Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 2 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[Bont2Bruce]

You're 100% correct, we only picked up 2 future 3rds. I double counted the North trade.

It seems that the pick North gave us was originally from the Saints though, they got it from St Kilda for pick 51 and turned it into 46 off us. Clever move by them if I'm not mistaken, cost nothing.

I would expect the Saints to finish a fair bit lower than North in 2019, so that is better for us that it came from the Saints!

 

[fronkalicious]

Regardless, you misrepresented the outcome. Poor form.

Cool. Let’s do it properly then. We lost a premiership player in Biggs and redpath as well. But added Hayes and khamis.

Happy?

 

[LittleG]

I can’t comment at all on the quality of the kids we picked in the draft Norm. They might be awesome. I’m rooting for them. I like the sound of them to be honest.

But the basic asset transaction ledger is really really poor.

We missed on Wingard.

We couldn’t find a way to trade down and take smith.

We couldn’t find a way to trade up and take a second high end pick before west.

We couldn’t trade down enough to get west for a song.

We couldn’t find a way to convert mountains of cap space into quality talent.

I really like powers direction with the list. A lot. To sign Bont is awesome. To move Dahl was gutsy and the right call. Same with Roughead.

But he’s either too inexperienced, not creative enough or not ballsy enough to get the job done in key areas yet in my opinion (again, clearly most disagree).

The club put him in that position. So I blame Gordon and co. To quote Sean Connery, its like we brought a knife to a gun fight.

Cest la vie. That’s the last I’ll say on it.

We balanced the list much much better, got quicker and better ball users. That’s all good stuff. But it feels very very much like a 4/10 effort from a transactional standpoint.

Go dogs.

The cost of the GWS pick 22 was Pick 30, a future second & a future third OR a future first (with second round back the other way).

Clubs really wanted to keep picks prior to 22 & I really didn't like the options left after that.

Would I have traded the future assets for Xavier O'Halloran? No.
Would you have done the trade?

 

[Virgin Dog]

heck me, some of you lot are precious. You're acting like not a single good player is drafted outside of the top 20. Remind me again where we picked up Matthew Boyd, Chris Grant, Dale Morris, Jason Johannisen, Caleb Daniel, Tory Dickson, Bailey Williams, Billy Gowers, etc? They're just a few off the top of my head..

You lot need to acknowledge that guys like Hayes earned their drafting this year, just like Gowers did last year. To sit here and call the draft things like 'disgusting' and 'pathetic' is just laughable, you're just melting down like children whose parents didn't let them have the toy they wanted. End of the day, we picked up Smith and West (both look like 200+ gamers), Vandermeer (probably one of the quickest players we've drafted since JJ), Cavarra (again incredibly fast, ready to play round 1 and should instantly improve our forward line) and Hayes (our best VFL player by far who more than earned his spot)

How about having some faith in the people who delivered us a premiership using a bunch of rookies and discards from other sides? This is far from the draft I imagined we'd have, but I am still excited to see how these guys go next year

 

[cecil]

I can’t comment at all on the quality of the kids we picked in the draft Norm. They might be awesome. I’m rooting for them. I like the sound of them to be honest.

But the basic asset transaction ledger is really really poor.

We missed on Wingard.

We couldn’t find a way to trade down and take smith.

We couldn’t find a way to trade up and take a second high end pick before west.

We couldn’t trade down enough to get west for a song.

We couldn’t find a way to convert mountains of cap space into quality talent.

I really like powers direction with the list. A lot. To sign Bont is awesome. To move Dahl was gutsy and the right call. Same with Roughead.

But he’s either too inexperienced, not creative enough or not ballsy enough to get the job done in key areas yet in my opinion (again, clearly most disagree).

The club put him in that position. So I blame Gordon and co. To quote Sean Connery, its like we brought a knife to a gun fight.

Cest la vie. That’s the last I’ll say on it.

