Bluemour Melting Pot XXI - Like seriously, the polar ice caps have got nothing on us

[Stamos]

SOS has a great way of looking unlucky when we miss out

Shiel - play finals
Coniglio - happy at his club
Papley - 3 year trigger clause
Martin - goal posts moved on the final day

This doesn't seem to happen to sides like Geelong or Hawthorn

Are you talking about the same Hawthorn that went hard at both Shiel and Coniglio, but were behind us both times?

And the same Geelong whose 2nd best (or maybe even best?) player walked out after 2 years?

Lol

 

[jd2010]

Are you talking about the same Hawthorn that went hard at both Shiel and Coniglio, but were behind us both times?

Yet they don't get caught up in the oh so unlucky why always us crap and move onto their next targets

 

[Tony Lynn 15]

Man it’s shitting me the amount of people potting SOS for not getting Papley. Swans tried to get the deal done but Dickhead DODO would rather keep a guy desperate to get out of Melbourne. It’s been clearly stated over and over that Swans weren’t losing Papley without gaining Daniher.
I’ve had a big rant to my Essendon supporting co-worker and he’s pi**ed off that Daniher didn’t get traded.

I’m 50 pages behind so this may have been covered but once the Daniher deal was off did we approach Port? Or were we really not that interested in Wines? Or perhaps by 7pm it was too late?

I appreciate all the ITKs that have posted over the last few months and longer. As they have said the whole time, things change. I’d personally rather get bit of info and for it not to pan out than nothing at all.

Bring on the PSD!!

Wines you say? This whole thread has been about whines man!

 

[Sharks On A Plane]

Found last night seriously tough. I know it’s just a game (and a small component thereof) but I had pretty much pencilled in Papley for that half-forward role going forward, and was shocked when it didn’t eventuate.

Papley was the perfect player for us, ticked every box including right age profile. Next year is going to be harder without him, but hopefully Cuningham (who has similar qualities as a player) can stay injury free and really make an impact.

Getting Martin for free in the PSD will certainly help cushion the blow of missing on Papley, especially if we manage to unearth an “instant impact” small forward with 9 (or with two early picks should we split).

I’m not against giving Harley Bennell a chance either. My “vibe” is that he’s settled down a lot and is actually of pretty decent character these days.

 

[Funk]

People saying Craig Cameron's final offer for Martin was terrible for us... I am not so sure. I think it was clever.

The final offer (remembering that the Papley deal was already dead) was 15 and Martin, for 9 and our future second. We have been saying all along that Martin was only worth a future second, and that was what we were offered... if we were prepared to downgrade 9 to 15 this year.

Courage takes many forms, and in this case, I think the "brave" thing to do was take that deal. Yes, the downgrade of our 2019 first would have been a hit, but not a big one, in a draft people seem to rate as weak. What we would have gained is the knowledge, across the industry, that if you are UNcontracted and you nominate Carlton, we'll get you over the line. Instead, we chose to sustain reputational damage in favour of getting Martin for "free"... but there is always a cost, even if our PSD ploy is successful.

Silvagni chose to "stand firm", but in this instance, I think that was the soft option. Sometimes you need to give ground to get what you want, and retain the faith of those (like Martin) who trusted you, rather than trying to be the "hard man" 100% of the time.

And if SOS gets Martin for free in PSD?

Sends a message to other clubs to be reasonable.

 

[myblueroan]

Heard SOS on SEN this morning.
It was good.
Tim and Garry were very positive about us after and asked good q's.
It seems likely we will get Martin as everyone suggests.
They may sit down with Bennell although haven't as yet.
Reading between the lines, we will be getting a player that was mentioned as available for PSD.
Maybe a couple there.
SOS was selling our 9 as being someone we will all be happy with in the draft.
A lot to play out yet.

 

[I bleed Blue]

Right let's look into the crystal ball.

In 10 months Papley still wants to come home to Melbourne.

Are we still his preference or does he look elsewhere?

 

[GapInIkonPark]

GC has a really generous concession where they can pre-list Academy / Zone players for the next 3 drafts and they get Northern Territory as a Zone.

So they don’t ‘need’ a future second and future third for next year’s compromised draft for matching bids. But how valuable those picks would be to a club wanting to downgrade to match bids for that club’s academy players ...GWS, Brisbane, Sydney, etc. ?

They just lack imagination really.

GC has picks 1, 2, 15 and 20 this draft. Likely GC has another high pick and pick 11 (unless the AFL takes it away) next year.

I get it GC doesn’t want to be bent over as happened with the Weller trade in 2017. And there is the prospect of losing Lukosius, King, whoever, and so they have to show they won’t be bent over ...

But there is stupidity again when the player is OoC, has not lived up to expectations, talented yes, and then loses him for nothing. No way should AFL allow GC to draft him ‘against his will’.

 

[cfc05]

Mods can we ban people who attack the ITK. Things change and nothing is concrete. I’m not sure why people don’t understand that.

