Coronavirus/COVID-19

[LittleG]

You really mean the 2014 election when the Feds refused to produce the $3 bil it was going to provide for the East West Link but which the newly elected Victorian Labour Government walked away from, having promised before the election to honour, and handed the Consortium a cool $1.1 bil of money it didn't have for doing nothing and then wanted the Feds to saddle up again for Railway Crossings, window dressing for political purposes. The Feds were right. Why should the Aus taxpayer pay for absolute stupidity and bloody mindedness? Belt and Road is not just a loan, it's capitulation, Chinese companies contracted, Chinese workers. China pays its own businesses, Victoria pays interest, gives China a foot in the door woe betide us if there's a default. As Victoria gets its money from the Feds and Stamp Duty, that's going to happen unless the Feds stump up, in what will be a recession.

I was hoping you would go here, it isn’t the win you think it is. It is rare for an ABC article to have any fact check issues (they update IF need to and advise at the base of the article), so please read.

Decision to scrap East West Link 'based of flawed advice': auditor-general

The cost to taxpayers of scrapping Melbourne's East West Link project is more than $1.1 billion, the Victorian auditor-general says.

www.abc.net.au

Labour always opposed it. It was signed during caretaker convention and Andrews was never going to construct it, as it has marginal value. Money was better spent elsewhere. Contract carried additional clauses that meant the government had to pay extra money, even though they clearly opposed the project right through negotiations.

Don’t tell people railway crossing removals are cosmetic. It has made a huge difference for many many people.


Not going into the Chinese section. We shouldn’t need the Chinese money.

 

[King Harold]

I was hoping you would go here, it isn’t the win you think it is. It is rare for an ABC article to have any fact check issues (they update IF need to and advise at the base of the article), so please read.

Decision to scrap East West Link 'based of flawed advice': auditor-general

The cost to taxpayers of scrapping Melbourne's East West Link project is more than $1.1 billion, the Victorian auditor-general says.

www.abc.net.au

Labour always opposed it. It was signed during caretaker convention and Andrews was never going to construct it, as it has marginal value. Money was better spent elsewhere. Contract carried additional clauses that meant the government had to pay extra money, even though they clearly opposed the project right through negotiations.

Don’t tell people railway crossing removals are cosmetic. It has made a huge difference for many many people.


Not going into the Chinese section. We shouldn’t need the Chinese money.

Absolutely correct LiitleG.
We unfortunately have a poster on here that either peddles mistruths to put his case or suffers from amnesia.
That election pretty much become a referendum on the very issue
East West v crossings.

 

[LittleG]

Absolutely correct LiitleG.
We unfortunately have a poster on here that either peddles mistruths to put his case or suffers from amnesia.
That election pretty much become a referendum on the very issue
East West v crossings.

DMitchell isn’t a bad poster. He might contradict himself but I do that too.

The one who annoys many posters picks fights over technicalities and might win his technicality but loses the overall argument. He has nothing against the main points, just rhetoric of tired old lines.

 

[LittleG]

It appears as part of the ongoing racial issues in the US, the militia will be called upon to keep the peace. I wish those protesters were taught about voting them out. It would make a huge difference to their own lives, to enrol as many friends & family to vote. About 1/3 of adults there don’t vote. I know they have the right to not vote.... but why not make your voice heard.

The majority of Americans I have met here, there and while travelling; are great people. They didn’t deserve having a COVID-19 run rampant through their country.... none I know have died but two had one of their family in ICU.

 

[King Harold]

DMitchell isn’t a bad poster. He might contradict himself but I do that too.

The one who annoys many posters picks fights over technicalities and might win his technicality but loses the overall argument. He has nothing against the main points, just rhetoric of tired old lines.

You are very kind and understanding.
Everyone’s entitled to an opinion , but to “ invent facts “ to support a position is not worth debating.
No , not a bad poster , you just need to filter out the “ fake news “

 

[Chicago1]

So the riots have spread to Chicago I see. Reminds me of April 1968 right after MLK's assassination. My aunt and her four daughters had flown into the city from LA the previous week for my grandmother's funeral. They were staying with my uncle's family on the near north side of Chicago close to the unofficial dividing line between blacks and whites. I remember my father driving into the city to bring them back to our safe suburb 25 miles away. That was just a few days after President Johnson announced that he wasn't going to run for re-election and just two months before Robert Kennedy was assassinated and four months before the riots at the Democratic Convention in Chicago. What a year to turn 16 in!

 

[Fossie 32]

I was hoping you would go here, it isn’t the win you think it is. It is rare for an ABC article to have any fact check issues (they update IF need to and advise at the base of the article), so please read.