We balanced the list much much better, got quicker and better ball users. That’s all good stuff. But it feels very very much like a 4/10 effort from a transactional standpoint.

Go dogs.

I agreed if we moved on Dahl we needed to bring in a decent player to not have the pick eaten up, but trade period really changed that for me.

Looks at the trades that got done, and how much overpaying happened.

Ryan Burton, Pick 15 and Pick 35 for Wingard was basically the deal.

For us it would needed to have been something like Pick 6 (Bailey Smith) and Bailey Williams/Caleb Daniel/Lewis Young. Would you have done that?

It's the same deal with getting a late teens pick. Our two second rounders wouldn't have been enough, and we would have needed to include our 2019 second too. Screw that!

I'm probably not the biggest fan on bringing in 4 fringe mature age players who may not be best 22. But at least Power cut a whole lot of deadwood in Honeychurch, Campbell, Biggs etc.

 

[Bont2Bruce]

You've probably read the glass half empty version, for what it's worth, here's the glass half full version of our off-season. I'm really happy with Sam Power, he is a massive upgrade on Jason McCartney already in terms of dealing with other clubs. Time will tell if he is as astute as Simon Dalrymple, too early to tell just yet.

We dodged a bullet by missing on Wingard.

We avoided paying overs to double down in an attempt to take Smith with a lower first round selection. Even better we also avoided looking very foolish by Richmond stealing from under our noses had we tried to take him later than Pick 7 (the had the other pick swaps sorted to take him at 8 or 10).

We avoided selling our future drafts just to get a second round pick prior to the West bid.

The trend was to throw away future second round picks to move up a few spots and for the first time in ages we didn't gift some of our picks to another club in a pick swap.

We got West for Pick 36, which is equivalent to our past F/S steals in Liberatore and Hunter for a similar pick.

We didn't take the Kangaroos/Saints option of making a ridiculous cash offer to a current player only for them to reject us.

Our best player signed up for 2 more years 12 months before his contract was up for renewal.

We added ready-to-go forwards (Lloyd, Cavarra, Hayes) which bolsters our depth in what was clearly our biggest area of need.

We no longer have such an abundance of injury-prone players who spend more time in the medical department than on the park.

 

[bobs head soup]

Of the 5 Vic Metro kids to make the All Australian starting team, we've got 3 of them

 

[Bont2Bruce]

Of the 5 Vic Metro kids to make the All Australian starting team, we've got 3 of them

Sadly no James Blanck though

At this point, I would rather have him on the rookie list than Roarke Smith for a 5th year.

 

[100action]

where did our pick 45 come from?

wiki says:
Traded from Fremantle at the draft; received from Greater Western Sydney;
received from Carlton; received from Geelong; received from Brisbane Lions

????

 

[adsum]

Cool. Let’s do it properly then. We lost a premiership player in Biggs and redpath as well. But added Hayes and khamis.

Happy?

If you're asking me to tell you if you're acting with integrity, you've go a problem.

 

[Bont2Bruce]

where did our pick 45 come from?

wiki says:
Traded from Fremantle at the draft; received from Greater Western Sydney;
received from Carlton; received from Geelong; received from Brisbane Lions

????

It was originally Pick 41 when we got it, became 45 with a few academy/FS bids along the way.

We got it from Fremantle along with Pick 34 by trading away Pick 30 (originally Dahlhaus compensation) and Pick 57.
We used the earlier pick to match the West bid.

 

[100action]

It was originally Pick 41 when we got it, became 45 with a few academy/FS bids along the way.

We got it from Fremantle along with Pick 34 by trading away Pick 30 (originally Dahlhaus compensation) and Pick 57.
We used the earlier pick to match the West bid.

didnt we use the dahlhaus compo on West?

We traded away this years 2nd round to carlton last year for 16 and 40.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

I can’t comment at all on the quality of the kids we picked in the draft Norm. They might be awesome. I’m rooting for them. I like the sound of them to be honest..

