Past #50: Ben Brown - Traded to Melbourne with 2020 #28 + 2021 R4 for 2020 #26 #33 + 2021 R4(Bris) - 130 gms / 287 gls - thanks Ben

[gokangas]

Hopefully one day when you grow a little older, you might actually learn a little bit about the football caper.

In form, BennyB sits alongside Jeremy Cameron, Josh Kennedy and Tom Hawkins as the best 4 spearheads in the game. Right now he is suffering through a combination of factors, including poor delivery, a shocking injury list at the top of which sits our reigning B & F, the absence of Nick Larkey as an alternative target and in a year like no other we have ever seen.

He will find form and when it comes, alongside some diminution of all of those other factors, he will return to kicking goals, just like he has in the past.

Horace, I agree with you in principle, with this rider - everyone has a price. I would only trade BBB if the deal landed us a huge name. Has to be the old ’make em an offer the can’t refuse’. BBB is a very good player and we should not underestimate his marketing value. My nephews two girls (6&8) love him. They go to footy with us just to watch Ben. I am a no-maybe.

 

[Event Horizon]

I don't buy the trade Brown argument. Firstly, before we look at it from football perspective, in any industry you don't sell at your lowest point, unless you absolutely have to. Brown's value today would be the lowest it's been since 2014.
Secondly, given what he's done over the last 3 seasons since Petrie's been gone, shows that he can play well against the best defender and the double teaming. You don't kick over 60 goals 3 years running otherwise. His current form is a combination of factors, and lack of confidence is the main one, which is shown by his goal kicking being affected. Every player goes through that, and I am sure if we were to improve as the season goes on, so would he. In fact he looked better against Richmond, and should have kicked 3 goals really.

He is also extremely loyal and a club in our position simply has to reward that, or else our list management would become that much harder.

And on the positive side, his current slump helps us to lock him in at a cheaper rate, which will seem like a bargain when he's up and about eventually.

 

[disco_cowboy]

You know that saying in Moneyball.. he gets on base - that is Brown.

It doesn't matter that he might be weak in the contest - he kicks goals.. bags of them.

Thats what he needs to do and he does it, better than anyone else in the comp.

Currently the team is down on form and as such so is he - you can trade him if we get something worth while back but we don't have anyone who can replace him.

Larkey can't kick 60 goals a season yet, he hasn't even played a game yet this season and when he did during pre-season he wasn't dangerous by himself.

Saying Larkey/Comben can fill the gap is naive, we would need to get back a middle tier tall forward back in his trade to at least.

 

[King Corey]

I like that in the space of a few pages Charlie Comben has gone from an unproven, uncapped draftee with ongoing back issues to an 18yo Buddy Franklin.

 

[The Nostradamus]

Suns pumping games into Ben king I liked along with what saints did with max king- was injured this Didn’t play at all in his first year like Comben

Then once healthy gave him every game in his second year like we can do with Comben

 

[Passmore]

You know that saying in Moneyball.. he gets on base - that is Brown.

It doesn't matter that he might be weak in the contest - he kicks goals.. bags of them.

Thats what he needs to do and he does it, better than anyone else in the comp.

Currently the team is down on form and as such so is he - you can trade him if we get something worth while back but we don't have anyone who can replace him.

Larkey can't kick 60 goals a season yet, he hasn't even played a game yet this season and when he did during pre-season he wasn't dangerous by himself.

Saying Larkey/Comben can fill the gap is naive, we would need to get back a middle tier tall forward back in his trade to at least.

The debate is not about what Brown can do now. We know that. Given the right circumstances he'll kick a lot of goals. We'll get players back and start finding form at some point and he'll get out of this rut. It's about where we see our list and if we truly believe that we can compete for a premiership in the next 3-5 years. I'm not talking about running 6-10th, I'm talking premierships.

If we think we can win, then keep him. If we don't, then you'd have to look at the possibility and what we could get in return and how that could set us up down the track. And by trading him you are fully aware that you're not replacing him immediately.

 

[disco_cowboy]

The debate is not about what Brown can do now. We know that. Given the right circumstances he'll kick a lot of goals. We'll get players back and start finding form at some point and he'll get out of this rut. It's about where we see our list and if we truly believe that we can compete for a premiership in the next 3-5 years. I'm not talking about running 6-10th, I'm talking premierships.

