Training 2020 Training - pics, reports etc

[Arr0w]

Proof...pudding...that sort of thing.

Martin has the ability but it may be utilised more so at forward stoppages than playing any dedicated midfield role. Could say the same about Betts.

Again - Taking the odd centre bounce doesn't render you a midfielder. What's the obsession?

Dedicated? Who has ever stated that?

No obsession Harks, just going by what the club/Teague just stated, which you love rolling out when it suits you

I have never seen/thought of Martin as purely a forward, ever

50/50, time to get your head around it Harks

 

[HARKER]

Dedicated? Who has ever stated that?
No obsession Harks, just going by what the club/Teague just stated, which you love rolling out when it suits you
I have never seen/thought of Martin as purely a forward, ever
50/50, time to get your head around it Harks

"We have to find out the best balance" says Teague and he was walked into the answer by Watson.

We'll have to see but Martin will play forward and play some time up the ground as will be expected from all players, at different times.

Let's just call everyone a midfielder. It's just easier that way.

 

[Blue__Balls]

I see him like Charlie Cameron or Jeff Garlett under Ratten - push up high lose your defender in traffic, create dangerous forward entries and then beat your opponent back into the forward 50.

Maybe an odd comparison, but I think he potentially ends up playing a similar role to Tom Lynch at Adelaide when they were up and about, with an added emphasis on tackling pressure. That hit-up option who leads aggressively to about 60-70m from goal, who can outmark plenty of opponents and then deliver the ball inside 50 to our leading forwards. Then when the ball gets locked into the forward line, he becomes a pressure forward with sharp goal sense.

Honestly, he's such a versatile player I think we're probably all right to degrees He'll do it all at various times.

 

[Arr0w]

"We have to find out the best balance" says Teague and he was walked into the answer by Watson.

We'll have to see but Martin will play forward and play some time up the ground as will be expected from all players, at different times.

Let's just call everyone a midfielder. It's just easier that way.

Harks, love your interpretation

Teague clearly stated 50/50. Sure there will be a deviation, but it's clear Martin won't be camped in the forward line

Perhaps this little snapshot of how the game is played in the modern era might help you.

CBAs – Draft Doctors

Posts about CBAs written by Haydn 'Dos' Kenny

thedraftdoctors.com.au

Generally 3-4 main mids at centre bounces, then a number of others that rotate. You really need to stop pigeonholing players that have the versatility required to play the game in different areas

 

[Weiterbot23]

Im getting to Malthouse "can't see us losing a game" territory

There will be some serious talent running around in the twos to start the season

 

[Kreuz Control]

Martin 50/50, forward/midfield

Go figure

What a forward line we'll have when we can get all our assets on the park. The talls could honestly dominate the league for 7+ years with hard work and a good run of injury, which I think we all know, right?
Martin and Cuningham provide power, pace and skill, the ability to play mid and higher up the ground can only ever be seen as one thing, a positive.


For the final spot we have the one and only Eddie Betts, the perfect fit for a young forward line and a genuine X-factor forward with the ability to hit the scoreboard, out of nothing, from nowhere.


What happens when Eddie no longer holds his spot is anybody's guess, for now, maybe we find another elite, explosive forward-mid like Martin and Cuningham, from the recent Dow vid they are obviously playing him there more and more which could signal their thinking?


And with the recent praise coming from the club with Kennedy, including DT this morning on SEN, maybe they explore that, who knows? Obviously there are more options internally like maybe Fish and co, plus, targets next year through trade, draft, and FA as well.


Either way, it's going to be exciting, and I haven't been this excited about a Carlton forward line since I can remember, it's been a LOOOOOONG cold winter and I can't compose myself with the thought of us rising again to play finals, BIG FINALS.

 

[Robertio]

Im getting to Malthouse "can't see us losing a game" territory

There will be some serious talent running around in the twos to start the season

Your a bit slow, i've had that thought since they rang the siren to finish round 23 last year.

