Preview Geelong v Melbourne Sat 30 March at GMHBA

[year of the cat]

Once, or all year, or...?
I'm sure each of Danger, Duncan, Selwood, Menegola and Kelly got some criticism last year.

Critical of his year and attitude. Became an issue when his contract was up for negotiation.

 

[Footy Smarts]

It's good to see Kolo is starting to be criticised for a 100% correct piece of play. I guess the idea that you'd keep defensive positioning rather than go to a contest you can't impact is a bit naive. It's also good to see Blicavs can make a hideous error like that and it receive almost no comment. At least it shows to Kolo and Guthrie that attitudes on this board can change even if they're similarly divorced from reality whether they're positive or negative.

For those who are so desperate to criticise Kolo take a look at 3.45 left in the first quarter so we can criticise him for a genuine error. Beware though it's also a mistake from Blicavs so maybe you don't want to watch it after all.

 

[Vdubs]

Yes, maybe a poor choice of word......

What about an 'obvious intent to improve his output'?

What about we have to understand where the MC wants him to play and what they want from him?? He's not going to dish up Danger/ Duncan numbers. Your measure of output is not the same as theirs.
CS said on Friday that Joel Selwood is the sort of player who'll play where he's most needed for the team, and if asked to play BP, he would. That is how I see what they do with Guthrie - tagging, small back, mid, some forward work, wherever needed.

 

[Vdubs]

Critical of his year and attitude. Became an issue when his contract was up for negotiation.

A distraction, yet nevertheless got a nice contract extension. Why? Sounds like that coach had no input in that decision?

 

[Cataholic]

I think it's impossible to tell about drive and complacency from the outside. It's also really scary how quickly groupthink on this forum becomes fact. If you look for moments when he's not going to the contest of course you can find them because as a defender getting sucked in to contests you can't impact is a criminal error. But that becomes "he skirts packs and is soft" when it's highly likely he's maintaining defensive structure as instructed by the coaches.

Similarly there is a gospel view around here that he had a terrible year last year. But his year was destroyed by injury after a very promising start in the first two rounds. Even then he played some good games after returning (Bulldogs, Richmond and the last couple of rounds). This sentiment peaked with the final where he was pilloried around here as being terrible. Yet he was part of a defence that stood up well against a bombardment and then moved to midfield where he ended with the second most clearances for us. He was far from perfect but he stood up better than a stack of his teammates (basically every midfielder except the skipper). Yet Guthrie copped more criticism from the final than a bunch of guys who were far worse (eg danger, Duncan, Menegola, Kelly).

So when people say he didn't chase or is soft maybe watch the game and think whether there are other reasons he might be playing like that. Because from what I've seen most of the criticisms of his attitude is actually just him doing the team thing and being accountable rather than just running to the ball every time. Criticism of his firm is fine and he was really poor for most of 2017 but the criticism of his attitude is just unfounded.

I watch the game, and try to be as observant and unbiased as I can be.

And yes, no-one but the player himself can be 100% accurate about their drive and degree of complacency, but observers can draw some insight from that player's behaviour and form on-field......

I've liked him in times by, but am troubled by my perception of more recent times that he doesn't like contact and is very prone to providing hospital passes and turning backwards too often.

His proven form over the last 2 years doesn't, imo, warrant him being given 'automatic selection' status.

I'm looking forward to him proving me wrong.

 

[year of the cat]

A distraction, yet nevertheless got a nice contract extension. Why? Sounds like that coach had no input in that decision?

No he didn’t have any input to my knowledge on the negotiation of the contract.

 

[Cataholic]

What about we have to understand where the MC wants him to play and what they want from him?? He's not going to dish up Danger/ Duncan numbers. Your measure of output is not the same as theirs.
CS said on Friday that Joel Selwood is the sort of player who'll play where he's most needed for the team, and if asked to play BP, he would. That is how I see what they do with Guthrie - tagging, small back, mid, some forward work, wherever needed.