If we think we can win, then keep him. If we don't, then you'd have to look at the possibility and what we could get in return and how that could set us up down the track. And by trading him you are fully aware that you're not replacing him immediately.

Thats a very good point.. how long does a rebuild take?? If its more than 5 years and we are still building then something has gone wrong.

Add to this we have a group of 19-22 year old players who should be playing great footy in 3-5 years: Simpkin, LDU, Thomas, Taylor, Zurhaar, Larkey etc.

Add to this what we currently hold in currency (2 first round picks) and what we want (more picks or a player in their prime)?

I don't think we need more picks this year, could look at a good player in the age bracket 22-25 but getting someone who is elite in this bracket akin to Brown would be next to impossible. That said I would love to know who you think our trade targets would be and how achievable it would be?

 

[big_e]

Except that we put Walker inside 50 last week and he played well - took marks, competed hard, won his own ball - and I dont think anyone thinks of him as a gun forward.

We put Walker inside 50 and this also happened:

Ben Brown took the most marks inside 50 that he's had all season.
Ben Brown had the second most scoring shots that he's had all season.

 

[Passmore]

Thats a very good point.. how long does a rebuild take?? If its more than 5 years and we are still building then something has gone wrong.

Add to this we have a group of 19-22 year old players who should be playing great footy in 3-5 years: Simpkin, LDU, Thomas, Taylor, Zurhaar, Larkey etc.

Add to this what we currently hold in currency (2 first round picks) and what we want (more picks or a player in their prime)?

I don't think we need more picks this year, could look at a good player in the age bracket 22-25 but getting someone who is elite in this bracket akin to Brown would be next to impossible. That said I would love to know who you think our trade targets would be and how achievable it would be?

I'm not advocating trading Brown, to be honest I really don't know where I sit.

I'm just saying the club would need to be brutally honest with where they see themselves. And how much footy do we think Brown has left. Is it closer to 3 or as much as 5. Can these kids be consistent impact players in this time? What if we somehow did bring Zac Williams in? The injured kids all stay fit together. Jack has an Indian summer.

All I'm saying is that there is a shit load to consider.

 

[shimaburnsgrieg]

I don't buy the trade Brown argument. Firstly, before we look at it from football perspective, in any industry you don't sell at your lowest point, unless you absolutely have to. Brown's value today would be the lowest it's been since 2014.
Secondly, given what he's done over the last 3 seasons since Petrie's been gone, shows that he can play well against the best defender and the double teaming. You don't kick over 60 goals 3 years running otherwise. His current form is a combination of factors, and lack of confidence is the main one, which is shown by his goal kicking being affected. Every player goes through that, and I am sure if we were to improve as the season goes on, so would he. In fact he looked better against Richmond, and should have kicked 3 goals really.

He is also extremely loyal and a club in our position simply has to reward that, or else our list management would become that much harder.

And on the positive side, his current slump helps us to lock him in at a cheaper rate, which will seem like a bargain when he's up and about eventually.

This doesn't make sense.

1. If the value is not there in trading BBB - and that needs to be a top 10 pick plus a pick around 18 - then we don't trade and we seek to resign him.

2. If we decide to keep BBB and then low ball the offer he will look to leave for a better offer (which he will get if the industry assumes his form slump is temporary).

This will be BBB's last contract - he has a young family - he is not going to be low balled on dollars or duration.

If we want to keep him we will have to pay full rack rate.

 

[7577969923]

I like that in the space of a few pages Charlie Comben has gone from an unproven, uncapped draftee with ongoing back issues to an 18yo Buddy Franklin.

Every week our unavailable players miss the better they seem to get.

 

[DrZaius]

Trading him now makes zero sense from any perspective. His value is now at the lowest it has ever been so anyone expecting 2 first rounders are ****ing kidding themselves. Not to mention he is invaluable from a club marketing point of view.

 

[Hojuman]

Every week our unavailable players miss the better they seem to get.

Bit like pre-season " rd. 1 team " thread includes Wood and Garner.