Absolutely. We are lock step in this regard Fronk.

But the basic asset transaction ledger is really really poor.

From a purely personnel perspective, Im not so sure. We lost Dahlhaus, meh. Adams, when player wants out for the second year in a row our hands are tied. Rough was cooked. As was everybody of any consequence. We could probably quibble over the level of compensation that we recieved in return, but thats a little moot now that its all over bar the shouting.

We missed on Wingard.

Yes we did. However, we don't know what the price we were willing to pay or indeed whether he ever was truely interested in coming to us or whether we were just a stalking horse for his desired destination at the Hawks. For the record I would've loved to have landed him but in the end like Power and the club I didnt want him at any price and all indications are that it would've taken more than pick 7 to pry him away from the hawks.

We couldn’t find a way to trade down and take smith.

I know you've been very strong on this, but reports yesterday had it that should we have done this the Tigers were set to pounce and trade down and take Smith before we would've. Leaving our dicks swinging in the breeze. Now these reports my be apocryphal, but I would suggest that there was enough in it for Power to take the slightly more conservative route that ensured them of getting their man with pick 7. When many experts had him as the second best and indeed a few had him as the best pure mid in the field, Im ok with the price we payed, indeed he may well turn out to be a bargain.

We couldn’t find a way to trade up and take a second high end pick before west..

This is the nub of my previous question to you. I ask this with respect as you clearly know more about list management than I do, but how would he have achieved this outcome with all of the intangibles that I have already described?

We couldn’t trade down enough to get west for a song.

See above.

We couldn’t find a way to convert mountains of cap space into quality talent.

Good question. I would suggest that once Wingard passed on us, we decided to bank this money for future free agents. Contract and future upgrades to players already on our list and move to the draft were wages are of little consequence.

I really like powers direction with the list. A lot. To sign Bont is awesome. To move Dahl was gutsy and the right call. Same with Roughead.

We're in furious agreement on this.

But he’s either too inexperienced, not creative enough or not ballsy enough to get the job done in key areas yet in my opinion (again, clearly most disagree).

Not so much on this. There does seem more than a little baggage and bias to this one however I respect your opinion and will leave it at that.

The club put him in that position. So I blame Gordon and co. To quote Sean Connery, its like we brought a knife to a gun fight.

Great Untouchables quote the rest...not so much.

Cest la vie. That’s the last I’ll say on it.

We balanced the list much much better, got quicker and better ball users. That’s all good stuff. But it feels very very much like a 4/10 effort from a transactional standpoint.

Agreed on paper as a whole its not a draft full of recognisable names however 4/10 seems a tad harsh.

Go dogs.

And...we're back in lock step.

 

[Bont2Bruce]

didnt we use the dahlhaus compo on West?

No.

Once West was nominated, we used the live trading to trade with Fremantle, then matched the points with one of the two picks we just acquired from Fremantle.

We traded away this years 2nd round to carlton last year for 16 and 40.

Correct, but we got back into the 2nd round with the Dahlhaus compo and the Adams trade.

 

[TBOW]

You've probably read the glass half empty version, for what it's worth, here's the glass half full version of our off-season. I'm really happy with Sam Power, he is a massive upgrade on Jason McCartney already in terms of dealing with other clubs. Time will tell if he is as astute as Simon Dalrymple, too early to tell just yet.

We dodged a bullet by missing on Wingard.

We avoided paying overs to double down in an attempt to take Smith with a lower first round selection. Even better we also avoided looking very foolish by Richmond stealing from under our noses had we tried to take him later than Pick 7 (the had the other pick swaps sorted to take him at 8 or 10).

We avoided selling our future drafts just to get a second round pick prior to the West bid.

The trend was to throw away future second round picks to move up a few spots and for the first time in ages we didn't gift some of our picks to another club in a pick swap.

We got West for Pick 36, which is equivalent to our past F/S steals in Liberatore and Hunter for a similar pick.

