Moved Thread Bailey Smith vs Sam Walsh

[flipper83]

I like the Selwood comparison for what Walsh might end up.

As far as his disposal goes it's worth noting that a lot of his kicks are probably under fatigue due to the amount of ground he covers. Carlton also don't seem to have much structure as far as moving the ball forward which makes finding a target a lot more difficult.

I'm sure his kicking will improve as his fitness increases and Carlton develop as a team together.

As for Smith, I think his best comparison for potential is Dusty. He has a similar appetite for taking the game on, has great skills and is powerful and balanced. Obviously power and explosiveness aren't at the level yet but hopefully he can get there.

 

[Flags_In_The_Bag]

I didn't say he was - the implication was that Walsh is harder, which I is one of his defining characteristics.

Weird thing to go back and pick out.

Saying Walsh is harder right now or will be is way wrong IMO

 

[Flags_In_The_Bag]

I think you'd have to be on drugs to take Walsh ahead of Baz.

Baz has the complete game outside of contested marking.

He has the ability to size up the right options while dancing around in stoppages (broke someones ankles at GWS) just about every time. Having a high d/e playing mostly inside has been rare outside of guys like Pendlebury. Right now he's an inside mid but he can play Wing, HF or HB if needed.

I notice a lot that when he is being tackled by one or two players he is shrugging off while looking and succeeding in dishing to an outside player

 

[La Dispute]

Saying Walsh is harder right now or will be is way wrong IMO

Have a look at the number of contests he's backing into in his first year against much bigger opponents. Not many skinny 18-year olds would be going back with the flight with Jarrod Witts coming in from the other side.

I don't doubt Macrae has developed a harder edge to his game, but Walsh has had extreme courage from the get go.

At the same age Walsh is miles ahead for toughness.

 

[Virgin Dog]

In his second year. Very different eras. I’m talking about the AFL one. Do you all have the memories of gold fish or is it just kane Cornes-esque trolling for attention.

Chris Grant kicked 51 goals as a 17 year old. Still standing by Walsh?

 

[Flags_In_The_Bag]

Have a look at the number of contests he's backing into in his first year against much bigger opponents. Not many skinny 18-year olds would be going back with the flight with Jarrod Witts coming in from the other side.

I don't doubt Macrae has developed a harder edge to his game, but Walsh has had extreme courage from the get go.

At the same age Walsh is miles ahead for toughness.

Toughness and appitite to not loose a contest we're the reasons we picked Macrae at that early pick. Pointing out that one instance is also not right because unless you have watched all our games you wouldn't know of the times macrae goes in hard

 

[La Dispute]

Toughness and appitite to not loose a contest we're the reasons we picked Macrae at that early pick. Pointing out that one instance is also not right because unless you have watched all our games you wouldn't know of the times macrae goes in hard

I suspect you're arguing just for the sake of it, but Macrae played as an outside player for years before transitioning into a full time midfielder. Even at TAC Cup level he was predominantly an outside player. Walsh has essentially started in the square from his first game.

I'm highlighting the contest against Witts because it shows how courageous he is. There would be few senior players, let along skinny first years, willing to put their body on the line in that fashion. You can add in his first goal when he again had to take a mark going back with the flight with two players bearing down - I'm sure you find plenty more examples, but you get the picture: the kid is a hard nut.

Weird thing to still be upset by though. Still some PTSD from when opposition posters used to pot Macrae for his very outside game?

 

[BoundbyKreuze]

Chris Grant kicked 51 goals as a 17 year old. Still standing by Walsh?

Yep.

 

[BoundbyKreuze]

Explain to me how I’m trolling? You’re the one saying Walsh is the next Judd and future greatest player of all time! Your argument is absolutely laughable.

I’m judging it from his first season being the best from an 18 year old this century. People have been finding ways to knock him down since his debut. Because he plays for Carlton and doesn’t play for their team. I’m saying he could turn into Judd or Buckley levels or even supersede them no one truly knows. If we project from the only full season he’s had so far it’s logical to think he could be one of the greatest. I’m not trying to say he will be but everyone else on here is riding him off them using my comments as if they are gospel from Carlton supporters. Read back through. I’m only saying it’s a possibility and basing it off his first year output it the best that’s been seen in a very long time hence why he smashed all the first year mid records.
To answer the big question, Walsh v Smith. It’s Walsh hands down. I wouldn’t trade him for anybody in the AFL right now. Even Rowell. However, that opinion may change as the season progresses.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

He was also 20 and in a different time. Walsh is still 19 today.

How can you say "Greatest of all time" and when I show you a clearly better example, you say "it was a different time"? those statements are inherently contradictory.