 

[outwecome2play]

It's amazing how when things aren't going well the solution is to trade players out. We will never get another Brown. If we were in the top and he had kicked 20-30 games this conversation wouldn't be happening. We need to clear out some players but these players are not in the top bracket and can easily be replaced.
Last year people wanted to trade out Goldy and Higgins. Imagine where we would be without Goldy and imagine where Geelong would be if they got him. I am all for improving our team but not other teams.

 

[King Corey]

Trading him now makes zero sense from any perspective. His value is now at the lowest it has ever been so anyone expecting 2 first rounders are ******* kidding themselves. Not to mention he is invaluable from a club marketing point of view.

First rounders aren't first rounders either.

If you were talking 2x top 5 picks, well I'm heavily in the "keep" camp but I'd be thinking about it.

But 2x first rounders could be friggin 16 and 18. In of the most fractured scouting years leading into a draft. No thanks.

 

[Event Horizon]

The debate is not about what Brown can do now. We know that. Given the right circumstances he'll kick a lot of goals. We'll get players back and start finding form at some point and he'll get out of this rut. It's about where we see our list and if we truly believe that we can compete for a premiership in the next 3-5 years. I'm not talking about running 6-10th, I'm talking premierships.

If we think we can win, then keep him. If we don't, then you'd have to look at the possibility and what we could get in return and how that could set us up down the track. And by trading him you are fully aware that you're not replacing him immediately.

I don't buy this strategy. By that logic we'll have to trade Higgins, Cunnington, Goldy, Polec, Ziebell and Tarrant as well as Brown.
And will be down the bottom for 3-5 years, and then there are no guarantees that the likes of LDU, Simpkin and TT will be keen to stick around to play in a losing side etc etc Not to mention about membership and other factors.

 

[Event Horizon]

This doesn't make sense.

1. If the value is not there in trading BBB - and that needs to be a top 10 pick plus a pick around 18 - then we don't trade and we seek to resign him.

2. If we decide to keep BBB and then low ball the offer he will look to leave for a better offer (which he will get if the industry assumes his form slump is temporary).

This will be BBB's last contract - he has a young family - he is not going to be low balled on dollars or duration.

If we want to keep him we will have to pay full rack rate.

I don't mean low balling him. Just get him cheaper than otherwise would be the case. If he's asking for 800k to a 1 mil per season, right now he will probably accept 650-700. That's a win

 

[benbanjo]

It's amazing how when things aren't going well the solution is to trade players out. We will never get another Brown. If we were in the top and he had kicked 20-30 games this conversation wouldn't be happening. We need to clear out some players but these players are not in the top bracket and can easily be replaced.
Last year people wanted to trade out Goldy and Higgins. Imagine where we would be without Goldy and imagine where Geelong would be if they got him. I am all for improving our team but not other teams.

Where would we be? maybe 18th instead of 17th?

 

[7577969923]

It's amazing how when things aren't going well the solution is to trade players out. We will never get another Brown. If we were in the top and he had kicked 20-30 games this conversation wouldn't be happening. We need to clear out some players but these players are not in the top bracket and can easily be replaced.
Last year people wanted to trade out Goldy and Higgins. Imagine where we would be without Goldy and imagine where Geelong would be if they got him. I am all for improving our team but not other teams.

Without wanting this to be seen as an endorsement of trading BB, constructing trades where another club becomes better in the short term and the other benefits in the long term or where both clubs get better in the short term, by trading a second ruckman for a third key forward, for example, is the way it is supposed to work. If we had let Higgins & Goldy go to the Cats last year I would not begrudge either of them having a genuine crack at the flag this year on the proviso that we were sitting on 3 r 4 outstanding early draft picks as a result that would set us up for 2022 and beyond when Geelong is looking at a cliff.

 

[GarnerSmash]

I don't buy this strategy. By that logic we'll have to trade Higgins, Cunnington, Goldy, Polec, Ziebell and Tarrant as well as Brown.
And will be down the bottom for 3-5 years, and then there are no guarantees that the likes of LDU, Simpkin and TT will be keen to stick around to play in a losing side etc etc Not to mention about membership and other factors.

Well, no. The logic is that Brown is the only one of that lot with real currency. No one is going to trade a first for blokes the wrong side of 30 so its not worth it to us.

