News & Events Vegan protests shut down Melbourne's CBD - Have protests gone too far?

[Craven Morehead]

The meat industry would use water for reasons other than simply hydrating the animals, such as irrigation of crops for feeding the animals ,cleaning of pens, animals, slaughterhouse, frozen storage, transportation, etc.

And there it is, the assumption that all cattle are in a feed-lot, and for their entire life
Here's the thing though...97% of Australian cattle are GRASS FED! They never see a feedlot!
And most cattle in a feedlot, (with the exception of Wagyu feeding), are only fed grain for 90-120 days!

There is no irrigation of crops in grass fed grazing!
But I'll play with that anyway.
If I plant a crop for hay to feed 100 head of cattle to get through a dry winter, I'll use roughly 3.8 megs of water if it doesn't rain. That's 3,800,000 litres of water.
100 head of cattle weighs 40,000 kilo.
That's 95 litres per kilo.
That's a long way short of the 6,000 litres of extra water as claimed.


There is no cleaning of pens with water, (btw feedlots are on dirt, not concrete), so unless you are talking about the once off cleaning in a saleyard where recycled water is used in the main.
But hey, let's be generous and throw another 100 litres of water per kilo at that, (which is ridiculously high).
Where is water used in frozen storage? But hey, we'll throw another 100 litres per kilo there too!
Washing down a truck once in an animals life or are you adding the water in the radiator, (that'll be coolant btw). ok ok, another 100 litres per kilo.
The abattoirs use water, yes, so let's use an absurdly high 1,000 litres per kilo for washing down carcasses, cleaning pens, giving the workers a cuppa etc.

So, being the generous guy I am we're up an extra 1,395 litres per kilo of beef on top of the 150 litres per kilo an animal consumes in its lifetime.

i ask again, where is the other 5,000 litres per kilo, as claimed, being used?
That's right, it isn't.
It's ludicrous bullshit.

But even in terms of simply drinking water, cattle drink about half the water in the world.

What?
You better back that one up.

 

[Lethality]

And there it is, the assumption that all cattle are in a feed-lot, and for their entire life
Here's the thing though...97% of Australian cattle are GRASS FED! They never see a feedlot!
.

Other way around.

According to Dr. Dale Woerner, assistant professor with the Center for Meat Safety & Quality at Colorado State University, 97% of the beef produced in the U.S. is grain-fed feedlot beef, while the other 3% is grass-fed.

As to the other water usage, you don't get to just speculate the numbers. Just know there's a lot more to it than simply drinking water.

 

[Craven Morehead]

Other way around.

According to Dr. Dale Woerner, assistant professor with the Center for Meat Safety & Quality at Colorado State University, 97% of the beef produced in the U.S. is grain-fed feedlot beef, while the other 3% is grass-fed.

As to the other water usage, you don't get to just speculate the numbers. Just know there's a lot more to it than simply drinking water.

I was unaware that we are living in the US.
We also don't import US beef at all.
So what is your point?
The protesters are arguing against AUSTRALIAN farmers, not the yanks.

Those numbers aren't speculation at all.
The 3.8 megalitres is exactly what I use to put in a crop of hay for 100 head. Exactly! Unless it rains and then it is significantly less.

The rest are wildly over the top of what is used in reality.

 

[Lethality]

I was unaware that we are living in the US.
We also don't import US beef at all.
So what is your point?
The protesters are arguing against AUSTRALIAN farmers, not the yanks.

Those numbers aren't speculation at all.
The 3.8 megalitres is exactly what I use to put in a crop of hay for 100 head. Exactly! Unless it rains and then it is significantly less.

The rest are wildly over the top of what is used in reality.

According to the Australian Lot Feeders Association approximately 40% of Australia's total beef supply and 80% of beef sold in major domestic supermarkets is sourced from the cattle feedlot sector.


I thought they were against animal cruelty and destroying the planet.

 

[Craven Morehead]

Other way around.

According to Dr. Dale Woerner, assistant professor with the Center for Meat Safety & Quality at Colorado State University, 97% of the beef produced in the U.S. is grain-fed feedlot beef, while the other 3% is grass-fed.

