Analysis 2019 List Management Discussion II

[true blue19]

I don't think that the players themselves should represent the work that Silvagni has done - It's the deal making that stood out to me

1. Effectively turned Henderson into McKay
2. Made sure we didn't miss on CCurnow, but trading higher to get him and taking McKay out of Adelaides grasp.
3. We narrowly missed on Hopper but took Kennedy thereafter.
4. Turned Tuohy into Marchbank...even though some thought this wasn't his best deal at the time.
5. Did that well-publicized trade with Adelaide last year that effectively netted us three first rounders.
6. Didn't buckle for Shiel but still almost got him for a future first rounder, whilst forcing Essendon to hand over two first rounders.
7. Usurped Hawthorn for Coniglios signature, but something weird happened...AFL
8. Got Martin for...zero trade value.
9. Turned the pick #9 into two later picks and still got the player we would have taken at #9 and got ourselves another first rounder.

Let's argue about some of them and even if we throw in the Papley miss, this is what Silvagni did best.
He made things happen and when they didn't happen it wasn't for him not being bold.

I agree with what you have said and I think SOS could not have done a better job with what he had to work with. I'm also disappointed he is gone from the club. I thought the article was interesting that 10 player will make or break SOS legacy at Carlton and wanted to discuss the players rather than SOS. What's your thoughts on the players mentioned?

 

[HARKER]

I agree with what you have said and I think SOS could not have done a better job with what he had to work with. I'm also disappointed he is gone from the club. I thought the article was interesting that 10 player will make or break SOS legacy at Carlton and wanted to discuss the players rather than SOS. What's your thoughts on the players mentioned?

If SOS had to do all the deal negotiating...and SOS had the final say on players drafted/recruited...and SOS had to do all the contract negotiations...and SOS had to massage the TPP to advantage...what exactly was Agresta brought in to do?
I've never got my head around for the need of two LM's (by title at least) Five years ago we didn't have one and now we need two? It's no wonder Agresta may have been aggrieved for what he may have been sold, to effectively being SOS's secretary.

I've been saying some time now that the way football departments are set-up is fraught with danger and patently wrong.
How can the coach and List Manager ever fully agree on what is best for the team...be it short or long term? Just sets us up for a blame game the way SOS wasn't happy with the way Bolton was working with 'his players' and then Teague dissatisfied for SOS not willing to provide him what he needs.

Re. Your question - The article makes little sense to me but what does make sense to me is - Did anyone hear Vlastuin on SEN yesterday?
Spoke about the need to have a strong and cohesive reserves team. Now that makes sense to me. There was a lot more to it than that, but when you hear it, it ever so obvious and has been for a long time.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

So I just seen something pretty amazing on the main board.
This season our draft picks under SOS will be turning 23-19. (Plus Setterfield, Kennedy) Collingwood’s 2010 premiership side had 14 players in that age bracket. The Bulldogs in 2016 had 13.

The players who were older then that for those sides were.

Boyd, Morris, Picken, Dickson, Wood, Biggs, Dahlhaus, Roughead, Libba

Johnson, Jolly, L.Brown, Davis, Maxwell, Shaw, Ball, Didak

The players on our list this season who will be older then that are and are good players/been capable.

Cripps, Murphy, Curnow, Jones, Casboult, Marchbank, Martin, McGovern, Simpson, Doc, Newman, Betts, Plowman and Kruezer.

Our list of players outside of that younger age bracket stack up very well imo. Now I’m not saying we should be playing off in a grand final or even make finals but what I do think is with the amount of hype we are giving our kids it is about time we start putting performances on the board. Yes we have a lot of improvement left in us but if this list of young kids are actually “special” then it is time for performance not excuses.

 

[Coona Blues]

So I just seen something pretty amazing on the main board.
This season our draft picks under SOS will be turning 23-19. (Plus Setterfield, Kennedy) Collingwood’s 2010 premiership side had 14 players in that age bracket. The Bulldogs in 2016 had 13.

