Analysis 2019 List Management Discussion

[HARKER]

I've not liked what I've seen from OBrien this year, needs to attack the footy. I know he's an outside player, but you gotta go in when it's your turn.


I hope he comes on and Ed Richards doesn't haunt us, as he would be perfect.

It may 'haunt' us as much as it may for Brander, Bonar, Fogarty.......anyone selected after him.
I often say that I'm not worried about getting the best player as much as getting the right player for the club, therefore brining Ed Richards up, is fair.

Right now LOB looks like someone trying so hard and worried about making mistakes, he invariably does so.
(Was pretty dirty on himself after some fumbling on a flank on Sunday.)
Not sure why but I don't have concerns for O'Brien becoming a regular starting 22. Maybe because he has too many things going for him to not come good.

We do although still have around 4 spots around the ground that require addressing at the end of this year.
Will be interesting to start to 'hear' of names we'll be chasing in a few weeks time. Story may come from there.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Coniglio would be awesome in a non-salary cap world but we dont.

Small forward splurge or stay the course!

Going off last seasons off season I think the course is to bring in a big name mid. Now not chasing one may be changing the course.

 

[HARKER]

When we think small forwards, most of us would see an Eddie Betts or Charlie Cameron type and that's fair enough.
Someone like that would be perfect, but those players that can manufacture goals seemingly out of nothing aren't easy to find.

I don't care so much for their height nor for the perfect 'type' right now, but they do have to be able to put fear into an opponent and they have to know where the goals are and be able to kick them from 50 out. * Having to tackle or apply pressure is a pre-requisite for every player.
They also have to an innate understanding of the forward craft. i.e. They have to be a forward.

Turning mids (and be that multiple mids) into small forwards is a short-term game.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Going off last seasons off season I think the course is to bring in a big name mid. Now not chasing one may be changing the course.

Let's look at this analytically.

Excluding mids and small forwards, our best 22 for 2020 is as follows:

Best 22

Backline
Williamson Jones Marchbank
Docherty Weitering Newman

Midfield
Kreuzer 1.XX 2.XX
3.XX 4.XX 5.XX

Forwardline
6.XX Charlie 7.XX
McGovern McKay 8.XX

Interchange
Plowman 9.XX 10.XX 11.XX

Needs
So that's 11 players we need to fill, made up of either midfielders or small forwards. At a minimum, we want one elite small forward (Betts type). We'd also like to have 2 midfielders in there with forward craft or with size.

So we need 8-10 mids...and 1-3 small forwards.

Depth Chart Mids (8-10), the best 8 are italicised
Cripps
SPS*
Walsh
Dow
Fisher*
Ed Curnow
Setterfield*
Murphy (good but old)

Lochie O Brien
Thomas (good but old)
Kennedy*
Stocker
Lang
Pickett*

Depth Chart Small Forwards (1-3) the best 2 are italicised
Cuningham*
Fasolo

Polson
Garlett*

Analysis
So, without any additions, our midfield rotations are already strong. That top 8 reads so well and makes me and others hard.

Cripps, SPS, Walsh, Dow, Fisher, Ed, Setterfield, Murphy. Then we have 2 more players to choose from as either surplus mids or playing in VFL. There are still good names here like LOB, Kennedy and Stocker.

If we were to bring in someone like Coniglio, someone in that top 8 drops out, probably Murphy. Now Cogs is obviously a step up on Murphy at this stage in their careers, but it is still not required given we will then have Murphy plus 3 talented kids: LOB, Kennedy and Stocker languishing for lack of opportunity.

On the other hand, for our small forward stocks, we are all crying out for Cuningham, despite him only showing small signs of being capable. Then we are scraping the bottom of the barrel for guys like Fasolo, Polson and Garlett.

(*Asterisks = Could play as a mid+forward part time) Now, we could play guys like Fisher and SPS as a part time forward (they both have craft and can apply pressure). Similarly, could also see Setterfield or Kennedy using their size to be played in the forwardline too.

But this doesn't remove the fact that we still need someone who can legitimately crumb and do pure-small forward type things to accompany Cuningham (or replace him).

Conclusion: Don't use our assets on Coniglio. Target a good-->elite small forward with the assets we have. Remember, we only have 1 first round pick! (and that pick isn't even ours!)

