Preview Round 11, 2021: St.Kilda v North Melbourne - Marvel Stadium, Saturday 29th May, 4:35PM AEST *ROSS 150TH* *CLAVARINO DEBUT*

[Pardon me]

The main job of a small forward is to score and to apply pressure.

Butler - even if he is kicking behinds - is getting shots on goals and is getting better tackle/pressure numbers than Lonie.

Realistically, both could have been dropped but there was no one to bring in to replace them.

But Lonie isn't hard done by being omitted after kicking 1 behind in 3 games.

Look, I'm one of Lonie's biggest supporters but even I can see it wasnt really a contest with the 3 smalls to get dropped, and to be honest, when Gresh comes back I hope he goes to a permanent small forward with a few runs through the guts role and replaces Lonie. My young bloke will be shattered but honestly it's best for the team balance imo.

 

[phantom13]

I hope you’re not suggesting that Bytel is a 2 way onballer. That’s the biggest issue with him right now, he’s so one dimensional.

His tackle count would suggest he can absolutely defend and hes about as attacking as an inside mid can be really, short of Clayton Oliver who is absolutely elite.

Im not suggesting hes above being dropped but he gets marked way harder than 3/4s of our list and if i was him id be pretty pissed off with it.

Its probably more a statement about how irrational our selection seems to be than just a "dont drop Bytel" comment.

 

[CaptainRisky]

Boy oh boy , one day into lockdown and some have gone nuts already , thank god i have work to do so i dont have to read all the back handers being given out

 

[LiterallyNobody]

I go for Geelong, but watch and just enjoy footy, I always think youth is better than bringing in too much experience, I was dead against us getting smith and Higgins.

You know instead of getting Crouch, Higgins, wood and McKernan and Frawley, you could have slotted Clark into the midfield, kept hind at half back, got more games into bytel, kept marsh, who looked better than wood, and had more of a draft hand, I reckon you would be in a far better place with your list, now it looks like you will need to have a mass dump at the end of the year, where the garbage about being primed to assault for the 2022 flag will be shown and there's the real possibility you will be bottom 4 next year.
Gone at the end of the year to retire could be
Frawley
Carlisle
McKernan
Hunter
Wood
Geary
Ryder?
Hanneberry?

Then will you delist
Lonie
Dunstan
Long
Kent
Webster?
McKenzie

That's a large chunk if 80% Of the above list go, how can you be building to 2022, does leathlan think we are stupid?

Okay, first of all, no offence but some of your posting in this thread indicates how little you know about our team and with comments like this (bolded above) you are coming across as a bit of a troll. Apologies if my previous posts came across as a little rude.

I think everyone you mentioned in the retirement section goes except Ryder. Can see him sticking around another year in although wouldn’t blame him if he did just retire. Hanners may stick around although at this point I think most of us just assume he isn’t even on our list - sort of like Paddy McCartin or Dylan Roberton the last couple of years.

But you have to get this Crouch stuff out of your head though and that we shouldn’t have gotten him.
Let me tell you WHY we got him:Crouch is a ball pig which we do not have. We had many inside mids yes but quality mids who could get the ball and fish out to our outside runners? No. We had very little of them.

Steele is a tagger turned big bodied midfielder - our Patrick Cripps if you will but without someone else to go in and get the ball he’s on a hiding to nothing. He needed help and Crouch has really helped release Steele more;

Dunstan and Ross can be ball butcherers at the best of times and they used to be our best mids (that’s how bad our midfield was) - don’t be fooled by Dunstan getting a mountain of it in the twos - he is useless as Bull **** when he gets in the real stuff. Ross is a much maligned player who has a tendency to turn the ball over because he rushes his kicks.
Bytel had played three games going into this year, Byrnes one and looked like a deer in headlights.
Sinclair was playing as an inside mid (gross) and Hill was coming off one of his statistically worst seasons.
Clark couldn’t be relied to move into the midfield because of Paton’s injury. He’s moved into the midfield a bit but we needed to ensure stability with defence before doing so.