Also damn right it was a different time - when Coleman kicked 100 goals in his first year, do you want to guess what the next best goal tally was in the entire competition? 65 goals! That's right - Coleman as a skinny kid played key position and kicked nearly twice as many goals as anyone else in the comp!! In fact, there were only 3 other guys who even kicked 50 goals that year! Coleman also finished 4th in the Brownlow (from just 18 games) and kicked 15 goals in his 3 finals.

Walsh's "greatest first season of all time" that you have evidenced with his high disposal numbers placed him, by contrast, 40th in the comp for 2019. Fair difference between 40th in the comp vs way better than anyone else in the comp.

Besides, Coleman was just one of many example I could have used. Don't get me wrong - Walsh had a fantastic, noteworthy first season but "Greatest of all time" is trotted out way to often - it is disrespectful to the long, storied history of our great game.

 

[BEaston]

I suspect you're arguing just for the sake of it, but Macrae played as an outside player for years before transitioning into a full time midfielder. Even at TAC Cup level he was predominantly an outside player. Walsh has essentially started in the square from his first game.

I'm highlighting the contest against Witts because it shows how courageous he is. There would be few senior players, let along skinny first years, willing to put their body on the line in that fashion. You can add in his first goal when he again had to take a mark going back with the flight with two players bearing down - I'm sure you find plenty more examples, but you get the picture: the kid is a hard nut.

Weird thing to still be upset by though. Still some PTSD from when opposition posters used to pot Macrae for his very outside game?

Not questioning or comparing Walsh's toughness but I think you're underselling Macrae's hardness quite a bit. He absolutely tough as nails, puts his body on line consistently and never shows any inclination of backing down, fear or hurt. Yes he was an outside player to begin his career but he was tough as hell from day 1. And I say this as not the biggest Macrae fan. His best attributes are his handballing in close and his toughness.
I think opposition fans that don't watch him every week wouldn't know how tough he is. Absolute hard nut.

 

[Port Adel Proud]

Lots of useful analysis here, however, this issue may have a simple resolution. What school(s) did they go to ? Apparently that is the real test according to the private school mafia which commentates on such matters.

 

[La Dispute]

Not questioning or comparing Walsh's toughness but I think you're underselling Macrae's hardness quite a bit. He absolutely tough as nails, puts his body on line consistently and never shows any inclination of backing down, fear or hurt. Yes he was an outside player to begin his career but he was tough as hell from day 1. And I say this as not the biggest Macrae fan. His best attributes are his handballing in close and his toughness.
I think opposition fans that don't watch him every week wouldn't know how tough he is. Absolute hard nut.

There really does seem to be some schizophrenia going on.

If I make reference to a player being hard (in comparison to another player) that doesn't then deem the other player as soft.

Macrae's toughness just seems to be a major sore spot for Bulldog supporters?

 

[BEaston]

There really does seem to be some schizophrenia going on.

If I make reference to a player being hard (in comparison to another player) that doesn't then deem the other player as soft.

Macrae's toughness just seems to be a major sore spot for Bulldog supporters?

As I said, not commenting on Walsh at all or comparing. I'm just looking at your comments about Macrae in isolation.
It's just correcting misinformation. As I said, I think a lot of supporters that don't watch him every week either don't understand or understate how tough he is.
Again, saying this as not a huge macrae fan.
Not sure what schizophrenia has to do with it.

 

[flipper83]

I’m judging it from his first season being the best from an 18 year old this century. People have been finding ways to knock him down since his debut. Because he plays for Carlton and doesn’t play for their team.

Perhaps you are finding ways to push him ahead of everyone else because he plays for Carlton and not another team.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

I’m judging it from his first season being the best from an 18 year old this century.

Ok - so when you said "Greatest first year of all time" what you meant was "Best of the last 19 years (can't say 20 as Rowell may yet prove better) and excluding mature agers (like Tim Kelly the year before, etc.)"

Well, that is much, much closer to the truth.

However, I still feel like I can highlight examples of others that were better.

Toby Greene is one example. Greene averaged more possessions, contested possessions, clearances, tackles and goals playing in a worse team than Walsh.

In fact, in Toby's last 9 games of his first year, he went - 31 disposals (and a goal), 34 disposals, 30 disposals (and a goal), 29 disposals, 35 disposals, 31 disposals, 38 disposals, 34 disposals and 38 disposals (and 2 goals).

In those last 9 games alone, Greene had 8 x 30+ disposal games and 3 x 35+ disposal games. In Walsh's entire first year, he had 4 x 30+ disposal games and 0 35+ disposals games. He has also is also still yet to kick 2 goals in a game.

 

[La Dispute]

As I said, not commenting on Walsh at all or comparing. I'm just looking at your comments about Macrae in isolation.
It's just correcting misinformation. As I said, I think a lot of supporters that don't watch him every week either don't understand or understate how tough he is.
Again, saying this as not a huge macrae fan.
Not sure what schizophrenia has to do with it.

Why bother commenting about something in isolation? Look at what has been said prior.