 

[Soapy V]

I see the following as genuine Best 30 in 2020

Cripps Jack Dow SPS Kennedy Kruezer Cripps McKay McGovern Jones Docherty Walsh Plowman Marchbank Weitering Newman Fisher Cuningham Curnow Williamson Setterfield Docherty

The older players like Simpson Murphy Thomas Ed could well be here in 2020 but we need to start looking past them

These players are talented and I am confident in them but not yet established

O'Brien Polson Stocker Kerr TDK BSOS Finbar Goddard Garlett Schumacher Macreadie Lang Gibbons

Depth/Back Up

Casboult Phillips

Question Marks

Owies Cottrell LeBois Fasolo Pickett


From a pure list point of view the way I see it at the moment we need another Ruckman and some speed and run. A mature high level mid would also really help

With this talent a few smart additions at years end will really make a difference. Important that we now get players that can step straight in, fill a role, improve our side and add to our depth

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Let's look at this analytically.

Excluding mids and small forwards, our best 22 for 2020 is as follows:

Best 22

Backline
Williamson Jones Marchbank
Docherty Weitering Newman

Midfield
Kreuzer 1.XX 2.XX
3.XX 4.XX 5.XX

Forwardline
6.XX Charlie 7.XX
McGovern McKay 8.XX

Interchange
Plowman 9.XX 10.XX 11.XX

Needs
So that's 11 players we need to fill, made up of either midfielders or small forwards. At a minimum, we want one elite small forward (Betts type). We'd also like to have 2 midfielders in there with forward craft or with size.

So we need 8-10 mids...and 1-3 small forwards.

Depth Chart Mids (8-10), the best 8 are italicised
Cripps
SPS*
Walsh
Dow
Fisher*
Ed Curnow
Setterfield*
Murphy (good but old)

Lochie O Brien
Thomas (good but old)
Kennedy*
Stocker
Lang
Pickett*

Depth Chart Small Forwards (1-3) the best 2 are italicised
Cuningham*
Fasolo

Polson
Garlett*

Analysis
So, without any additions, our midfield rotations are already strong. That top 8 reads so well and makes me and others hard.

Cripps, SPS, Walsh, Dow, Fisher, Ed, Setterfield, Murphy. Then we have 2 more players to choose from as either surplus mids or playing in VFL. There are still good names here like LOB, Kennedy and Stocker.

If we were to bring in someone like Coniglio, someone in that top 8 drops out, probably Murphy. Now Cogs is obviously a step up on Murphy at this stage in their careers, but it is still not required given we will then have Murphy plus 3 talented kids: LOB, Kennedy and Stocker languishing for lack of opportunity.

On the other hand, for our small forward stocks, we are all crying out for Cuningham, despite him only showing small signs of being capable. Then we are scraping the bottom of the barrel for guys like Fasolo, Polson and Garlett.

(*Asterisks = Could play as a mid+forward part time) Now, we could play guys like Fisher and SPS as a part time forward (they both have craft and can apply pressure). Similarly, could also see Setterfield or Kennedy using their size to be played in the forwardline too.

But this doesn't remove the fact that we still need someone who can legitimately crumb and do pure-small forward type things to accompany Cuningham (or replace him).

Conclusion: Don't use our assets on Coniglio. Target a good-->elite small forward with the assets we have. Remember, we only have 1 first round pick! (and that pick isn't even ours!)

I 100% want our number 1 priority to be a crumbling forward but I’m just not sure who that is. Martin is my favourite forward but he plays high and not so much as a crumber. He has also never kicked big amounts of goals. 100% should chase but we also need a true pocket even with him. Billings is playing great, but as mid and as a forward his best football is again much higher up the ground.
I’m not sure who else there is out their who are worth spending up for. Players like Castagna and Butler could be very cheap if they are out of the side come the end of the season.

I don’t think we are a chance but if we could get Coniglio than we should chase someone like Castagna and than use our pick ~8 in the draft and hope there’s a small forward worth taking. (Some great options this season)

A possible forward line of

Cuningham Curnow Fisher
McGovern McKay Castagna

Would be mighty competitive next season when it’s lead by arguably the best midfield in the league and we would have an extremely highly rated small forward that we have taken in the draft pushing for selection.

If we are picking three mids on the bench than our midfield group could be

Cripps
Coniglio
SPS
Setterfield
Walsh
Murphy
Curnow
Dow

With LOB, Kennedy, Stoker, Thomas as true depth and considering injuries a couple will probably play most weeks.