FWIW - I think Silvagni did what he could this period, can only question his decision to target Papley, not his negotiations during the past fortnight. Potentially he didn't know the length of contract, or simply thought Sydney would relent. Worth a shot!

Martin was heavily over valued by Suns, in part due to the AFL giving them picks, devaluing our currency.

However, IF list managers are to be believed, the "ITK's" just proved they either regurgitate industry rumor as a few have tried to use as a defense, lie or simply once had reliable knowledge and no longer do.

The Papley deal was never getting done without Daniher, pretty clear from Sydney and Carlton. So anyone who said it "would get done", "is close" or any words similar were 100% wrong. The knowledge they shared was 100% inaccurate - nothing changed on that one!

Martin deal never sounded close either. Suns openly said they wanted something higher than a future second second round, we never offered anything higher.
Suns openly said they needed something involving a first round pick. It doesn't sound like SOS wanted to entertain that idea either.

So to suggest that deal "will happen", "is close", etc was also false. Doesn't appear it was ever close.

Trade week is fluid, things change all the time, and clearly the club were still very hopeful of getting the Martin deal done late (and Papley if Joe left *). However confident is not the same as suggesting the deal is done, or deal will happen, or deal is close. All those statements were simply wrong.

 

[Stamos]

Yet they don't get caught up in the oh so unlucky why always us crap and move onto their next targets

Are you serious? They miss out on Cogs, not even first in line, and console themselves in a guy who’s done 3 knees?

 

[Blues_1864]

How so?
Surely players don’t expect their new club to massively overpay and weaken themselves in order to bring them in.

I’d hazard a guess that both Papley and Martin are more disappointed in their clubs than they are in Carlton

I suspect Papley and Martin will both be sharing the blame around liberally, and with justification, especially in Martin's case.

And Cameron's final offer was not massive overs... It was slight overs, like what West Coast paid for an uncontracted Kelly, because they get it.

 

[Wily trout]

If Gold Coast have any self respect, or decency, they'll just delist Martin now so he go to the club of his choosing as a DFA.

They're getting nothing now. That ship has sailed. They've made it impossible for him to leave for 2 years.

There is no chance GCS redraft him. They may give empty threats to do so, but that'll just reflect even more poorly on them and AFLPA would intervene.

Agreed, it would be an absolutely awful look, redrafting Martin against his will. Could create some disunity against the club, within their list with some of his mates.

 

[JustaBattler]

the only issue I have with your post is the use of fail as a noun- and that’s because i’m an old fart stickler.

absolutely how I read the events of the last few days.

A time limited offer to Sydney was the way to play this. As you state, we allowed Sydney to attempt to leverage our capital without any attendant risk.

yeah 'fail' was a bit on the itchy scratchy side I agree...but the optics of the wait for Daniher and wait for Sydney really grated on me - there is either a deal or there isn't, but I guess it cost Carlton nothing except a bit of dignity.

 

[AB_Blue]

ABB wakes up in morning, looks outside......
sky isn’t falling

Goes on BF:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[El Topo]

I suspect Papley and Martin will both be sharing the blame around liberally, and with justification, especially in Martin's case.

And Cameron's final offer was not massive overs... It was slight overs, like what West Coast paid for an uncontracted Kelly, because they get it.

Are you factoring in next year's second round pick? We went into this trade period with one hand tied behind our back, why would we do the same next year for an uncontested player who was dropped to the NEAFL?

 

[Blues_1864]

And if SOS gets Martin for free in PSD?

Sends a message to other clubs to be reasonable.

There's always a cost. Uncontracted players now know we'll leave them at the altar if it suits us... and we were already struggling to land the big fish anyway.

And Gold Coast won't care if Martin walks - their AFL assistance package made our pretty reasonable offer for Martin almost worthless. *That* was infuriating, because there was nothing we could do about that.

 

[Stamos]

I suspect Papley and Martin will both be sharing the blame around liberally, and with justification, especially in Martin's case.

And Cameron's final offer was not massive overs... It was slight overs, like what West Coast paid for an uncontracted Kelly, because they get it.

If Martin thinks it was our fault at all, then I guess we won’t be getting him. Our offer for him was overs. Gold Coast’s request was unreasonable, especially after they reneged on the agreed-to trade.

I really hope you’re not equating Martin to Kelly, or what they represent to each club.

 

[KohPhi]

But the general understanding is that they have inside information. so I don’t treat their posts as just rumours. No harm done apart from getting our hopes high and then having them quashed.

Whilst I'll never 'ITK bash' because;
1) it's the internet, and I never put much credence into much of what I read on the internet
2) I am genuinely entertained by their posts and the subsequent discussions it produces

I do agree with assessment that it comes across as more than just rumours by the way they are written.

There's subtle differences though. There is the genuine 'heard this from someone, make of it what you will' type like this...

Big fish in the works. May not get both paps and Martin if we land it. Elite midfielder. Don't ask who the player is.
Source: past multiple premiership player and inner sanctum member.

Nothing wrong here. Insinuates much, but really says little. No harm done.

then there's this type, a poster posting something they've heard along with their own assumption. Nothing definitive, no harm done..