You're right - output isn't just about numbers. It's moreso about the quality of use.

How confident have you been, over the last year or two, when Guthrie has had the ball in hand?

 

[Vdubs]

I watch the game, and try to be as observant and unbiased as I can be.

And yes, no-one but the player himself can be 100% accurate about their drive and degree of complacency, but observers can draw some insight from that player's behaviour and form on-field......

I've liked him in times by, but am troubled by my perception of more recent times that he doesn't like contact and is very prone to providing hospital passes and turning backwards too often.

His proven form over the last 2 years doesn't, imo, warrant him being given 'automatic selection' status.

I'm looking forward to him proving me wrong.

Up until this year, there have been no players at VFL level tearing it down to take his spot, hence the contract? Maybe Clark is a beauty, maybe CC also, but the others would have to prove a lot more to safely say they have Guthrie's measure. Surely that is obvious?

 

[Vdubs]

You're right - output isn't just about numbers. It's moreso about the quality of use.

How confident have you been, over the last year or two, when Guthrie has had the ball in hand?

Each situation is different. When we've had that manic pressure applied to our players, how has the delivery been to Guthrie? He is the sort of player that backs his evasive skills and is a playmaker and he's been caught out, and it looks apparent, but at least he is trying to play the game.

 

[Cataholic]

Up until this year, there have been no players at VFL level tearing it down to take his spot, hence the contract? Maybe Clark is a beauty, maybe CC also, but the others would have to prove a lot more to safely say they have Guthrie's measure. Surely that is obvious?

That is obvious..... on the condition that Guthrie improves his form.

If he were to continue as is, well, then I'd say the newbies would provide near as much output in the short term and more upside in the long term.

As I see it, Guthrie has had a little grace lately because no-one was pressuring him for his spot, whereas he now has to prove he's worthy.

 

[year of the cat]

Up until this year, there have been no players at VFL level tearing it down to take his spot, hence the contract? Maybe Clark is a beauty, maybe CC also, but the others would have to prove a lot more to safely say they have Guthrie's measure. Surely that is obvious?

I think the frustration from many of us with Guthrie is that we know that he is capable of actually playing very good footy. He does have some very good matches. But they unfortunately are far too infrequent. And then you question why are they infrequent? He has a naturally laconic nature that can possibly be misinterpreted as being lazy but it’s his actions out on the field that provoke criticism. As Cataholic has said, too often he avoids contact or lays a feeble tackle that is broken or makes a dreadful skill error or poor decision. Maybe he’s just not that good? Or maybe he could actually be better if he applied himself or concentrated better for longer periods? I don’t know the answer.

All I know is that on his form of the past couple of years he shouldn’t be an automatic selection. He doesn’t deserve that status.

 

[Cataholic]

Each situation is different. When we've had that manic pressure applied to our players, how has the delivery been to Guthrie? He is the sort of player that backs his evasive skills and is a playmaker and he's been caught out, and it looks apparent, but at least he is trying to play the game.

Yes, he's been trying, but getting caught out too often ultimately means you get nowhere.

 

[Cataholic]

I think the frustration from many of us with Guthrie is that we know that he is capable of actually playing very good footy. He does have some very good matches. But they unfortunately are far too infrequent. And then you question why are they infrequent? He has a naturally laconic nature that can possibly be misinterpreted as being lazy but it’s his actions out on the field that provoke criticism. As Cataholic has said, too often he avoids contact or lays a feeble tackle that is broken or makes a dreadful skill error or poor decision. Maybe he’s just not that good? Or maybe he could actually be better if he applied himself or concentrated better for longer periods? I don’t know the answer.

All I know is that on his form of the past couple of years he shouldn’t be an automatic selection. He doesn’t deserve that status.

Good post

 

[Vdubs]

That is obvious..... on the condition that Guthrie improves his form.