 

[Juddernaut08]

I 100% want our number 1 priority to be a crumbling forward but I’m just not sure who that is. Martin is my favourite forward but he plays high and not so much as a crumber. He has also never kicked big amounts of goals. 100% should chase but we also need a true pocket even with him. Billings is playing great, but as mid and as a forward his best football is again much higher up the ground.
I’m not sure who else there is out their who are worth spending up for. Players like Castagna and Butler could be very cheap if they are out of the side come the end of the season.

I don’t think we are a chance but if we could get Coniglio than we should chase someone like Castagna and than use our pick ~8 in the draft and hope there’s a small forward worth taking. (Some great options this season)

A possible forward line of

Cuningham Curnow Fisher
McGovern McKay Castagna

Would be mighty competitive next season when it’s lead by arguably the best midfield in the league and we would have an extremely highly rated small forward that we have taken in the draft pushing for selection.

If we are picking three mids on the bench than our midfield group could be

Cripps
Coniglio
SPS
Setterfield
Walsh
Murphy
Curnow
Dow

With LOB, Kennedy, Stoker, Thomas as true depth and considering injuries a couple will probably play most weeks.

I'd trade our first for Martin in a heartbeat!

Castagna makes that forwardline look OK, but I don't rate him that high. Would rather a true A-grader in that spot, though I know that's easier said than done.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

I'd trade our first for Martin in a heartbeat!

Castagna makes that forwardline look OK, but I don't rate him that high. Would rather a true A-grader in that spot, though I know that's easier said than done.

I’d do the same for Martin without a doubt. My worry is it still doesn’t fix our biggest problem and that’s having a crumber at McKay/Curnow’s feet deep because that’s not where he plays his best footy. We would be playing him much higher imo

 

[Mr_Plow]

We don't want Castagna, trust me. He is awful. Absolutely no spatial/situational awareness, poor skills. Is quick, that's about it.

 

[LegendaryBlues]

We don't want Castagna, trust me. He is awful. Absolutely no spatial/situational awareness, poor skills. Is quick, that's about it.

Bolton is the one we should be looking at. Kid has talent to burn

 

[Mr_Plow]

Bolton is the one we should be looking at. Kid has talent to burn

This I can get around. Bolton would be nice.

If we're targeting Richmond, Butler and Bolton should be the ones.

 

[Juddernaut08]

This I can get around. Bolton would be nice.

If we're targeting Richmond, Butler and Bolton should be the ones.

Look I know he's small, but he can't coach and play small forward!



Oh, you meant Shai. Carry on.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

This I can get around. Bolton would be nice.

If we're targeting Richmond, Butler and Bolton should be the ones.

I really like Bolon and followed him closely because I wanted him at the Fisher pick but he is another one who plays a lot higher. As most Richmond supporters would probably say, he’s a high HF or mid. I would still be happy with him but I don’t know if he is the crumbing/pressure FP we need.
I don’t really rate Castagna or Butler that highly but they are huge improvements on Polson, could come cheap $ wise and only cost our second pick which would be about 40.

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

When we think small forwards, most of us would see an Eddie Betts or Charlie Cameron type and that's fair enough.
Someone like that would be perfect, but those players that can manufacture goals seemingly out of nothing aren't easy to find.

I don't care so much for their height nor for the perfect 'type' right now, but they do have to be able to put fear into an opponent and they have to know where the goals are and be able to kick them from 50 out. * Having to tackle or apply pressure is a pre-requisite for every player.
They also have to an innate understanding of the forward craft. i.e. They have to be a forward.

Turning mids (and be that multiple mids) into small forwards is a short-term game.

BANG ON Not only do we not have any in the seniors side but none plying their craft in the VFL in case of an injury
IMO Number one address of list management...

 

[Soapy V]

I don’t really rate Castagna or Butler that highly but they are huge improvements on Polson, could come cheap $ wise and only cost our second pick which would be about 40.

Polson's played 16 games and I don't like the idea of bringing in players because they are cheap or may be an improvement. We need to go for real quality now.

We also have Fasolo LeBois Polson Cuningham Murphy Gibbons Garlett Thomas Pickett Lang on our list who can all play that role. Going to be some interesting decisions at years end

If Cuningham Fasolo & Pickett were up and running, Polson had 50 games, Kennedy Stocker & Setterfield pushed Murphy forward, Williamson & Docherty fit forced Thomas forward etc we may not be having this discussion?