There's something big brewing. I'm still confident it involves Gaff (or atleast to that caper of talent). That's what I'm hearing.

Then there are these types. Not a rumour as such, but a definitive statement. It's these ones that make it sound like gospel.

An agreement has been reached between all 3 clubs
Daniher to sydney
Papley to Carlton
2x first rounders to Ess
There will be an upgrade from a 3rd to a 2nd which we will ultimately land us Martin

Martin and Betts will be done
He will be BOUND BY BLUE .......(Papley)

It will happen. Just hang in there. (Martin)

Papley will also 100% get done.

Martin deal is done... agreed on a couple of options depending on what happens with Papley.

Unless Papley falls through, won't happen (Wines). Papley won't fall through.

Add Tom Papley and Jack Martin while your at it. Welcome to Carlton

These examples above are the types of 'rumours' that I believe, cause most of the angst amongst many here. They are written in a way that promotes them as facts, not rumours.

Now let me reiterate, I'm not having a go at any ITK posters, as they genuinely may be posting info they've heard, but maybe the lesson out of this is preface the posts with 'this is what I've heard' 'as it currently stands' etc.

Like a good joke, it's all in the delivery.

 

[Dravid's in]

The only thing dumber than the winners and losers of trade week articles are the ones done straight after the draft, but I couldn't help myself....

Not surprised to see us dead last, but Cal "Bomber" Twomey has the Dons 4th with a 7.5/10 and Robbo equal 3rd.

 

[slowhand clape]

Right let's look into the crystal ball.

In 10 months Papley still wants to come home to Melbourne.

Are we still his preference or does he look elsewhere?

I see no reason why he wouldn’t.
Gibbs, Kelly both had a second try and got there.

Amidst all the doom and gloom we should look at the long game.
All this talk of winning trade week!!!
If we get Martin in the PSD, then a player at 9 (or maybe even split the pick if the draft is so even) and then Papley next year, then we’re a lot stronger long term.
All the talk from our management has been about sustained success and this is all part of it.
Remember how broken we were on Shiel day? 12 months on we’re so much stronger. We may think the media hate us but the majority of them think Shiel made the wrong choice.

 

[GoBlues!]

How so?
Surely players don’t expect their new club to massively overpay and weaken themselves in order to bring them in.

I’d hazard a guess that both Papley and Martin are more disappointed in their clubs than they are in Carlton

Agree. Natural for supporters to feel disappointed with not getting Papley across, but spare a thought for how Martin and Papley are feeling missing out on getting to Carlton.

Especially Martin, 6 years at the suns, fulfilled his contractual obligations and the lousy bastards couldn’t organise a reasonable trade to the club of his choice and to play with Eddie. Pack of arseholes.

 

[Pixelshooter]

Sorry for my ignorance...but what makes someone an "ITK"? I know someone at Carlton in a very senior position and get the occasional snippet of info, but I don't think I would classify myself as any different to anyone else. Just curious...no potting from me

 

[Arr0w]

As someone with a soft spot for the baggers (whole fam supports Carlton), shattered for you guys. Happy to keep paps but not against his will. I think sos should've just put 9 on the table, bias aside he's worth that, and would've been worth it for you guys especially. The type of player he is would've made you an instantly better team, and has the attitude you really could've built on. Could've been an instrumental piece in the rebuild, young and proven. Can't see how a gamble on an 18 yr old at pick 9 would guarantee a similar product.

I have read a number of your posts, but I will go back to the start, with this being your first

How do you know, SOS didn't offer pick 9 outright?

 

[Robbo's my hero]

As our ITK's tell us... things change. Being the tough guy with Brandon Ellis was both easy and correct. Taking the same approach with Jack Martin was also "easy" in my view, but wrong. We might well get Martin "free", but will pay the price when trying to get our preferred uncontracted players to nominate us at the end of 2020... any player with half a brain would be gun-shy, after last night.

The only mitigation against any of this is if the Papley deal was never dead, as we have been told. But we have also been told Daniher negotiations broke down 45 minutes before deadline, and if true, I find it hard to see how the Papley deal could have survived that.

Time will tell. A player and his manager looking at the situation will say Carlton stuffed up. Not the other clubs. Interesting opinion.

 

[windows1]

And if SOS gets Martin for free in PSD?

Sends a message to other clubs to be reasonable.

Funk my view:

Both clubs included next year’s Carlton second in their trades. We included a third Vs their 6 pick downgrade. On points the difference in offers is non existent.

Therefore I don’t think any characterisation of GC offer as ‘unreasonable’ compared to ours is fair. They left us a first rounder and were giving us Martin. May not have been our preference but I think the cold light of day will show it’s ridiculous these two clubs couldn’t sort that after 2 weeks. Truly ridiculous.

How about we swapped next year’s our first with their 11 and throw in a second rounder? How about their trade and swap thirds back in our favour to sweeten? How about work with them over the two weeks to move up the 15 slightly with another club?

It’s just not good work by either club to have gotten this close and not sorted it.