We got rid of Marsh because he barely did anything when he got his chance. You say he looked better than Wood and has more of a draft hand. I say it’s about six of one, half dozen of another. Hind was played out of position and our plethora of small forwards put him about eighth in line. Also I feel like we got screwed on him because he was such a late deal. So we just panicked, parted our butt cheeks, gave Dildoro the lube and said “here you go” plus his value based on output so far had been pretty rubbish so he wasn’t worth much anyway.

Higgins is only 22. Plenty of time for him to develop and he doesn’t deserve to be lumped in with the others you mentioned.

However Macca, Hunter and Frawley I can’t argue with. I will say this though - Macca and Hunter were chosen to be back up rucks. Hunter was chosen late due to Marshall’s injury and then Paddy had his mental health break which totally agreed our ruck setup. Neither were chosen as “top ups for a flag” - don’t listen to the media and their contrived narrative. It’s bullshit. Also both cost nothing. I feel like Frawley was only picked because of the doubts on Carlisle due to his back. All three are fails no doubt. But all three cost **** all so it’s not that detrimental.

As for who we delist - again I think you’re right with a number of them - cannot see Dunstan, Long, Kent or McKenzie being offered another contract and Lonie I’m unsure about. But in the absence of Paton (a criminally underrated player by anyone not involved with St Kilda) Webster is very valuable to us and has actually been quite handy for us this year. I think he’s worth keeping around as he’s probably the best replacement for Paton we have going around atm.

I think that the things we need to work on are all fixable. Think there is as much mental as it is anything else. If we drop all those players we still have an excellent core:Steele, Clark, Coffield, Paton, Marshall, King, Higgins, Bytel, Byrnes, Highmore, Joyce, Wilkie, Howard, Membrey and Jones, Butler, Hill, Crouch and Webster are still going to be there too.

More important for us at the moment is getting quality depth especially in the midfield. Things to work on yes but it ain’t all doom and gloom at St Kilda. (And I’m one of the two Doomsday Twins so I should know more than most)

 

[phantom13]

He missed in round 3 , apart from that has played every game since , do agree others are looked after but hardly enough to make Jack want to look elsewhere as unless he want to go to north not sure he would get a run at many clubs just yet

Someone around these parts showed a comparison on output between Bytel and Bailey Smith. It was remarkably similar with the exception that Smith has rarely (if ever?) been dropped.

Id suggest a few clubs would happily take him besides North, North would likely just be able to pay him overs and give him pretty much assured games,

 

[Hubnester]

If we could refrain from the personal attacks and petty little arguments that would be great.
The real world is stressful for some at the moment so let's try not to ruin one place people have to escape to, yeah?

On to the game, very excited for Clav to finally get a run. We really need someone like him to come on so I hope he goes well and can show he belongs at the top level. I did expect to see Connolly as well but with a few forced changes, that might be doing too much - happy enough with the team we'll be running out with and hopefully a few have a point to prove. If Dunstan can bring some of his VFL form along with him that would be fantastic.

 

[borderbarry]

I would like to see a comparison of output between Bytel and Ryan Byrnes, for this year.

 

[CaptainRisky]

I would like to see a comparison of output between Bytel and Ryan Byrnes, for this year.

My boy Byrnes has him covered

Jack Bytel and Ryan Byrnes AFL Stats Comparison

Jack Bytel and Ryan Byrnes AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

 

[CaptainRisky]

Someone around these parts showed a comparison on output between Bytel and Bailey Smith. It was remarkably similar with the exception that Smith has rarely (if ever?) been dropped.

Id suggest a few clubs would happily take him besides North, North would likely just be able to pay him overs and give him pretty much assured games,

Id suggest who ever is giving you info has no clue sorry

Jack Bytel and Bailey Smith AFL Stats Comparison

Jack Bytel and Bailey Smith AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

 

[The_Steadier]

But you said our game plan had completely changed a month or so ago and we’d adjusted to the new rules.

We've stopped bombing it long (and are now looking to pass to teammates) for sure. That's the gameplan when we HAVE the ball- that has changed.

What hasn't changed is the positioning and mindset the players are being put in when we DON'T have the ball.