If we recruited a Coniglio does that push Fisher forward more?

IMO I don't think it's as bad as most make out. Get the midfield working better and connecting with the forward line and get some of these players fit and playing well and it may well not be an issue at all.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Polson's played 16 games and I don't like the idea of bringing in players because they are cheap or may be an improvement. We need to go for real quality now.

We also have Fasolo LeBois Polson Cuningham Murphy Gibbons Garlett Thomas Pickett Lang on our list who can all play that role. Going to be some interesting decisions at years end

If Cuningham Fasolo & Pickett were up and running, Polson had 50 games, Kennedy Stocker & Setterfield pushed Murphy forward, Williamson & Docherty fit forced Thomas forward etc we may not be having this discussion?

If we recruited a Coniglio does that push Fisher forward more?

IMO I don't think it's as bad as most make out. Get the midfield working better and connecting with the forward line and get some of these players fit and playing well and it may well not be an issue at all.

I think we would because the only one of those names who is any good as a pressure player is Polson (Cuningham hopeful) and we shouldn’t be relying on him to “make it”.
Also the vast majority of them are much more likely to be off our list in two years than they are to be on it.
If there is a quality small forward who crumbs and puts on good pressure available go all out and get them but nearly every type I’ve seen mentioned are HF who play their best up the ground. (Papley I think is OOC would be a great get)
But if we can’t and their is a premiership small forward who is along way ahead of any one we have who will cost next to nothing than I really can’t see why you wouldn’t.

 

[Bamboo Harvester]

I see the following as genuine Best 30 in 2020

Cripps Jack Dow SPS Kennedy Kruezer Cripps McKay McGovern Jones Docherty Walsh Plowman Marchbank Weitering Newman Fisher Cuningham Curnow Williamson Setterfield Docherty

The older players like Simpson Murphy Thomas Ed could well be here in 2020 but we need to start looking past them

These players are talented and I am confident in them but not yet established

O'Brien Polson Stocker Kerr TDK BSOS Finbar Goddard Garlett Schumacher Macreadie Lang Gibbons

Depth/Back Up

Casboult Phillips

Question Marks

Owies Cottrell LeBois Fasolo Pickett


From a pure list point of view the way I see it at the moment we need another Ruckman, Small Forward, and some speed and run. A mature high level mid would also really help

With this talent a few smart additions at years end will really make a difference. Important that we now get players that can step straight in, fill a role, improve our side and add to our depth

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Matt Lobbe retired at the end of the season....hopefully SOS and co are on the lookout for another young ruck to develop while we still have Krooz and AP.
There was actually one playing in the Woods' VFL side on the weekend named Max Lynch....20yo rookie listed and out of contract end of 2019. He dominated both Lobbe and AP. SOS and Brodie at the game, so hopefully they saw what we all saw.

 

[ferrisb]

Imagine Dow Setterfield Walsh Kennedy O'Brien Williamson Cuningham Stocker getting to SPS's level (or close) from the weekend? Maybe not finals but close

PS Fingers crossed for a fit Docherty!

(to the tune of Jessie)

Soapy, paint your pictures 'bout how it's gonna be,
By now I should know better, you dream optimistically.
But tell me all about #17 for CFC.
Soapy, you can always sell any dream to me.
Oh, Soapy, you can always sell any dream to me.

 

[HARKER]

BANG ON Not only do we not have any in the seniors side but none plying their craft in the VFL in case of an injury
IMO Number one address of list management...

At this stage I'm still coming back to the same conclusions, if we were to keep everyone with contacts on our list.
if for instance Fisher, SPS or whichever other first 22 player is looking for a way out, then we may have to change tack.

DEFENCE:
Key position backs: Jones, Weitering & Macreadie. Back-up Goddard..............................We seem to be OK here.
Small/Medium defenders: Marchbank, Plowman, Docherty, Williamson & Newman...........Again we seem to be OK here.
Speedy defender: ...................................................................................................Seems we have to address this.

MIDS:
Inside (Predominantly): Cripps, Kennedy, Setterfield & Stocker.....................................Good spread and cover.
Inside/Outside: Petrevski-Seton, Walsh, Fisher............................................................A senior player ala Coniglio, wouldn't go astray
Wingers: Cuningham, O'Brien & mix of inside/outside mids...........................................I think we're covered for the wing position.