As to the other water usage, you don't get to just speculate the numbers. Just know there's a lot more to it than simply drinking water.

oh, btw, those grain fed animals in the US spend the vast majority of their life in a paddock, eating grass, and are finished off, (fattened), for the last 90-120 days on grain.

You have really no idea what you're talking about apart from Dr. Google.

 

[Craven Morehead]

According to the Australian Lot Feeders Association approximately 40% of Australia's total beef supply and 80% of beef sold in major domestic supermarkets is sourced from the cattle feedlot sector.


I thought they were against animal cruelty and destroying the planet.

Derp.
That is market driven.
If you want to change the world then change the consumer market.
The vast majority of Australian beef (97%) is grass fed and exported.
There's a reason why we are the second largest beef exporter in the world behind Brazil.
The domestic consumer market is small change.

Where is the animal cruelty in feedlotting and how is it destroying the planet?

Remember, Vegans want to turn all agriculture into cultivation farming where every single thing dies in order to create a mono-culture.

 

[Lethality]

oh, btw, those grain fed animals in the US spend the vast majority of their life in a paddock, eating grass, and are finished off, (fattened), for the last 90-120 days on grain.

You have really no idea what you're talking about apart from Dr. Google.

Thats not making a great case for the environment either. Part of the problem is the massive deforestation required to accommodate these animals

 

[Lethality]

Derp.
That is market driven.
If you want to change the world then change the consumer market..

That would be the point of the protests.

 

[Craven Morehead]

Thats not making a great case for the environment either. Part of the problem is the massive deforestation required to accommodate these animals

And what EXTRA deforestation would be required to feed the planet if we suddenly all went vegan?

 

[Craven Morehead]

That would be the point of the protests.

No, no it wasn't.
They want the cessation of all animal based agriculture.
Grass-fed
Feedlotting
Commercial fishing
etc. etc.
ANYTHING which involves an animal dying.

 

[Lethality]

And what EXTRA deforestation would be required to feed the planet if we suddenly all went vegan?

None, or negative deforestation, but I don't think we'd all go vegan anyway

 

[Lethality]

No, no it wasn't.
They want the cessation of all animal based agriculture.
Grass-fed
Feedlotting
Commercial fishing
etc. etc.
ANYTHING which involves an animal dying.

Yes, and they're appealing to people to know what's involved in their meat eating, to make more informed choices. That was the pitch.

 

[Craven Morehead]

None, or negative deforestation, but I don't think we'd all go vegan anyway

None, or negative?
Back that up, and not from some vegan website please.

Just try using some common sense.
The vast majority of Australian land is NOT suited to horticultural farming due to lack of water or unsuitable soil types.
The land currently used for grass fed grazing that IS suitable, and has sufficient water, would have to be clear felled, pumped full of round up and insecticide and every living being on it would be exterminated.

 

[Craven Morehead]

Yes, and they're appealing to people to know what's involved in their meat eating, to make more informed choices. That was the pitch.

I'm extremely sure that EVERY meat eater is aware that an animal dies before they cook it.
We have THE most stringent animal welfare laws in the world, which 99.9% of farmers and abattoir operators happily abide by.

 

[Craven Morehead]

 

[Sausages]

This article, published by this journal should provide some visibility. I'll grab the relevant bit though and present it here.

"Fresh water consumption ranged from 441.7 to 597.6 L/kg boneless beef depending on the production system and averaged 463.8 L/kg bone-in lamb (Fig 2). Drinking water and irrigation were the largest sources of fresh water consumption. With supply losses included, drinking water supply contributed 63 and 56% of fresh water consumption, and irrigation contributed 31 and 61% for the average of the beef and lamb supply chains respectively. Water supply losses were much higher than livestock drinking water due to the large evaporative loss from farm dams, which were the major drinking water supply."

That's from section 3.

Craven's figures of about 150L/kg aren't far off (the research has it at 168, but acknowledges it does have a variance). It's just that the evaporative losses add an additional 270L/kg.