Maintaining a core of senior players will protect the younger guys while they develop and enable us to feed them exposure when ready. That's only another 2 or so seasons before they are likely all gone, by which point Jy, LDU, Thomas, Taylor, Larkey, Zuurhar, Perez, Comben, Scott, Walker +4-5 more first round picks will (hopefully) be in the ascendancy.

 

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Ben Brown

50

Ben Brown

Age

31

Ht

200cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.7

3star

K

7.7

3star

HB

3.0

3star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.2

3star

G

2.2

5star

D

7.9

2star

K

6.3

3star

HB

1.6

1star

M

3.7

4star

T

0.9

2star

G

1.0

4star

D

8.0

2star

K

4.6

2star

HB

3.4

3star

M

4.4

4star

T

1.4

4star

G

1.2

4star

 

[DuckYeah]

There’s no expectation on a 22 year old to dominate

No criticism on him would be taken seriously.

And you never know he might even thrive and do better immediately

troll,our ynder 22’s have shown real promise.. few more draft picks based on ladder position and decent drafting would be enough to compete with the best.. i mean, we belted carltank by 90 points last year.. knocked off quality teams..

This is what we need:

Clean crisp ball user off half back that can read play and intercept in the hole.

An outside mid who can kick and deliver the ball.

a solid attacking game plan.

without injuries and a ****ed up year we arent far off the pace.

no need to rid of the top 3 FF in the comp at 27. In a year where salary cap is going to be reduced.

with reduced salary caps, we may get what we need. Covid can be beneficial to us.

you thinking bottoming out for 3 or 4 years is the key to success.. I can assure you it isnt.. look at Carlton, 10 years of bottoming out has done nothing for them..

just a clueless troll.

Brisbane have been given priority pick after priority pick.. how many priority picks will we get? A big fat goose egg! Just rubbish from you.. every second or third post. You need to have a spell mate

 

[The Nostradamus]

Well, no. The logic is that Brown is the only one of that lot with real currency. No one is going to trade a first for blokes the wrong side of 30 so its not worth it to us.

Maintaining a core of senior players will protect the younger guys while they develop and enable us to feed them exposure when ready. That's only another 2 or so seasons before they are likely all gone, by which point Jy, LDU, Thomas, Taylor, Larkey, Zuurhar, Perez, Comben, Scott, Walker +4-5 more first round picks will (hopefully) be in the ascendancy.

This point is pertinent
Thank you for pointing this out to the posters who think we are advocating bottoming out

We aren’t suggesting trading multiple players out

We are suggesting trading 1 over 27 year old out
One that can get us a decent return back to make it worthwhile

And the only other one in that 27-30 age range would be cunners especially with his back or Polec but Polec probably only gets us an early second rounder

Hence brown makes the most sense, but the other 2 are options also

 

[DuckYeah]

Well, no. The logic is that Brown is the only one of that lot with real currency. No one is going to trade a first for blokes the wrong side of 30 so its not worth it to us.

Maintaining a core of senior players will protect the younger guys while they develop and enable us to feed them exposure when ready. That's only another 2 or so seasons before they are likely all gone, by which point Jy, LDU, Thomas, Taylor, Larkey, Zuurhar, Perez, Comben, Scott, Walker +4-5 more first round picks will (hopefully) be in the ascendancy.

Weve got two first rounders this year.. and in 2 more years we’ll have another 2.. the under 22’s are better than good.

 

[Le Grille]

And to add to this, it’s a where we are as a club thing

We are not challenging and to speed up the tilt to a flag you need to make ruthless decisions

anyone over 27 should be tradeable, you’d only trade out one that’s going to get you a first rounder though like Brown. As many mentioned you can’t go full Melbourne but getting rid of 1 isn’t an issue. There’s an argument for Cunners also as he might be a risk from a longevity standpoint with his back but yet still has value.

The thread which came up a few weeks ago focusing on these 2 as potential trades made sense.
And reiterated that it isn’t a form thing

The only form related talking point here is brown playing poorly which will affect the dollars of his next contract but isn’t related to trading him and him copping criticism but make no mistake trading him is seperate to this so justifying his form is pointless

But not for cents on the dollar, and even if we are rebuilding we still need to have a quality #1 kpf otherwise we run the risk of not developing that rebuild as well as we could


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