RUCKS:
Kreuzer, Lobbe, Phillips & TDK......................Was against a young ruckman, but revising that view after watching Max Lynch last week.
Not suggesting that Lynch is a world beater, but it showed me something I didn't expect to see from a young ruckman.....timing, presence, marking ability, mobility....etc. If there is another one of these around and even if we do court Lynch himself. Let's just do it and move on one of Lobbe & Phillips.

ATTACK:
Key Position: McKay, McGovern, CCurnow, Kerr and possibly and maybe even likely, TDK: Don't see a KPF on the agenda.
Small/Medium forwards: ??? ??? ??? ??? ............... Huge gap and of course mids will drop in as required, but we still have to find long-term players we can mix with the talls and Fasolo, Polson, Gibbons and an ageing ECurnow aren't the answer.

Haven't included Simpson, Murphy, ECurnow, Casboult nor Thomas here as they're not medium to long term answers, although even if they do all play on next year, we'd still need to address the needs now and not when they're 33 years of age, although Simpson is already older.

The base is there and that base has to learn to play together along with the addition of a few more hand-selected mature aged players to drop into holes.

 

[PrinceCharles]

Lol Castagna is terrible.

 

[ferrisb]

When we think small forwards, most of us would see an Eddie Betts or Charlie Cameron type and that's fair enough.
Someone like that would be perfect, but those players that can manufacture goals seemingly out of nothing aren't easy to find.

I don't care so much for their height nor for the perfect 'type' right now, but they do have to be able to put fear into an opponent and they have to know where the goals are and be able to kick them from 50 out. * Having to tackle or apply pressure is a pre-requisite for every player.
They also have to an innate understanding of the forward craft. i.e. They have to be a forward.

Turning mids (and be that multiple mids) into small forwards is a short-term game.

I want one of those guys that is 'dangerous'.

The ball spills free and you know 1) said player is going to pick up the crumb 2) you just know he's going to kick the goal.

The ball lands anywhere within 5 metres of Betts and I think 'watch out, this will be a goal'. Same for Wingard. And some others.

Maybe Fish is the closest we have? Not sure he has the full range of goal-kicking tricks (snaps, bends, bananas etc), but he's one-touch off the ground and is good in tight traffic.

 

[BlueTang]

I hope the club invests a lot of effort into getting Pickett right, imo, in 12 months time he could have a game just like what Harry had, and have all the media talking about him breaking a game open. And the best part, it won’t cost us anything!

 

[Soapy V]

(to the tune of Jessie)

Soapy, paint your pictures 'bout how it's gonna be,
By now I should know better, your dreams are optimistically.
But tell me all about #17 for CFC.
Soapy, you can always sell any dream to me.
Oh, Soapy, you can always sell any dream to me.

You idiot! .........................

 

[HARKER]

I want one of those guys that is 'dangerous'.
The ball spills free and you know 1) said player is going to pick up the crumb 2) you just know he's going to kick the goal.
The ball lands anywhere within 5 metres of Betts and I think 'watch out, this will be a goal'. Same for Wingard. And some others.
Maybe Fish is the closest we have? Not sure he has the full range of goal-kicking tricks (snaps, bends, bananas etc), but he's one-touch off the ground and is good in tight traffic.

Same....except I want 2

I don't think there's another way to go about it, but the season hasn't played out just yet either.
Things can change, but given what we know, given what we've seen and given what looks to a a clear need, how can we ignore it?

Gibbons: Think we now know where he plays his best football now.
Polson: Harsh on him being asked to do what he doing right now and the coach can be nice to all players after a win, but if Polson somehow manages to become a manic goal-kicker, I'll be more than just a little surprised.
ECurnow: He's not the answer either. We all know that and even if he makes good this year that's great. What about the future though?
And then what Murphy? Thomas? JSilvagni? I think they're either plug-ups and/or not the answer.

Cuningham had been faring well in the forward line before injury and looked dangerous around goals also, but even here we can't be sure of what we have going forward. I still see him playing wing eventually.

Anyway we have gaps. How will we fill them and with who?

 

[Juddernaut08]

I hope the club invests a lot of effort into getting Pickett right, imo, in 12 months time he could have a game just like what Harry had, and have all the media talking about him breaking a game open. And the best part, it won’t cost us anything!

Don't think he has small forward chops though. Could be a good winger.