For the record, I am not a Vegan, eat meat (probably more than I should!) and other animal products. My concerns with the meat industry worldwide relate more to questionable practice and the land use angle - neither of which are issues for Craven's farm as far as has been related in this thread so I'm not sure what value there is in bashing him about those.

The article clearly indicates that, within the scope of the report, 95% of meat producing farming occurs in non-arable land.

For the Vegans - don't attack the farmer ffs. You can have concerns about a great many range of things with meat production, but Craven isn't a target. Yes, worldwide there are many problems with meat production - but bashing a farmer here isn't addressing a single one of those issues. Sure, Craven hasn't responded well, but there's a bigger picture and having to defend yourself from ignorance constantly tends to fray the nerves a bit.

The research article clearly lists its reference sources as well, and these include (but not limited to) both Government (Dept of Agriculture, WHO) and industry (Meat and Livestock journal, National Livestock reporting service).

 

[Lethality]

None, or negative?
Back that up, and not from some vegan website please.

Just try using some common sense.
.

Twenty-six percent of the Planet's ice-free land is used for livestock grazing and 33 percent of croplands are used for livestock feed production.

I'm extremely sure that EVERY meat eater is aware that an animal dies before they cook it.
We have THE most stringent animal welfare laws in the world, which 99.9% of farmers and abattoir operators happily abide by.

Yeah I saw our animal welfare laws in action on those live export ships.

Of course people are aware where the meat comes from, but only in some vague sense. The meat industry separates the cruelty from the people who consume it. Regardless of what your thoughts are on animal consumption, it's always good to be mindful of what you are putting in your mouth.

 

[Craven Morehead]

This article, published by this journal should provide some visibility. I'll grab the relevant bit though and present it here.

"Fresh water consumption ranged from 441.7 to 597.6 L/kg boneless beef depending on the production system and averaged 463.8 L/kg bone-in lamb (Fig 2). Drinking water and irrigation were the largest sources of fresh water consumption. With supply losses included, drinking water supply contributed 63 and 56% of fresh water consumption, and irrigation contributed 31 and 61% for the average of the beef and lamb supply chains respectively. Water supply losses were much higher than livestock drinking water due to the large evaporative loss from farm dams, which were the major drinking water supply."

That's from section 3.

Craven's figures of about 150L/kg aren't far off (the research has it at 168, but acknowledges it does have a variance). It's just that the evaporative losses add an additional 270L/kg.

For the record, I am not a Vegan, eat meat (probably more than I should!) and other animal products. My concerns with the meat industry worldwide relate more to questionable practice and the land use angle - neither of which are issues for Craven's farm as far as has been related in this thread so I'm not sure what value there is in bashing him about those.

The article clearly indicates that, within the scope of the report, 95% of meat producing farming occurs in non-arable land.

For the Vegans - don't attack the farmer ffs. You can have concerns about a great many range of things with meat production, but Craven isn't a target. Yes, worldwide there are many problems with meat production - but bashing a farmer here isn't addressing a single one of those issues. Sure, Craven hasn't responded well, but there's a bigger picture and having to defend yourself from ignorance constantly tends to fray the nerves a bit.

The research article clearly lists its reference sources as well, and these include (but not limited to) both Government (Dept of Agriculture, WHO) and industry (Meat and Livestock journal, National Livestock reporting service).

Thank you for that.
And yes, at times, my nerves have been frayed and I haven't responded as well as I should, but being confronted with outright lies and also being targeted by vegan activists over the past years will do that to you.

 

[Sausages]

Thank you for that.
And yes, at times, my nerves have been frayed and I haven't responded as well as I should, but being confronted with outright lies and also being targeted by vegan activists over the past years will do that to you.

Yeah that's fair enough mate

 

[Craven Morehead]

Twenty-six percent of the Planet's ice-free land is used for livestock grazing and 33 percent of croplands are used for livestock feed production.

Yeah, and?

Yeah I saw our animal welfare laws in action on those live export ships.