 

[TwiggleyFanClub]

Spot on - 10% maybe too high

Dont get me started on those that use supercoach or dreamteam points in the argument

Clearly not drinking the Champion Data cool-aid.

 

[Brackets]

Again, not relevant to the point. I wouldn't play Cripps in the backline, either.

The metres gained stat was thrown in to highlight what particular role/strength Newman brings to the table. Specifically, rebound and drive from the back half. Marchbank doesn't add to that, because his strengths are in covering a mobile tall forward, and zoning off to intercept whenever possible.

Yes, you can argue that Marchbank intercepts more balls, which then allows us to rebound more. Maybe that's true, maybe not. Maybe having one more interceptor and one less rebounder results in reduced efficiency in our transition out of the backline.

My belief is that with Doc back in the side, and the form of Weitering, Jones and Plowman, that extra interceptor is less valuable than a player who offers/specialises in rebound play. Nothing to do with who is better, or who should be cut/delisted/traded or any nonsense like that. Simply an opinion on the balancing of the backline group now that we find ourselves pretty flush with talent.

I do like Marchbank, and rate his intercept ability very highly, but Newman really surprised me with his defensive coverage last year. Was a rock back there at times, and obviously reads the play well.

 

[murphster]

Wonder how they define "midfield".

Is it that they expect him to be one of the 6 starting mids at 50% of centre bounces?

Or just that he'll be given license to push up the ground and assist in transition rather than making the forward line his home all the time?

Me thinks the latter would be the case rather than starting at centre stoppages, probably a similar role to Gibbo/Fish last year as a high half forward pushing up to the wing with some occasional stoppage work.

 

[CJMB]

yeah but ......

" Carlton's Patrick Cripps played a brilliant game in Round 5 against the Western Bulldogs, dominating with 37 disposals and 11 clearances in the win. However, he only finished with 84 metres gained. "

Metres gained: Breaking down the AFL's most misunderstood statistic

'Metres gained' has become the sexy statistic that's synonymous with modern footy, but what does it mean and just how valuable is it? ESPN and Champion Data have joined forces to break down everything metres gained and explain what it all means.

www.espn.com

Conversely, against the Lions in round 12 the big dawg managed 460 metres gained.

I think in terms of the ‘eye test’ that’s probably the most impressive performance of his I can remember (38 & 4) and the metres gained stat reflects the more damaging nature of his possessions and impact on the game.

It’s “Gee Cripps is getting a fair bit of it” compared to “holy **** he is ripping this ******* game apart!” and the numbers support what we all watched unfold.

 

[Sharks On A Plane]

to me marchy looks a little awkward when kicking. Maybe he needs to work with Rocco too. Levi also has this issue but his kicking accuracy has improved immensely.

The main problem with Marchbank's kicking is he takes an eternity to get it from hand to foot. This invites opposition pressure and allows him to be closed down at the crucial point of contact. It's a bad and obvious flaw and I feel opposition coaches would be aware of it, and would be specifically instructing their players to keep closing him down even when the chase looks "hopeless".

 

[Accidental genius]

Seems Kennedy and jsos will be fighting for a spot in seniors unless we have injuries to other players. I’m a bit torn between them. I like jsos being out there because he tries so hard and helps things happen but Kennedy is such a dead eye dick kick I feel we need him in the forward line.

 

[Gethelred]

You're severely underestimating Marchbank's scope to cover opponents. Aside from the monsters of the competition and zippiest of small forwards, he can sit on pretty much any player. He and Plow are very versatile.

The only query is where Williamson is at now that he's got some extra size. I'm not sure he's much of a small defender at the moment, but we might opt to have a system that doesn't rely on any defender possessing raw speed to cover such players.

I agree that he's versatile, but I'm talking about the side come round 1, not where I think he'll end up.