Decision to scrap East West Link 'based of flawed advice': auditor-general

The cost to taxpayers of scrapping Melbourne's East West Link project is more than $1.1 billion, the Victorian auditor-general says.

www.abc.net.au

Labour always opposed it. It was signed during caretaker convention and Andrews was never going to construct it, as it has marginal value. Money was better spent elsewhere. Contract carried additional clauses that meant the government had to pay extra money, even though they clearly opposed the project right through negotiations.

Don’t tell people railway crossing removals are cosmetic. It has made a huge difference for many many people.


Not going into the Chinese section. We shouldn’t need the Chinese money.

Crap effort by both parties with Libs signing on for something that was likely to be shelved then labour shelving it and flushing a billion down the drain

 

[cecil]

Crap effort by both parties with Libs signing on for something that was likely to be shelved then labour shelving it and flushing a billion down the drain

As terrible as pissing away $1billion is, that article said the entire project was worth something like $22billion. You can't fund a project that large after going to an election and saying you won't go ahead with it, and then winning that election.

I'll flag though that I'm not the biggest fan of the sheer expense of North-East Link, or the implications of the Westgate Tunnel project. We've at least had some semblance of proper public transport funding through the Melbourne Metro project which has the potential to really help the growth in the inner west.

 

[Fossie 32]

As terrible as pissing away $1billion is, that article said the entire project was worth something like $22billion. You can't fund a project that large after going to an election and saying you won't go ahead with it, and then winning that election.

I'll flag though that I'm not the biggest fan of the sheer expense of North-East Link, or the implications of the Westgate Tunnel project. We've at least had some semblance of proper public transport funding through the Melbourne Metro project which has the potential to really help the growth in the inner west.

It doesn't say who would have paid the $22 bill?

 

[D Mitchell]

Not going into the Chinese section. We shouldn’t need the Chinese money.

Of course Victorian shouldn't have borrowed Chinese money. Why did it, then ?

The federal government has repeatedly declined to fund Victorian infrastructure.
That's nonsense. The Federal Government offered $3 bil plus in 2014. Federal Government money was approved for a variety of infrastructure projects from 2017 Source https://www.vic.gov.au/victorian-infrastructure-plan and again in 2019, the Federal Government approved the injection of $3.8 bil into Victorian Infrastructure. But even if it was true, that still doesn't justify borrowing from China under the Belt and Road regime.

The money for these much needed projects should have come from the Feds BUT they decided to do tax cuts and pork barrelling (sports rorts and others)

After the debacle of 2014, following which the $3 Bil Fed money was withdrawn because it had been earmarked for the East West Link, the Victorian government commenced on its much touted railway crossing removals in 2016, apparently without Commonwealth funding or approval. It then signed the Belt and Road Memorandum of Understanding in October 2018, altered in October 2019 (nobody knows much about it, very hush hush). The Sports Rorts occurred in 2020. Why should the Federal Government fund spending by Victoria which it does not approve ? Just because the Victorian Government prefers a different project, it can't expect Federal funding as of right, particularly for a showpiece project for political gain.

after years of trying to get funding, See above

found the best conditions for getting the money around. Just like how we sell to China because we get great prices, we borrow from China at great rates. IF they weren’t great rates, then we would borrow from elsewhere.

That looks awfully like a justification for borrowing from the Chinese

In the lead up to the 2014 election, on 10 September 2014, Andrews promised to honour any contract that was valid. Validity of the contract was to be determined in the Supreme Court commencing on 15 December 2014. Andrews cancelled the contract on 12 December.

 

[D Mitchell]

Crap effort by both parties with Libs signing on for something that was likely to be shelved then labour shelving it and flushing a billion down the drain

Quite right. Neither Party covered itself in glory.

 

[D Mitchell]

If you read my post I said "nearly" 100 years ago. And isn't post WW1 long enough to have improved things?

I acknowledge the improvements you quote, but there's still so much that could and should have been improved. Regardless of colour, USA haven't tackled their poverty stricken at all. There's nothing equivalent of our health system and even the general welfare system is limited. It's not like they don't have the money - you said it yourself "American entrepreneurs dominate the world economy". Perhaps it's time they spent it in their own backyard and ensured altruism came into the psyche because the money, technology and peace deals are all about what's in it for them - not about what good they can do for others just for the sake of improving the world.

They're are now viewed across the world as a basket case, even by their own allies - I can see Kim, Xi and Vlad belly laughing now.

It's beyond me why they don't have a public health system, why they perpetuate ridiculous gun laws, why they tolerate the level of wealth disparity they do. That these inanities continue is because that's what they want. They have s concept of 'freedom' which justifies these sorts of imponderables. These issues have been around forever. That's their way. I don't agree that the world considers them a basket case. Many are as puzzled by them as I am but that doesn't make them a basket case.

 

[Fossie 32]

It doesn't say who would have paid the $22 bill?