The blowout losses to me are clearly a result of us going full attacking mindset all game, everygame.
Looks good when it works, but leaves us wide open to be heavily scored against.

That needs to change

 

[lewdogs]

Id suggest who ever is giving you info has no clue sorry

Jack Bytel and Bailey Smith AFL Stats Comparison

Jack Bytel and Bailey Smith AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

OK that's fine but what about the comparison between their first two games??

 

[plugger66]

OK that's fine but what about the comparison between their first two games??

Haha. I did the first season of smith and bytel career and there is still a reasonable gap and fair enough one is a star the other unproven

 

[lewdogs]

Haha. I did the first season of smith and bytel career and there is still a reasonable gap and fair enough one is a star the other unproven

I've still got a lot of faith in Bytel. Smith has probably had the most instant impact of any recent mid, so he's a tough comparison.

It's such a shame there's no VFL footy this weekend because it would be great for Bytel to have a run there.

I really like Bytel with ball in hand but his issue at the moment is not getting enough of it.

 

[plugger66]

I've still got a lot of faith in Bytel. Smith has probably had the most instant impact of any recent mid, so he's a tough comparison.

It's such a shame there's no VFL footy this weekend because it would be great for Bytel to have a run there.

I really like Bytel with ball in hand but his issue at the moment is not getting enough of it.

I think he will be good as well. Like you I’d love to see him get a run at sandy and get real confidence. Of course covid hits.

 

[phantom13]

Id suggest who ever is giving you info has no clue sorry

Jack Bytel and Bailey Smith AFL Stats Comparison

Jack Bytel and Bailey Smith AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

... Obviously career outputs isnt going to stack up, it was a suggestion about their first 10 games from memory, given Bytel has now played 12...

Smith first 12 games disposal tally

8, 13, 22, 13, 18, 23, 22, 10, 28, 21, 16

Average 16.6

Bytel first 12 games disposal tally

18, 13 8, 13, 6*, 19, 10, 6*, 21, 15, 16, 12

Average 13.3

I think the 2 x 6 disposal games were sub games if you take those out he averages 14.5. Also Smiths first 12 games were in 2019 with full games, Bytels were in 2020 with shortened quarters if you factor that in its even closer (lets say 20% increase so roughly 16 disposal vs 16.6).

Now obviously Bailey Smith does alot of things Jack doesnt but Smith also goes on from those 12 games to start being the Bailey Smith we now know, he also never got dropped, he was supported and allowed to grow through those quiet games, Bytel hasnt. Smith had quiet games in 2019 (back to back to back 16, 13 and 11 touch games) and wasnt dropped, would Bytel get that sort of leniency?

This is the broader point about development and the fact that we really do seem awful at it.

 

[Moorabbin Ghost]

His tackle count would suggest he can absolutely defend and hes about as attacking as an inside mid can be really, short of Clayton Oliver who is absolutely elite.

Im not suggesting hes above being dropped but he gets marked way harder than 3/4s of our list and if i was him id be pretty pissed off with it.

Fair enough but if Bytel was finding the ball in general play then he would still be playing. Being great inside is a good trait but an inability to find the footy at any other time is a critical flaw in his game right now.

Its probably more a statement about how irrational our selection seems to be than just a "dont drop Bytel" comment.

 

[Saintbloke]

I've still got a lot of faith in Bytel. Smith has probably had the most instant impact of any recent mid, so he's a tough comparison.

It's such a shame there's no VFL footy this weekend because it would be great for Bytel to have a run there.

I really like Bytel with ball in hand but his issue at the moment is not getting enough of it.

Like most of our team- getting a bit of the ball, but not enough

 

[plugger66]

... Obviously career outputs isnt going to stack up, it was a suggestion about their first 10 games from memory, given Bytel has now played 12...

Smith first 12 games disposal tally

8, 13, 22, 13, 18, 23, 22, 10, 28, 21, 16

Average 16.6

Bytel first 12 games disposal tally

18, 13 8, 13, 6*, 19, 10, 6*, 21, 15, 16, 12

Average 13.3

I think the 2 x 6 disposal games were sub games if you take those out he averages 14.5. Also Smiths first 12 games were in 2019 with full games, Bytels were in 2020 with shortened quarters if you factor that in its even closer (lets say 20% increase so roughly 16 disposal vs 16.6).