I have the fullest confidence in Marchbank - once he gets some continuity - to be an AFL level general defender, but as things stand right now, I don't see him taking Plowman's spot, I don't see him taking Weitering's spot, I don't see him taking Jones' spot. Those are the positions for talls through the backline, so either he takes one of the smalls positions (which is difficult, because we have a list of about 10 players who could be selected as backmen to provide either lockdown, quality of disposal, run and carry, or any combination of the above) which runs the risk of us simply being too tall behind the ball.

Richmond have (had) that luxury because their team defense ensured that the ball coming in was usually high and ripe for the Astbury/Vlaustin/Grimes to block the run of a KPF to the ball drop so that Rance/Houli/Grimes could mark the thing. We have no such swarming team defense, and thus we could be severely exposed should we go in playing 3 and a half KPD's against the wrong setup.

When Jones retires, that's when a rejigging of the roles will occur, and injuries are ever present, so there is no doubt in my mind that he'll get a run. But his inability to shut down a stronger opponent at present means that he cannot play KPD, and he's not taking Plow's spot.

 

[therubbernub]

Again, not relevant to the point. I wouldn't play Cripps in the backline, either.

The metres gained stat was thrown in to highlight what particular role/strength Newman brings to the table. Specifically, rebound and drive from the back half. Marchbank doesn't add to that, because his strengths are in covering a mobile tall forward, and zoning off to intercept whenever possible.

Yes, you can argue that Marchbank intercepts more balls, which then allows us to rebound more. Maybe that's true, maybe not. Maybe having one more interceptor and one less rebounder results in reduced efficiency in our transition out of the backline.

My belief is that with Doc back in the side, and the form of Weitering, Jones and Plowman, that extra interceptor is less valuable than a player who offers/specialises in rebound play. Nothing to do with who is better, or who should be cut/delisted/traded or any nonsense like that. Simply an opinion on the balancing of the backline group now that we find ourselves pretty flush with talent.

Good points . Dont disagree.

 

[FRUMPY]

I agree that he's versatile, but I'm talking about the side come round 1, not where I think he'll end up.

I have the fullest confidence in Marchbank - once he gets some continuity - to be an AFL level general defender, but as things stand right now, I don't see him taking Plowman's spot, I don't see him taking Weitering's spot, I don't see him taking Jones' spot. Those are the positions for talls through the backline, so either he takes one of the smalls positions (which is difficult, because we have a list of about 10 players who could be selected as backmen to provide either lockdown, quality of disposal, run and carry, or any combination of the above) which runs the risk of us simply being too tall behind the ball.

Richmond have (had) that luxury because their team defense ensured that the ball coming in was usually high and ripe for the Astbury/Vlaustin/Grimes to block the run of a KPF to the ball drop so that Rance/Houli/Grimes could mark the thing. We have no such swarming team defense, and thus we could be severely exposed should we go in playing 3 and a half KPD's against the wrong setup.

When Jones retires, that's when a rejigging of the roles will occur, and injuries are ever present, so there is no doubt in my mind that he'll get a run. But his inability to shut down a stronger opponent at present means that he cannot play KPD, and he's not taking Plow's spot.

Or he could be the 3rd tall and plowman takes a med/small like he did quite often last year.

 

[therubbernub]

Needs too be a little more aware on who's around him, at times has been caught or nearly which has effected him releasing the ball by hand or foot...

I think he will enjoy having Jones/weitering/Doc/plow around him. I dont think he has really played with all those guys when they have been in peak form and fitness

 

[BlueTang]

Maybe an odd comparison, but I think he potentially ends up playing a similar role to Tom Lynch at Adelaide when they were up and about, with an added emphasis on tackling pressure. That hit-up option who leads aggressively to about 60-70m from goal, who can outmark plenty of opponents and then deliver the ball inside 50 to our leading forwards. Then when the ball gets locked into the forward line, he becomes a pressure forward with sharp goal sense.

Honestly, he's such a versatile player I think we're probably all right to degrees He'll do it all at various times.

Great post, and would absolutely love that to happen. Lynch made there scoring look easy the way he was delivering the ball to their forwards. Hope you are right

 

[therubbernub]

Martin 50/50, forward/midfield

Go figure

never works....Dusty, danger.......