We didn't take the Kangaroos/Saints option of making a ridiculous cash offer to a current player only for them to reject us.

Our best player signed up for 2 more years 12 months before his contract was up for renewal.

We added ready-to-go forwards (Lloyd, Cavarra, Hayes) which bolsters our depth in what was clearly our biggest area of need.

We no longer have such an abundance of injury-prone players who spend more time in the medical department than on the park.

Sorry but half of this is conjecture and the rest is sugar coating.
Fronks analysis is accurate. Today we essentially wasted pick 30 in a strong draft.

 

[Bont2Bruce]

Sorry but half of this is conjecture and the rest is sugar coating.
Fronks analysis is accurate. Today we essentially wasted pick 30 in a strong draft.

And you have the nerve to complain just earlier that it isn't possible to have a good discussion on this forum. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

0/10 for effort.

 

[TBOW]

And you have the nerve to complain just earlier that it isn't possible to have a good discussion on this forum. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

0/10 for effort.

And you have the nerve to complain just earlier that it isn't possible to have a good discussion on this forum. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

0/10 for effort.

What about my post is it that you disagree with? I am up for a discussion.
No need to throw the toys out of the cot.

 

[Bont2Bruce]

What about my post is it that you disagree with? I am up for a discussion.
No need to throw the toys out of the cot.

You dismissed every point I made with one unsupported statement and want me to discuss your post?

Yeah, nah. Take a look in the mirror before you whinge about the level of discussion on this board.

Agreed. I used to enjoy having discussions with people who had a different opinion - now it just feels like people want to shut you down and get back to the troll posts and masturbation jokes.

Sorry but half of this is conjecture and the rest is sugar coating.
Fronks analysis is accurate. Today we essentially wasted pick 30 in a strong draft.

I rest my case.

 

[Philthy1]

I can’t comment at all on the quality of the kids we picked in the draft Norm. They might be awesome. I’m rooting for them. I like the sound of them to be honest.

But the basic asset transaction ledger is really really poor.

We missed on Wingard.

We couldn’t find a way to trade down and take smith.

We couldn’t find a way to trade up and take a second high end pick before west.

We couldn’t trade down enough to get west for a song.

We couldn’t find a way to convert mountains of cap space into quality talent.

I really like powers direction with the list. A lot. To sign Bont is awesome. To move Dahl was gutsy and the right call. Same with Roughead.

But he’s either too inexperienced, not creative enough or not ballsy enough to get the job done in key areas yet in my opinion (again, clearly most disagree).

The club put him in that position. So I blame Gordon and co. To quote Sean Connery, its like we brought a knife to a gun fight.

Cest la vie. That’s the last I’ll say on it.

We balanced the list much much better, got quicker and better ball users. That’s all good stuff. But it feels very very much like a 4/10 effort from a transactional standpoint.

Go dogs.

Sorry Fronk, I have to disagree on the view you have taken. I don't agree the asset transaction is really really poor. We traded in players (Lloyd, Durea) that were more or less cover for what we lost in retirements (Smith, Biggs) not upgrades (can't expect more than that for what we gave up). We got two excellent mid-fielders (Smith, West), a replacement for Dickson (Cavarra), some speed (Vandermeer) and some project players (Sweet, Young, Khamis). Solid draft, albeit unspectacular, given the crap hand dealt to us by manchild JMac.

Listening to Sam P through the trade and draft period he is light years ahead of JMac. He has grown on me. Yes, things may have taken longer to play out than we had thought they might, but we are not in the four walls of the club. Sam P needs to be judged after he has had the reigns for a few years.

 

[Philthy1]

Sorry Fronk, I have to disagree on the view you have taken. I don't agree the asset transaction is really really poor. We traded in players (Lloyd, Durea) that were more or less cover for what we lost in retirements (Smith, Biggs) not upgrades (can't expect more than that for what we gave up). We got two excellent mid-fielders (Smith, West), a replacement for Dickson (Cavarra), some speed (Vandermeer) and some project players (Sweet, Young, Khamis). Solid draft, albeit unspectacular, given the crap hand dealt to us by manchild JMac.