The players who were older then that for those sides were.

Boyd, Morris, Picken, Dickson, Wood, Biggs, Dahlhaus, Roughead, Libba

Johnson, Jolly, L.Brown, Davis, Maxwell, Shaw, Ball, Didak

The players on our list this season who will be older then that are and are good players/been capable.

Cripps, Murphy, Curnow, Jones, Casboult, Marchbank, Martin, McGovern, Simpson, Doc, Newman, Betts, Plowman and Kruezer.

Our list of players outside of that younger age bracket stack up very well imo. Now I’m not saying we should be playing off in a grand final or even make finals but what I do think is with the amount of hype we are giving our kids it is about time we start putting performances on the board. Yes we have a lot of improvement left in us but if this list of young kids are actually “special” then it is time for performance not excuses.

1) You will see us compete hard for, and in my opinion, probably play finals this year.
2) I hate the use of stats. Bloody big difference between most 23yos and most 19yos

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

1) You will see us compete hard for, and in my opinion, probably play finals this year.
2) I hate the use of stats. Bloody big difference between most 23yos and most 19yos

Yeh it can be massive difference.
One thing I took out of it was all of Collingwood’s spine were 23 and under. Same as Weitering, McKay and Curnow. (Their two key defenders were actually only 21)
A lot of the two sides key mids were 20,21,22. The age group that Dow, SPS, LOB, Kennedy, Setterfield, Stoker are coming into. If Cripps and one of Murphy or Curnow can step up and be very good mids it’s not much to expect a couple of those younger ones to really come on. Especially when we have Walsh too. Plus I think we will be playing an older side then these teams we really should be expecting to improve dramatically.

 

[Bostonian]

He does nowadays

Well he doesn't.

Small forwards are quick, elusive and have elite crumbing and kicking ability around goals.

I see very little of those things in Newman's game.

 

[murphster]

If that happens, it means the culture at the club is extremely poor.

I'm confident we won't lose any player we want to retain.

SOS has built a foundation of more than players. He established a strong culture that goes beyond just being part of a club.

The guys we've drafted want to play with each other, for each other and be a part of something great.

It doesn't appear that we've got any salary cap issues, so we should be able to accommodate our players financially as they improve.

Let’s just hope that whoever takes over as list manager keeps a tight rein on the contracts and doesn’t create a big mess as was the case pre SOS, this for me is essential going forward as it is the only way to retain our young guns as well as keeping us in a good financial position to accrue other on field assets going forward.

 

[thylacine60]

we're going to lose players off our list in the future regardless of who handles our cap and how well they do it - can't play all our stars and players wanna play

 

[murphster]

we're going to lose players off our list in the future regardless of who handles our cap and how well they do it - can't play all our stars and players wanna play

Of course we will lose some but it’s a matter of being able to keep the ones we want while extracting maximum value from the ones we lose, I remember last year when Richmond where lauded for helping there depth players get to other clubs for not much return, this to me is stupid and counter productive if you are going to lose players that means you are going to have to replace them so you should be extracting maximum value for those going out so that the quality coming back in is if not better then on par, GWS does this very well but admittedly the players they lose are of a very high caliber but then again ours will be as well and we need to make sure that whoever takes them pays full whack, SOS was very good at this and his replacement needs to be as well.

 

[thylacine60]

there is getting best compensation against assisting the player and abiding by the wishes of someone who clearly wants to go - geelong did it beautifully.....

 

[Sector 7G]

there is getting best compensation against assisting the player and abiding by the wishes of someone who clearly wants to go - geelong did it beautifully.....

Yep- create an environment where you have the players best interest in mind even if it means they move on. The reality is the players they lost were bit players and only worth 3rd rounders at best. Just do the deals quickly and don't waste time in the trade period trying to squeeze a few extra draft spots out of each trade.