 

[BlueTang]

Or he could be the 3rd tall and plowman takes a med/small like he did quite often last year.

Some posters put to much an emphasis on height, over ability imo..

 

[Arr0w]

Some posters put to much an emphasis on height, over ability imo..

I agree

Over the last 2 years most were saying we were way too tall down back, which was bebuked with multiple flags to the Hawks and Tigers

Leaving talent to one side, it's always about agility, mobility and speed

 

[Gethelred]

Or he could be the 3rd tall and plowman takes a med/small like he did quite often last year.

... which is what got us suuper exposed whenever we played against shorter forward lines and will continue to get us exposed again.

Let's be clear. In 2019, we had the fourth most points kicked against us. We spent the majority of the year playing too many talls most weeks; some of this can be forgiven on the basis of development and injury forcing our hands, but on the other side of it our relative height made us too slow to go with smaller faster teams. We have no midfield swarm defense, we are not going to be playing a defensive game under Teague, so our structure is going to be significantly different to how it played under Bolton, and one of the ways this will manifest is how we will structure up down back.

Let's also be clear; I see Marchbank as a long term option for us in the ones. However, due to injury and a lack of continuity (coupled with his lack of a determined position/role ahead of other players) I see him playing second 22 footy for some to most of this season. I have approximately zero fleece on the line here, and I have no issue being wrong, if indeed I am; I'd be stoked if the club were of the opinion that he is sufficiently far along that he could replace any one of Plow, Weitering or Jones. But I maintain that, without some means of limiting opposition forward fifty entries to long bombs or to kicks down the line, 3.5 talls is too many for a back six.

 

[HARKER]

But I maintain that, without some means of limiting opposition forward fifty entries to long bombs or to kicks down the line, 3.5 talls is too many for a back six.

Let's work backwards on this one and endeavour to establish what our starting back 6 may be and then see where it takes us
Of course we're considering all players being fit and ready to go -

Weitering - 100%
Jones - 100%
Docherty - 100%
Plowman - 95%
Simpson - 90%

Petrevski-Seton -
Marchbank -
Newman -
Williamson -
Stocker -

Harder for me to apportion odds to the rest, but which of two of that group get first bite?
As much as I like Marchbank, I can't see it being him and if he doesn't get an early call up, we know things can get tricky via our reserves team.

 

[Macca43]

Let's work backwards on this one and endeavour to establish what our starting back 6 may be and then see where it takes us
Of course we're considering all players being fit and ready to go -

Weitering - 100%
Jones - 100%
Docherty - 100%
Plowman - 95%
Simpson - 90%

Petrevski-Seton -
Marchbank -
Newman -
Williamson -
Stocker -

Harder for me to apportion odds to the rest, but which of two of that group get first bite?
As much as I like Marchbank, I can't see it being him and if he doesn't get an early call up, we know things can get tricky via our reserves team.

For me Weitering and Jones give us really solid one on one defenders with high ability to intercept, Plowman was very good last year taking the oppositions best small forward and then SPS, Simpson, Docherty and Newman/Willo give us an incredibly attacking group who can hurt oppositions with their run and footskills.

Marchbank seems a bit in between, which has him just out of the 22 at the minute for me but is a great player to have in reserve.

 

[Gethelred]

Some posters put to much an emphasis on height, over ability imo..

I agree

Over the last 2 years most were saying we were way too tall down back, which was bebuked with multiple flags to the Hawks and Tigers

Leaving talent to one side, it's always about agility, mobility and speed

Which would not be a fair criticism to make of my argument.

I've outlined who he's not taking a position from, as he can't play tall better than Weitering or Jones and he can't play as a mixed defender better than Plowman, ergo it's one of the smalls he's taking a spot from. He's agile and he's fast, but it's a comparative thing given the caveat, for his size; he's not agile or quick compared to Docherty, or SPS, or Simpson.

Anyway, this is list management talk, so anyone looking to discuss this further can quote me over there.