Hmm lot of figures thrown around - this says Sate would have paid 3.3 Commonwealth 1.5 and tolls 8 ......... the state would be paying about $345 million per year to the tollroad operators in availability payments, against toll revenue of $200 million. Maybe Labor biased I guess ... also environmental negatives

Cancelling East West Link cost $780m, but saved $4b

This is old news, but it keeps coming up, and I never got around to blogging about it in detail, so...The popular narrative of East West Link (from those who wanted it built) is that the Andrews G

www.danielbowen.com

 

[footscray1973]

The federal government has repeatedly declined to fund Victorian infrastructure.
That's nonsense. The Federal Government offered $3 bil plus in 2014. Federal Government money was approved for a variety of infrastructure projects from 2017 Source https://www.vic.gov.au/victorian-infrastructure-plan and again in 2019, the Federal Government approved the injection of $3.8 bil into Victorian Infrastructure. But even if it was true, that still doesn't justify borrowing from China under the Belt and Road regime.

Try again. It was conditional, and the feds were trying to dictate how a state govt should spend money. Invalidates your other points, which I can’t be bothered addressing, in the same way you ignore posts that challenge your statements.

 

[LittleG]

Hmm lot of figures thrown around - this says Sate would have paid 3.3 Commonwealth 1.5 and tolls 8 ......... the state would be paying about $345 million per year to the tollroad operators in availability payments, against toll revenue of $200 million. Maybe Labor biased I guess ... also environmental negatives

Cancelling East West Link cost $780m, but saved $4b

This is old news, but it keeps coming up, and I never got around to blogging about it in detail, so...The popular narrative of East West Link (from those who wanted it built) is that the Andrews G

www.danielbowen.com

Simple maths tells me we saved a lot of money not building that toll road under that contract.... why we entered a contract so terrible in the first place, has me stumped.

But then I look up who gives the Liberal party funding... and it all makes sense.

 

[Fossie 32]

Simple maths tells me we saved a lot of money not building that toll road under that contract.... why we entered a contract so terrible in the first place, has me stumped.

But then I look up who gives the Liberal party funding... and it all makes sense.

And that is ..... ?

 

[DogNabbit]

Yes, the alliteration works better. The Dictator / Chairman epithets arise from the overzealous imposition of rules on self isolation. That’s just a bit of fun, not much of an insult. Golf’s a trivial issue. Return to work is more serious but doesn’t worry me, Belt and Road really does, though. That’s not all Andrews’ doing, if he was the only one it wouldn’t have happened. Cabinet and Government, which means the ALP, share the opprobrium. What’s the Auditor General doing ? Budget Estimates 2019-2020 Report predicts debt of $51 bil by 2023 and acknowledges reduced revenue because of falling real estate prices. Is he intimidated by Pallas after the Transurban extension issue last year ?

Yeah I understand your feelings on Dan Andrews/ALP and I don't agree to be totally honest, on the pandemic he's been pretty clear and calm in how he's acted, as have most politicians in Australia through this time, which I found personally quite uplifting. I also think your laying a lot on his plate, that exists outside of the scope of control in a pandemic, in terms of the budget and I don't know if i have the same fear of debt.

The belt and road project I don't have strong feeling towards either but I think there is a bit of an over exaggeration of the dangers of China, they've become a sort of bogey man for Australian politics. Are they trying to exert soft power throughout Australia? absolutely. Do they exercise that power at times in ways I find to be distasteful and disruptive ? for sure. However the deal that Victoria is able to parse out probably will be relatively neutral for us, certaintly you could point to China's overseas record in some countries like Sri Lanka or Kenya which are undeniably bad but australia also has more relative bargaining power compared to those countries and China has differnt motivations when it comes to us. I think in general there's a tenancy to look at global politics as too black and white, I don't love China and they almost certainly are looking out for their own interest in these deals, I also have many qualms and worries about their internal politics. However the underlying assumption that any deal with China is a inherently negetive one seems like it's an unsustainable position and certainly not one that's born out in any reality by any of the Labour and Liberal governments in Australia despite the postering that often attempts to indicate otherwise . In reality I think global interaction and trade often brings countries into more harmonious interactions with each other, the world is not a zero sum game and China is not an exception.

I understood where the nickname came from and all in all thought it's a bit of a gimmicky name but thats politics for ya! I was just really old originally commenting on the language element sounding better but thought I may as well dip my toe in the water of constructive debate as I have some time to kill today.

 

[Mattdougie]

Don’t care what colour you are if you are “protesting” with a complete face covering you are not there for any other reason other than to cause trouble.

This crap has nothing to do with Mr Floyd now, as I’ve said several times it doesn’t matter who leads the US they are a basket case

 

[Dogs 13]

Only 207 looting days til Christmas.

 

[NBates]

staying with my uncle's family on the north side of Chicago

Opposite side of town to Leroy Brown!