Now obviously Bailey Smith does alot of things Jack doesnt but Smith also goes on from those 12 games to start being the Bailey Smith we now know, he also never got dropped, he was supported and allowed to grow through those quiet games, Bytel hasnt. Smith had quiet games in 2019 (back to back to back 16, 13 and 11 touch games) and wasnt dropped, would Bytel get that sort of leniency?

This is the broader point about development and the fact that we really do seem awful at it.

Smith played elsewhere apart from as a mid. I’m sure if bytel could he also would be given more chances. As a supporter I don’t want an inside mid only touching it 12 times and with dunstan coming in which was deserved there was little choice this week. Unfortunately sandy aren’t playing now which is no good.

 

[Remboy]

Hard to get a good read on this game given we’ve got a couple in that I don‘t know much about and I know even less about the Roos.
Taking that into account I’m tipping the Saints by 147 points.

 

[Minga]

Didn’t someone on here also say a while back that Bytel’s 12 disposals were on 58% game time against the dogs? If that’s the case, that ain’t too shabby for a young inside mid who enjoys are a hard ball get and a tackle. Very happy with how Byrnes is tracking, hope he backs it up against North.

Update: just checked the AFL app and yes 58% TOG, our lowest not counting medical sub. I know people will say he’s being managed or he can’t play elsewhere on the ground, but there’s more positives there then some are suggesting re: bytel.

 

[Saints43]

All very good points and hard to argue with, you make a lot of sense.
BUT Crouch has been very good for us very glad we have him
And yes Lethlean is a Fraud our list management is all over the joint

How is our list management all over the joint?
We have a pretty good starting 18 (if fit) which we haven't been able to say for a decade. And that's been sorted out in about two seasons.
Depth will take longer to develop. And the way the list falls away shows what a shitshow it had been previous to his arrival.
The depth players, who will be delisted at the end of the season, were brought in to cover in the event of massive injuries. And guess what we've had? And that's why we've seen more of them than anyone would have hoped.

 

[Mowman]

Didn’t someone on here also say a while back that Bytel’s 12 disposals were on 58% game time against the dogs? If that’s the case, that ain’t too shabby for a young inside mid who enjoys are a hard ball get and a tackle. Very happy with how Byrnes is tracking, hope he backs it up against North.

Update: just checked the AFL app and yes 58% TOG, our lowest not counting medical sub. I know people will say he’s being managed or he can’t play elsewhere on the ground, but there’s more positives there then some are suggesting re: bytel.

Why can’t he play elsewhere?
be good for him to add something different

 

[t_94]

You sound it. Just work It will make you feel better

Does acting like you are the smartest person on bigfooty help you?

 

[Saints43]

I hope you’re not suggesting that Bytel is a 2 way onballer. That’s the biggest issue with him right now, he’s so one dimensional.

What the **** would you know?
Before the Footscray game you and one of your mates were piling into me when I said Lonie isn't a hard worker.
4 goals in 9 games and barely any tackles later he's out of the team.
Why don't you just present your opinions and leave the 'I hope you're not suggesting' and 'you've obviously never seen him play' stuff out.

 

[Ducky Tie]

Didn’t someone on here also say a while back that Bytel’s 12 disposals were on 58% game time against the dogs? If that’s the case, that ain’t too shabby for a young inside mid who enjoys are a hard ball get and a tackle. Very happy with how Byrnes is tracking, hope he backs it up against North.

Update: just checked the AFL app and yes 58% TOG, our lowest not counting medical sub. I know people will say he’s being managed or he can’t play elsewhere on the ground, but there’s more positives there then some are suggesting re: bytel.

I reckon most are pretty optimistic about Bytel's future, it's just a matter of how we develop him the best and whether you can have a regular inside mid getting not much footy each week. I think it will help Bytel's development to play a few games in the VFL and get in the habit of having 25-30 touches in a game.