Listening to Sam P through the trade and draft period he is light years ahead of JMac. He has grown on me. Yes, things may have taken longer to play out than we had thought they might, but we are not in the four walls of the club. Sam P needs to be judged after he has had the reigns for a few years.

Can't say I am sold on Hayes, tho. But pick 78 has no points, so we lost nothing to do it.

 

[TBOW]

Hope you don't mind me balancing out your table Fronk

We went into the trade and draft period armed with:

Pick 7 > Smith - Happy to get the guy we wanted - could of gambled on a bigger play but maybe the risk was too high.
Pick 42 > Vandermeer - Pick used was 35 but you would expect he would have been available here
Pick 59 > Cavarra - Pick used was 45 but you would expect he would have been available here
Dahlhaus > 30 > 2019 Round 3 pick - Surely we could have turned this into a higher pick next year
Adams > 35 (+future 3rd) > West - Where West was bid on at 26 the points required to match could have been paid with 35

The way I see it we let Dalhaus go for pick 30 and then turned that pick into a 3rd round pick next year.
However you look at it that is a bad return for Luke and we should have maneuvered that pick better.

 

[100action]

Cool. Let’s do it properly then. We lost a premiership player in Biggs and redpath as well. But added Hayes and khamis.

Happy?

your ledger is missing a lot of stuff like the St Kilda 2019 3rd rounder and Hawthorn 2019 3rd rounder we got.

 

[Bemoreboyddog]

I can’t comment at all on the quality of the kids we picked in the draft Norm. They might be awesome. I’m rooting for them. I like the sound of them to be honest.

But the basic asset transaction ledger is really really poor.

We missed on Wingard.

We couldn’t find a way to trade down and take smith.

We couldn’t find a way to trade up and take a second high end pick before west.

We couldn’t trade down enough to get west for a song.

We couldn’t find a way to convert mountains of cap space into quality talent.

I really like powers direction with the list. A lot. To sign Bont is awesome. To move Dahl was gutsy and the right call. Same with Roughead.

But he’s either too inexperienced, not creative enough or not ballsy enough to get the job done in key areas yet in my opinion (again, clearly most disagree).

The club put him in that position. So I blame Gordon and co. To quote Sean Connery, its like we brought a knife to a gun fight.

Cest la vie. That’s the last I’ll say on it.

We balanced the list much much better, got quicker and better ball users. That’s all good stuff. But it feels very very much like a 4/10 effort from a transactional standpoint.

Go dogs.

That’s pretty fair. I was reasonably happy with the draft for once, although like yourself I’m disappointed we couldn’t find our way into an extra pick between 7 and a West bid.

We did well with the Adams trade. Can’t control the Dahl compo. Glad we let Roughie go. Made some re-signings and sounds like we made a few at a cut price. Jong for 2 years is a head scratcher though.

Would have preferred to have traded 7 for Wingard and if that failed, May. We did neither. Couldn’t find a way to bring in someone for our 27/32 pick.

I sure as hell hope we go harder than we’ve ever gone at Josh Kelly next year. However, I hope even more that we have some backup plans in place.

 

[wian]

The list is in far better shape moving forward than it was before. Got rid of a lot of dead wood... Very happy with the result

 

[TiAn_]

I’m going to keep asking this of the people that keep bringing it up until someone actually answers:

Assuming the teams with picks in the mid to late 20s were willing to trade, which is a big assumption, which player from the mid 20s should the club has traded 30 & 35 for?

Would you have traded out next year’s 2nd like the Swans had to if necessary just to ladnd this player?

Who should the club have then taken with another pick at the end of the draft once West took up all our points?

What do we end up with instead of Vandermeer, Cavarra and the 2019 Saints 3rd in this alternate reality?