I made a positive comparison with Walsh and Macrae, highlighting how I thought Walsh would develop. My comment was essentially Walsh would become a tougher version of Macrae, which is no slight on Macrae, but more a pretty substantial indication of how tough Walsh is.

You and another Bulldog poster then went on a tangent about how *not soft* Macrae is/was. That's the kind of general schizophrenia I'm referring to, and is rampant on Bigfooty.

 

[Iamspock]

All I can say in this debate, is that I am ecstatic that Baz is playing for the Bulldogs, and that I will be for years to come.

 

[BEaston]

Why bother commenting about something in isolation? Look at what has been said prior.

I made a positive comparison with Walsh and Macrae, highlighting how I thought Walsh would develop. My comment was essentially Walsh would become a tougher version of Macrae, which is no slight on Macrae, but more a pretty substantial indication of how tough Walsh is.

You and another Bulldog poster then went on a tangent about how *not soft* Macrae is/was. That's the kind of general schizophrenia I'm referring to, and is rampant on Bigfooty.

Mate, there's no rules on what parts of posts people can discuss, or reply to, or add to, or whatever. Seriously, it's a discussion forum.... people are going to go on tangents (not that I think this was a tangent as the topic of Macrae's toughness was already raised). It's how discussions happen on here. I don't think it's got anything to do with schizophrenia but you seem intent on that so OK. I mean, what you do you want in a forum? One person to state something then everyone just reply yes or no? My god.

Why bother commenting? Well I already answered that above: to correct disinformation.

 

[CarnTheScray]

Not to discredit Walsh but Smith by far.

 

[La Dispute]

Mate, there's no rules on what parts of posts people can discuss, or reply to, or add to, or whatever. Seriously, it's a discussion forum.... people are going to go on tangents (not that I think this was a tangent as the topic of Macrae's toughness was already raised). It's how discussions happen on here. I don't think it's got anything to do with schizophrenia but you seem intent on that so OK. I mean, what you do you want in a forum? One person to state something then everyone just reply yes or no? My god.

Why bother commenting? Well I already answered that above: to correct disinformation.

So the exact semantics you are interested in were already clarified, but you wanted to keep on labouring the point because... ?

I think Bulldogs supporters get triggered by any sentence that contains the terms 'Macrae' and 'toughness' and have to overcompensate because of what has been said about his courage in the past.

Move on mate, nothing negative has been said about Macrae in this case.

 

[Ambrosia]

As for Smith, I think his best comparison for potential is Dusty. He has a similar appetite for taking the game on, has great skills and is powerful and balanced. Obviously power and explosiveness aren't at the level yet but hopefully he can get there.

Smith looks like a jet but I don’t see the Dusty comparisons at all

 

[BEaston]

So the exact semantics you are interested in were already clarified, but you wanted to keep on labouring the point because... ?

I think Bulldogs supporters get triggered by any sentence that contains the terms 'Macrae' and 'toughness' and have to overcompensate because of what has been said about his courage in the past.

Move on mate, nothing negative has been said about Macrae in this case.

Actually, you didn't clarify any of the points I was interested in. You responded with further comparison to Walsh, which was not commented on by either me or the other guy (I tried to make it as clear as possible that it wasn't about Walsh but you doubled down, or maybe tripled down on that). No argument on your opinion that Walsh is harder than Macrae or will be. That's up to you. I was simply refuting some of the reasons you gave for the assessment on Macrae (outside player = not tough, suggesting he did not perform courageous acts in his first year as Walsh has, etc) and made a general comment that supporters of opposition teams tend to underrate his toughness if they don't watch him week to week.

I didn't labour the point at all. I literally replied once about you underselling Macrae's toughness and gave some reasoning for that POV, then you started going on about mental disorders and the convo has gone on from there about other things such as you questioning my reasoning for posting what I wish.

 

[La Dispute]

Actually, you didn't clarify any of the points I was interested in. You responded with further comparison to Walsh, which was not commented on by either me or the other guy (I tried to make it as clear as possible that it wasn't about Walsh but you doubled down, or maybe tripled down on that). No argument on your opinion that Walsh is harder than Macrae or will be. That's up to you. I was simply refuting some of the reasons you gave for the assessment on Macrae (outside player = not tough, suggesting he did not perform courageous acts in his first year as Walsh has, etc) and made a general comment that supporters of opposition teams tend to underrate his toughness if they don't watch him week to week.

I didn't labour the point at all. I literally replied once about you underselling Macrae's toughness and gave some reasoning for that POV, then you started going on about mental disorders and the convo has gone on from there about other things such as you questioning my reasoning for posting what I wish.

Give up mate, you're around in circles trying to fill in gaps that don't exist, responding to arguments that haven't been made.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Not to discredit Walsh but Smith by far.

Lol. You Dogs fans are so insecure.

Can accept people saying Smith is or will be better, but by far is a load of bollocks.