Autopsy Round 8, 2021: Gold Coast v St.Kilda

[BrutThough]

I didn’t say a bad word about Ben. He will be a star (if he isn’t already). I just think that Max is the superior talent (also their fathers words not just mine).

Haven't watched Ben play that much, but my impression is he does everything you would teach a key forward to do and does it very well.

Where as Max doesnt yet have those key forward basics down - the goal kicking needs work, needs to hold more marks, needs to lead more - but he has a huge bag of tricks that are just sublime and not like what any other key forward can do.

 

[KingsRansom]

"After holding the position of St Kilda’s midfield coach last season, Brendon Lade will take the mantle of Senior Assistant Coach (Forward line and Team Offence) from Brett Ratten moving into 2020."

2020 was last year, hes midfield coach in 2021...still senior assistant however

 

[gringo2011]

Agree with a lot of that and Max has only played 25 games but does drop a lot that he shouldn’t

bit harsh on Ben he will be a very bloody good player

Ben's already 4th in the Coleman race this year, Only Bruce, Walker and Harry McKay ahead of him. How the * Harry Mc Kay is leading the Coleman I don't know. He looked good today though, hope Max can start playing like that soon. Max looks mentally shaky in front of goals and Ben doesn't for some reason.

 

[gringo2011]

Haven't watched Ben play that much, but my impression is he does everything you would teach a key forward to do and does it very well.

Where as Max doesnt yet have those key forward basics down - the goal kicking needs work, needs to hold more marks, needs to lead more - but he has a huge bag of tricks that are just sublime and not like what any other key forward can do.

Gold Coast give Ben a lot more licence to roam the ground. During the telecast they mentioned that the speed of the kings is what sets them apart from other key forwards. Having ours sit still seems just insanely illogical considering that we really should be working to get maximum value out of him. We seem to be determined to play a style completely unsuited to the way footy's being played this year. I remember from seeing Max in his draft year package he got a lot of his goals playing like a tall Stephen Milne more than a pack crashing marking game. He should lead at the ball to get separation which is how he does mark away from the goal square. If I was him I'd ask for a trade to Gold Coast.

 

[Jade Buddha]

Gold Coast give Ben a lot more licence to roam the ground. During the telecast they mentioned that the speed of the kings is what sets them apart from other key forwards. Having ours sit still seems just insanely illogical considering that we really should be working to get maximum value out of him. We seem to be determined to play a style completely unsuited to the way footy's being played this year. I remember from seeing Max in his draft year package he got a lot of his goals playing like a tall Stephen Milne more than a pack crashing marking game. He should lead at the ball to get separation which is how he does mark away from the goal square. If I was him I'd ask for a trade to Gold Coast.

Roma is far more suited to the pack Mark physical style of play. He should be the number one banana we are looking for with our long bomb entries if anyone. King looks great on the move and covers the ground beautifully. That’s how he got the Winx nickname. No one is calling him brick outhouse.

 

[BrutThough]

Gold Coast give Ben a lot more licence to roam the ground. During the telecast they mentioned that the speed of the kings is what sets them apart from other key forwards. Having ours sit still seems just insanely illogical considering that we really should be working to get maximum value out of him. We seem to be determined to play a style completely unsuited to the way footy's being played this year. I remember from seeing Max in his draft year package he got a lot of his goals playing like a tall Stephen Milne more than a pack crashing marking game. He should lead at the ball to get separation which is how he does mark away from the goal square. If I was him I'd ask for a trade to Gold Coast.

I don't get the impression Ben roams that far at all. I can only remember seeing him out of their forward 50 maybe once for the entire game. Wouldnt say he gets up the ground or impact away from goal any more than Max does.

I also think you may be overstating the we are using him incorrectly. He has things to work on in his game and overall, our entire forward structure needs to function better. But if Max just converted the easy shots he has been missing the past few weeks, then his numbers are pretty similar to Ben's so it's not as if he isnt getting the same chances even with our current forward line issues. It's also a different comparison where Max is just one of 3-4 talls each week with us where as Ben is really Gold Coasts only forward so naturally we are going to set up our forward line differently than them.

 

[Brains Trust66]

Out is out.

I thought as much , bugger .

 

[Brains Trust66]

This was funny as. Gameday and I thought Ross had it in the bag. Talk about a jinx hahaha

It could only happen to me

 

[Brains Trust66]

I heard nothing about training so I assumed Ross was in for the 8th game in a row . I bought a bottle of champagne to celebrate, turned on the tv and they said his wife had had a baby and he wasn’t going to play . It could only happen to me . But at least I equalled my personal best which is something I guess .
Cone on Seb the next 8 games , you can do it .

 

[snails13]

Not sure if all you other posters are footy nerds like me and watch all the games each weekend,but having watched Carlton over the last few weeks,I don't think any of us should be claiming St.Kilda to have made the worst recruiting decisions when picking up Hill,Jones etc.
Zak Williams and Adam Saad have been absolute waste of money for the Blues in my opinion.