 

[charcoalchicken]

Don’t care what colour you are if you are “protesting” with a complete face covering you are not there for any other reason other than to cause trouble.

This crap has nothing to do with Mr Floyd now, as I’ve said several times it doesn’t matter who leads the US they are a basket case

agree with this, america seems like they are in a serious mess, looks from the outside that they are falling apart at the seams

 

[NBates]

Talking about crappy government....... today is the day new live export regulations are meant to come into effect. From June 1st, a three-month live export ban has been introduced as a result of the public exposure of the routine and extreme suffering of animals, particularly sheep, exported live from Australia at this time of year.

So a live export ship docks in Freo, but the ship's crew tests positive for Covid19! So what does our Federal Agriculture Minister, David Littleproud do? Well he plans to make an exemption for the plagued crew carrying ship.

Nice work Federal Govt - your legislation's not worth the paper it's written on.

You can sign one of these if it pisses you off as much as it does me:

Live Sheep Export Phase Out

Australia is closer than it has ever been to ending live sheep export. Here's how you can help make sure we #LegislateTheDate.

www.rspca.org.au

Sheep condemned to deadly summer voyage: DEMAND ANSWERS

Sheep exported live during banned summer period! 🚫🛳

secure.animalsaustralia.org

 

[Mattdougie]

agree with this, america seems like they are in a serious mess, looks from the outside that they are falling apart at the seams

A Current Affair is a disgusting show, doing everything they can to blame or point the finger at Trump.

The man is a buffoon but he is not the first President to have “race riots” and won’t be the last.

Is it ok to ask where the “race riots” were when the coloured policeman shot Justine Damond? Or is that racist to even ask that question?

There has NEVER been a year in US history were police have killed more coloured people than white people

The US has a systematic police brutality and excessive force issue that has nothing to do with race or creed. The amount of people killed by cops in the US is astounding

 

[ScragCity]

A Current Affair is a disgusting show, doing everything they can to blame or point the finger at Trump.

The man is a buffoon but he is not the first President to have “race riots” and won’t be the last.

Is it ok to ask where the “race riots” were when the coloured policeman shot Justine Damond? Or is that racist to even ask that question?

There has NEVER been a year in US history were police have killed more coloured people than white people

"Racism doesn't exist," is the new "it's just the flu!"

 

[Mattdougie]

Quite right. A black bloke gets shot in Minnesota. Within a day or so, there’s burning, looting, shootings, mob rule all over the country such that the National Guard is called out and Trumpie threatens to call out the Military, here’s a thought, under the Alliance, do we have to send in the SAS ? That this is about black lives matter is nonsense, for that matter, perhaps that whole movement is. Blacks make up around 13 % of the population [URL] https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/IPE120218 [/URL]

around 22 % of Police killings are Blacks, that’s 85% more than the population proportion. On the other hand, 78 % of police killings are non blacks. Will anyone support my White/Hispanic/Asian/Sub-Continental lives matter movement ? If so, contact LittleG, he has a paypal accountto contribute to. Please make out cheques to the D Mitchell Drinking Fund.

Consider
(a) more than 50 % of murder victims are blacks, the US Police kill less than half the number of blacks that the ono police community do
(b) blacks convicted of homicide deaths are 315 % more than their proportion, ssexual assault 404 %, criminal assault 274 %
[URL] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J076v30n01_01?journalCode=wjor20 [/URL]

Blacks are over represented in Police killings but they are also far more over represented in murders, as both victims and perpetrators, particularly as perpetrators, and other violent crime.

For the statistically minded and interested enough to look beyond the headlines (I don’t blame you if you aren’t, this is a footy forum, bored and all as we all are, it’s on the other side of the World and it’s those world joke Americans), at great expense to the author poster, below find set out figures that break up police killings into 3 racial/ethnic categories, Whites, Black, Hispanics for the years 2017 – 2019. Until bigfooty introduces Excell friendly software or I get beyond the quill and ink, I can’t guarantee it’ll line up. In summary, though. Whites make up around 76 % of Americans, Blacks, 13 % and Hispanics 18 %. Of those the Cops kill, around 40 % are White, 22 % are Blacks (around 185 % more than the statistically expected) and around 16 %, Hispanic.

year total deaths w b h
76% 13% 18%
2017 987 46 % 22 % 18 %
2018 996 40 % 22 % 14 %
2019 1006 37 % 23 % 16 %
[URL] https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/[/URL]



Quite wrong. USA is as far from a basket case as is possible.

My point is was that all things aren’t race wars.


The US need to concentrate on police deaths as a whole not just a single race issue.

Sorry I will respectfully disagree, thinking the US isn’t a basket case right now only needs a five min viewing of what’s going on over there now to show how far off the scale they are on many many levels