 

[BRADLESTICKS]

I feel one of the main strengths of sos was the deals he didn't do and his ability to walk away from a deal he didn't like such as Gibbs, Martin and not overpaying for players such as Shiel and Saad who i believe if he really wanted them he could have paid overs and they would have come our way.
My fear now is Liddle and the new List Manager will overpay for a second rate recruit or free agent next year trying to justify the decision of getting rid of sos.

 

[thylacine60]

I feel one of the main strengths of sos was the deals he didn't do and his ability to walk away from a deal he didn't like such as Gibbs, Martin and not overpaying for players such as Shiel and Saad who i believe if he really wanted them he could have paid overs and they would have come our way.
My fear now is Liddle and the new List Manager will overpay for a second rate recruit or free agent next year trying to justify the decision of getting rid of sos.

you seriously 'fear' this?

 

[Pafloyul]

In a manner of speaking (and)... so do I.

 

[thylacine60]

fmd

 

[Stamos]

fmd

How can you trust Liddle won't interfere? He clearly wanted Ellis at the Club.

We also blew the 1st pick in the mid season draft on an ex Freo player who we got rid of 11 rounds later.

 

[thylacine60]

what the **** can I do about it? and what will endless complaining about it achieve? particularly as it hasn't happened yet - you don't think if liddle survives this backlash he might just keep his head done re player selection in the future? ie taking a learning from it and MOVE ON?

 

[Stamos]

what the fu** can I do about it? and what will endless complaining about it achieve? particularly as it hasn't happened yet - you don't think if liddle survives this backlash he might just keep his head done re player selection in the future? ie taking a learning from it and MOVING ON?

You can't do anything about it.
But I don't think you need to complain about supporters expressing legitimate worries, given the current state of our Club.

 

[thylacine60]

I watched carlton win flags for decades knowing nothing about the inner workings of the club - obliviousness suited me well - the internet has given people more information than they need or know what to do with.......

 

[KohPhi]

How can you trust Liddle won't interfere? He clearly wanted Ellis at the Club.

We also blew the 1st pick in the mid season draft on an ex Freo player who we got rid of 11 rounds later.

Where was it said Liddle wanted Deluca? I was pretty sure Bolton was a fan..

 

[Stamos]

Where was it said Liddle wanted Deluca? I was pretty sure Bolton was a fan..

Freo, not Richmond.
I'm not sure that it's been clarified who over-ruled SOS, just that he didn't want him and was proven right in a very short period of time.
And I don't know how Bolton would be able to make the call about a WAFL player?

 

[Stamos]

I watched carlton win flags for decades knowing nothing about the inner workings of the club - obliviousness suited me well - the internet has given people more information than they need or know what to do with.......

If we were winning Flags, do you think anybody would give a shit?
We weren't hating Elliott the last time we won a flag.

There's a pretty big difference between winning your 16th flag, and finishing 16th on the ladder though.

 

[KohPhi]

Freo, not Richmond.
I'm not sure that it's been clarified who over-ruled SOS, just that he didn't want him and was proven right in a very short period of time.
And I don't know how Bolton would be able to make the call about a WAFL player?

Sorry you've lost me there.. anyway, quick question, what do you think of Eddie coming back?

 

[Stamos]

Sorry you've lost me there.. anyway, quick question, what do you think of Eddie coming back?

OK, my guess is, and this may be completely unfounded, but given that Lloyd was at Fremantle when Deluca was there, and SOS was over-ruled on his selection rather than supported, Lloyd may have had something to do with that pick.

As for Eddie, I don't have a problem with the Senior Coach bringing in a low-cost player whom they have previously coached. See Clarkson with Dew. It helps that he is seen as a long-term off-field acquisition, and plays a position in which we have a derth.
And, like all Carlton supporters, I love Eddie.

 

[bmaurizio]

I watched carlton win flags for decades knowing nothing about the inner workings of the club - obliviousness suited me well - the internet has given people more information than they need or know what to do with.......

Spot on thy and therein lies some of the problems, dissemination of misinformation, call them rumors, grievances and plain old gossip are inflammatory, complicate matters enormously.