 

[austinnn]

Not sure if all you other posters are footy nerds like me and watch all the games each weekend,but having watched Carlton over the last few weeks,I don't think any of us should be claiming St.Kilda to have made the worst recruiting decisions when picking up Hill,Jones etc.
Zak Williams and Adam Saad have been absolute waste of money for the Blues in my opinion.

Joey Montagna laid into both trades in First Crack. Tom Morris and even David King shifted uncomfortably in their seats with the severity of Montagna's tirade.

 

[CaptainRisky]

I didn’t say a bad word about Ben. He will be a star (if he isn’t already). I just think that Max is the superior talent (also their fathers words not just mine).

Well their father is one s**t bloke saying that if he did

 

[Joffaboy]

Well their father is one sh*t bloke saying that if he did

Do you their father? If not you haven't got a clue or context in which it was said.

 

[bergholt]

But if Max just converted the easy shots he has been missing the past few weeks, then his numbers are pretty similar to Ben's so it's not as if he isnt getting the same chances even with our current forward line issues.

Yeah, Max has played one less game for 25 scoring shots (3.6 per game) while Ben has 31 (3.9 per game). Probably a couple of OOFs from Max make it even closer.

Him kicking 12.13 to Ben’s 23.8 is the only real difference at the moment.

 

[BrutThough]

Not sure if all you other posters are footy nerds like me and watch all the games each weekend,but having watched Carlton over the last few weeks,I don't think any of us should be claiming St.Kilda to have made the worst recruiting decisions when picking up Hill,Jones etc.
Zak Williams and Adam Saad have been absolute waste of money for the Blues in my opinion.

Why did people even put the Jones trade in that category as Hill and Hanners? He's be on an standard contract for a midfielder, we didnt give up much for him and he's played more good games than bad for us.

 

[gringo2011]

I don't get the impression Ben roams that far at all. I can only remember seeing him out of their forward 50 maybe once for the entire game. Wouldnt say he gets up the ground or impact away from goal any more than Max does.

I also think you may be overstating the we are using him incorrectly. He has things to work on in his game and overall, our entire forward structure needs to function better. But if Max just converted the easy shots he has been missing the past few weeks, then his numbers are pretty similar to Ben's so it's not as if he isnt getting the same chances even with our current forward line issues. It's also a different comparison where Max is just one of 3-4 talls each week with us where as Ben is really Gold Coasts only forward so naturally we are going to set up our forward line differently than them.

He didn't yesterday but I watch them when I get a chance, he's more of a lead up forward and he'll get marks 70 to 100 meters from goals and be the kick inside 50 or take shots from further out than Max does. He's very rarely standing still, most of his kicks on goal are generated through work rate leading at the ball, it also clears space behind him as the defenders go to him leaving huge holes behind him for other forwards to work in. We seem to want Max to shoot at close range to minimise his chances of missing or to let the ball fall out the back to our smalls. At the moment neither are happening enough.

The Suns must have tried something different yesterday because their forward line didn't fire at all and our defence actually looked easily the most competent line on the ground.

 

[gringo2011]

Not sure if all you other posters are footy nerds like me and watch all the games each weekend,but having watched Carlton over the last few weeks,I don't think any of us should be claiming St.Kilda to have made the worst recruiting decisions when picking up Hill,Jones etc.
Zak Williams and Adam Saad have been absolute waste of money for the Blues in my opinion.

Saad has been pretty good and Williams injuries haven't helped. It's not like the Mitch Mc Govern trade which is Bryce Gibbs like bad. I think they are paying Mc Gov about $900,000 a year to play reserves.

 

[gringo2011]

Why did people even put the Jones trade in that category as Hill and Hanners? He's be on an standard contract for a midfielder, we didnt give up much for him and he's played more good games than bad for us.

There was that point early in the year where his body had failed again and his form was down when he did play where it looked like Sydney had sold us another busted up old hack. He's been great since but his consistency and resilience are still potential negatives. Can't fauly=t his last three weeks though and he's changing opinions with every game.

I'm going to put it out there that Ratts is trying to polish up a turd with our list. I reckon we'd be winning more with a Hardwick style coach that plays attacking footy that embraces the ugly bits of our game. We want to play like peak Hawks but only about three of our players have the actual skills to be good at it. In the Goldy game, the WC game and even against the Hawks, when we get loose and free our skill level drops but our work rate increases and we look much more dangerous. When we try to play keepings off you watch chains of play waiting for the link to break every time.

Melbourne are doing it this year to great effect and so are the Dogs, frenetic fast paced footy with no handbrake is the new best practice. Sides like Collingwood and WC who were clean users and over possessors are less effective. Geelong are less slow the last few weeks too.