That'd be the same 60 Minutes program where the Senate, ACNC and Federal Police are investigating Animals Australia for paying 10's of $1,000's to an employee to film 'cruelty' with the implication being that ventilation fans were switched off to deliberately cause distress to the sheep in order to 'further their cause'. What a great organisation!
There is whole lot more to play out on that issue.
Meanwhile the industry has voluntarily reduced penning numbers and opened up sheep ships to delegations from all corners for open inspections.
btw...have you ever been on a live export ship? I think not.

Of course people are aware where the meat comes from, but only in some vague sense. The meat industry separates the cruelty from the people who partake in it by eating the meat. Regardless of what your thoughts are on animal consumption, it's always good to be mindful of what you are putting in your mouth.

Again, you mention cruelty?
List some of it.

 

[Lethality]

Yeah, and?

You asked.

That'd be the same 60 Minutes program where the Senate, ACNC and Federal Police are investigating Animals Australia for paying 10's of $1,000's to an employee to film 'cruelty' with the implication being that ventilation fans were switched off to deliberately cause distress to the sheep in order to 'further their cause'. What a great organisation!
There is whole lot more to play out on that issue.

The problem was with overcrowding and the condition of the animals, particularly during summer months, which is why the proposed changes were made. Paying money to investigators to do their job isn't an issue, nice inference though.

Again, you mention cruelty?
List some of it.

I already mentioned the live export debacle.

 

[Craven Morehead]

You asked.

Yeah, but that didn't answer anything.

The problem was with overcrowding and the condition of the animals, particularly during summer months, which is why the proposed changes were made. Paying money to investigators to do their job isn't an issue, nice inference though.

sigh
Every single farmer to a man, woman and child was appalled at that vision.
You do realise that we sell the stock to the exporter and our obligation ends there?
However, it was also farmer outrage that led to the lessening of pen numbers.
And there is no inference. There is an allegation that this is exactly what happened, (the shutting down of fans), and it is being investigated.
The guy wasn't an investigator at all. He was a crewman being paid a pittance who saw the lure of a big pay day.
I've been a stockman on live ships in the past, only to Asia, and the ventilation systems MUST have been turned off for animals to be distressed in such a manner. There is no way in hell they can look like that if everything is functioning as it shoould.

In saying that, historically, live export numbers are 98% live on delivery, which is more than on farm mortality rates.
We also spend a hell of a lot of money from our industry fees on education and animal welfare improvement internationally.

I already mentioned the live export debacle.

You saw one video.

 

[Lethality]

Every single farmer to a man, woman and child was appalled at that vision.
You do realise that we sell the stock to the exporter and our obligation ends there?

Exporters are part of the meat industry, this isn't about taking their side over the farmers or vice versa. Yes, a lot of people are appalled at this kind of thing, some enough to become vegan.

 

[Craven Morehead]

Exporters are part of the meat industry, this isn't about taking their side over the farmers or vice versa. Yes, a lot of people are appalled at this kind of thing, some enough to become vegan.

Then why point the finger at me, a farmer, about LE?
What is the point in LE companies being deliberately cruel to an animal?
Financially it is suicide as LE operators are paid on live animals on delivery that fit the specific health and welfare requirements of the contract not free on board.
Again, LE mortality rates are less than on farm.

You're swallowing the kool aid without doing any real research.

 

[Sausages]

Lethality, I was going to respond to each of your various quotes, but felt a better way was to respond more broadly.

Dude, do us all a favour and DO SOME ****ING RESEARCH.

Here's a tip - the ONLY THING you've linked is a FOX NEWS REPORT. You've SAID something about the Australian Lot Feeders Association, but not LINKED anything.

News reports are not research. If you submit it as a reference source in ANY ACADEMIC REPORT, your university and peer reviewers would laugh long and hard.

And before you come at me, consider this:

I vote Green. Have been for 3 decades. I believe that the anthropocentric climate issue is REAL and URGENT.

But, I'm defending Craven, who you're attacking, because you are just posting rubbish. Unsubstantiated rubbish.