If he were to continue as is, well, then I'd say the newbies would provide near as much output in the short term and more upside in the long term.

As I see it, Guthrie has had a little grace lately because no-one was pressuring him for his spot, whereas he now has to prove he's worthy.

Time will tell, you could be spot on. Can only be a good thing for our team if there actually is true pressure on all spots.

 

[Cataholic]

Time will tell, you could be spot on. Can only be a good thing for our team if there actually is true pressure on all spots.

Absolutely. That's one of the bastions for success.

 

[Vdubs]

Yes, he's been trying, but getting caught out too often ultimately means you get nowhere.

When we've been the hunted as a team, mostly and collectively we've failed.
When we hunt, like Friday night, we seem to do better.
I'd be more confident if the Demons were favourites this week, and we had to hunt them and take them on.
We are clear favourites this week. I don't like it.

 

[Cataholic]

When we've been the hunted as a team, mostly and collectively we've failed.
When we hunt, like Friday night, we seem to do better.
I'd be more confident if the Demons were favourites this week, and we had to hunt them and take them on.
We are clear favourites this week. I don't like it.

This game will give us our first insight into the focus and cohesion of the team.

If they come out swinging then we'll have some small cause to believe in them, but if they don't........

 

[Vdubs]

This game will give us our first insight into the focus and cohesion of the team.

If they come out swinging then we'll have some small cause to believe in them, but if they don't........

Maybe second, but I know what you mean. I walked away from the G mightily proud of our team. We were possibly not the best team until late in the 4th, but the guts and determination and focus were top shelf.
It will certainly be a massive start to our season if we could knock off 2 of last year's top 4 again.

 

[Cataholic]

Maybe second, but I know what you mean. I walked away from the G mightily proud of our team. We were possibly not the best team until late in the 4th, but the guts and determination and focus were top shelf.
It will certainly be a massive start to our season if we could knock off 2 of last year's top 4 again.

I know what you mean too, but I want to see them back it up this week so I can derive some small belief that the result marked a genuine change to our gameplan and intent, rather than it being just a quirk of R1.

 

[Chinacats]

When we've been the hunted as a team, mostly and collectively we've failed.
When we hunt, like Friday night, we seem to do better.
I'd be more confident if the Demons were favourites this week, and we had to hunt them and take them on.
We are clear favourites this week. I don't like it.

absolutely spot on! The psychology changes for this week not only for us, but 3-4 other teams that had “surprise” wins. Good teams back it up. Let’s see.

 

[Chinacats]

Demons outplayed us at cattery last year and will be smarting after losing that game and last week. Cats wanting redemption after finals loss. Demons 3 poor games this season and were done for speed on the outside. Maybe Narkle to come in for Miers. Cats getting many pats on the back this week. Ohh no!

 

[Shadow89]

Operation 'beat the crap out of Gawn' to commence at 7:25PM sharp next Saturday

 

[you pick one]

I think the frustration from many of us with Guthrie is that we know that he is capable of actually playing very good footy. He does have some very good matches. But they unfortunately are far too infrequent. And then you question why are they infrequent? He has a naturally laconic nature that can possibly be misinterpreted as being lazy but it’s his actions out on the field that provoke criticism. As Cataholic has said, too often he avoids contact or lays a feeble tackle that is broken or makes a dreadful skill error or poor decision. Maybe he’s just not that good? Or maybe he could actually be better if he applied himself or concentrated better for longer periods? I don’t know the answer.

All I know is that on his form of the past couple of years he shouldn’t be an automatic selection. He doesn’t deserve that status.

Heresy! burn YOTC at the stake.

 

[year of the cat]

Heresy! burn YOTC at the stake.

Was just working on the premise that you sometimes have to give a little to get a little! Don't worry, I'm still in your camp.

 

[WillJaffa32]

I reckon that the Dees will bring Preuss in with Gawn to avoid what happened on Saturday...Rhys and Sav will have a big task ahead of them!