna put put it out here that you would be the ideal candidate to be Australian Rules biased ...the game in general.

There is a future position awaiting you.

Dedicated, won't put up with inaccuracies. I know I won't be alone on this one!

 

[rbartlett]

Okay fellow researchers, I want to try something out here.
We have so many incredible posts/emails/etc going out that its easy to lose track of which issues we have outstanding.

So I've created an excel spreadsheet that is housed on a dropbox which can only been viewed (not edited) by clicking this link.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f9uskpqcjckgn2m/Inaccuracies in Australian Football League data.xlsx?dl=0

[Tip: to open the links in the Evidence Provided column, right click and select 'Open in New Tab']


So, I'm thinking the plan of attack is, we keep discussing changes in this forum (and the DOB DOD forum), when its decided that there is a potential change required to a piece of data, tell me in here, and I'll summarise it as simple as possible on the spreadsheet.

Any of our history members here can view the excel spreadsheet at anytime to see what the status is. AFL Col/SR will be given the spreadsheet as well.
Thoughts, suggestions, feedback welcomed.


Rhett

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Okay fellow researchers, I want to try something out here.
We have so many incredible posts/emails/etc going out that its easy to lose track of which issues we have outstanding.

So I've created an excel spreadsheet that is housed on a dropbox which can only been viewed (not edited) by clicking this link.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f9uskpqcjckgn2m/Inaccuracies in Australian Football League data.xlsx?dl=0

[Tip: to open the links in the Evidence Provided column, right click and select 'Open in New Tab']


So, I'm thinking the plan of attack is, we keep discussing changes in this forum (and the DOB DOD forum), when its decided that there is a potential change required to a piece of data, tell me in here, and I'll summarise it as simple as possible on the spreadsheet.

Any of our history members here can view the excel spreadsheet at anytime to see what the status is. AFL Col/SR will be given the spreadsheet as well.
Thoughts, suggestions, feedback welcomed.


Rhett

A spreadsheet to house such queries is a ripper of an idea.

Instead of scrambling through the pages, I can see them then and there.


A suggestion.

What about a solved doco?

 

[rbartlett]

A spreadsheet to house such queries is a ripper of an idea.

Instead of scrambling through the pages, I can see them then and there.

A suggestion.

What about a solved doco?

Thanks Redman.
Well I've got a column for that on the spreadsheet. So I'll keep it there in the meantime I think on the one document


For all other BF researchers- please advise if I need to add any outstanding queries onto the spreadsheet.
You can just tell me the post number if you like and I'll take it from there.

 

[the croucher]

Just a note for this thread - a while ago I prepared for posting (but for some reason didn't get to click the post button !), a response I received from Col Hutchinson about records used at AFL House to compile player records.

Have now loaded the info onto the history resource thread:
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...-resource-thread.1049143/page-5#post-57978786

 

[rbartlett]

Can I ask, is one of the BigFooty researchers able to designate themselves as the Wikipedia updater ?
Its going to work better if we have just one person who is the one who updates the changes when the AFL etc agree to our changes.
For instance, AFL confirms Archie Richardson no longer played for StKilda, but was Richond VFA player 1902-1904, yet Richardson's wiki still covers his StKilda years. So that needs to be update with obviously a paragraph about the change and research.
And plus one needs to be created for William Kendall Richardson.

I've put them on the spreadsheet as their changes now caused the creation of further entries regarding who the missing Richardsons are
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f9uskpqcjckgn2m/Inaccuracies in Australian Football League data.xlsx?dl=0