 

[Ads734]

People need to be patient with some of our younger players. nobody conntinuously performs as at a high standard yet questions are raised whenever Clark Coffield or Bytel have A

There was that point early in the year where his body had failed again and his form was down when he did play where it looked like Sydney had sold us another busted up old hack. He's been great since but his consistency and resilience are still potential negatives. Can't fauly=t his last three weeks though and he's changing opinions with every game.

I'm going to put it out there that Ratts is trying to polish up a turd with our list. I reckon we'd be winning more with a Hardwick style coach that plays attacking footy that embraces the ugly bits of our game. We want to play like peak Hawks but only about three of our players have the actual skills to be good at it. In the Goldy game, the WC game and even against the Hawks, when we get loose and free our skill level drops but our work rate increases and we look much more dangerous. When we try to play keepings off you watch chains of play waiting for the link to break every time.

Melbourne are doing it this year to great effect and so are the Dogs, frenetic fast paced footy with no handbrake is the new best practice. Sides like Collingwood and WC who were clean users and over possessors are less effective. Geelong are less slow the last few weeks too.

issue with Jones through out his career has been consistency. Plays a good block then falls back. I’ll wait to see how he goes over the next 4-6

 

[BrutThough]

He didn't yesterday but I watch them when I get a chance, he's more of a lead up forward and he'll get marks 70 to 100 meters from goals and be the kick inside 50 or take shots from further out than Max does. He's very rarely standing still, most of his kicks on goal are generated through work rate leading at the ball, it also clears space behind him as the defenders go to him leaving huge holes behind him for other forwards to work in. We seem to want Max to shoot at close range to minimise his chances of missing or to let the ball fall out the back to our smalls. At the moment neither are happening enough.

The Suns must have tried something different yesterday because their forward line didn't fire at all and our defence actually looked easily the most competent line on the ground.

Interestingly enough, their stats and their heat mates are close to identical. So even if the clubs are using them as differently as you say, they are still getting close to the same amount of possessions in similar areas each week. The only real difference is Ben's goal kicking is very accurate this year while Max keeps missing easy ones.

And funnily enough, the only game with a completely different heat map where Max stays completely inside 50 and every close to goal was the West Coast game which is the best game of his career so far.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Saad has been pretty good and Williams injuries haven't helped. It's not like the Mitch Mc Govern trade which is Bryce Gibbs like bad. I think they are paying Mc Gov about $900,000 a year to play reserves.

Saad was a stupid trade to get someone who is nothing more than a runing hbf.

At least Zac Jones looked (and is now proving) capable of stepping up to a midfield position.

Here's what Carlton could have got for virtually nothing to get tne same style of player.

Adam Saad and Nick Hind AFL Stats Comparison

Adam Saad and Nick Hind AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

 

[BrutThough]

There was that point early in the year where his body had failed again and his form was down when he did play where it looked like Sydney had sold us another busted up old hack. He's been great since but his consistency and resilience are still potential negatives. Can't fauly=t his last three weeks though and he's changing opinions with every game.

Probably suggests that there is no need to catastrophize a few weeks of bad form, especially when a player is returning from injury.

Jones was very good last year and has shown again this year how important he is to our midfield. In 3 of our 4 wins, he has been a major part of our midfield getting on top and turning the momentum our way.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Re Max and Ben.

Part of the issue may come from the impact on the development of tall forwards caused by the zoning provisions in underage comps.

They learn to play one out with very little intercept marking and no zone defence. So Max not helped by our game plan at a time when he is needing to relearn his forward craft as well.

Might have been a bit easierfor Ben to learn AFL patterns as he was primarily a defender.

 

[CaptainRisky]

Do you their father? If not you haven't got a clue or context in which it was said.

I don't need to know what context it was said in , you dont rank your children , simples

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I didn’t say a bad word about Ben. He will be a star (if he isn’t already). I just think that Max is the superior talent (also their fathers words not just mine).

There was that point early in the year where his body had failed again and his form was down when he did play where it looked like Sydney had sold us another busted up old hack. He's been great since but his consistency and resilience are still potential negatives. Can't fauly=t his last three weeks though and he's changing opinions with every game.

I'm going to put it out there that Ratts is trying to polish up a turd with our list. I reckon we'd be winning more with a Hardwick style coach that plays attacking footy that embraces the ugly bits of our game. We want to play like peak Hawks but only about three of our players have the actual skills to be good at it. In the Goldy game, the WC game and even against the Hawks, when we get loose and free our skill level drops but our work rate increases and we look much more dangerous. When we try to play keepings off you watch chains of play waiting for the link to break every time.

Melbourne are doing it this year to great effect and so are the Dogs, frenetic fast paced footy with no handbrake is the new best practice. Sides like Collingwood and WC who were clean users and over possessors are less effective. Geelong are less slow the last few weeks too.

Wasn't that Richo's 2108 game?