Society/Culture Are men being discriminated against in the workplace?

[Seeds]

A team of 22 buddy’s would win the premiership every year.

 

[the_interloper]

think of it like selecting a football team. Do you select 22 Buddy Franklins or do you select the best team.

Organisations are about achieving objectives and if they feel better outcomes will be achieved by shaking up the team, then they should pursue it. If they feel stability is a better pathway then they should pursue it.

if talented people think they are worth more or better opportunities elsewhere, they should pursue them.



what women bring to the table is normalise behaviour of men compared to men's behaviour in an all boys setting.

Well firstly you're assuming that, I've worked with some women who are as rough around the edges as some of the blokes, particularly in a construction setting.

Also I think women have more to bring to the table than this, some of them are even qualified and have experience relevant to the role!

 

[Power Raid]

Well firstly you're assuming that, I've worked with some women who are as rough around the edges as some of the blokes, particularly in a construction setting.

Also I think women have more to bring to the table than this, some of them are even qualified and have experience relevant to the role!

That’s great but it wasn’t the situation being put forward.

But yes I agree

 

[Seeds]

My time in the military was like a Mad Monday that went on for 7 years.

Guys would party until 6am and turn up to work drunk.

The bar would open on the base at 10.15 for a pint, at lunch for two pints and 2pm for a pint. Guys would then drink after work at the pub, then buy a case a beer for home where they'd drink 3/4 of the case that evening, 4 or five beers would be drunk in the morning before work and the 6th beer drunk warm for the drive from the base to the pub.

Guys would have a wank whilst on the helm steering the ship at night and blow their load on the chux used to clear the course. Those amazing enough would suck themselves of on the bridge whilst on the sounders. The look out had so much come on it, it looked like a flock of seagulls had had a field day. Any jacket (pockets) or anti-flash left around would be crusty with cum.

We've seen recently in the SAS how executions are normal and hearing stories of those that served in Vietnam of executing civilians including grandmas and children.


Then suddenly women are introduced to the place of work, usually representing 1-10% initially and the ships company becomes even more dysfunctional. Then as the ratio heads towards 50-50, then the behaviour and culture normalises to something more akin to acceptable.


I've witnessed the same on mine sites. Finance is slightly different as the behaviour changes relate more to legal compliance, better risk management and better communication.

You don’t need 50 percent women to clean up that s**t.

you don’t need women at all in fact.

plus none of this is about workplace performance. It’s just about misbehaviour.

 

[Power Raid]

You don’t need 50 percent women to clean up that sh*t.

you don’t need women at all in fact.

plus none of this is about workplace performance. It’s just about misbehaviour.

behaviour is a symptom of culture. The military worked very hard over centuries to build a strong culture where dysfunctional behaviour was a product by design. The examples I gave where negative behaviours but the ultimate goal was to design a culture where military culture works together without question to achieve an objective that would likely result in death for all concerned.

Who in their normal right mind would leap over a trench, at the sound of a whistle, with a rifle but no bullets with the ambition of running across a field with machine gun fire? With the objective of leaping into another ditch and bayoneting the enemy until your death.

Or running towards machine gun fire and tanks in a group of ten, with one rifle. As the man leading the charge, with the rifle is gunned down, one of the other ten unarmed men picks up the rifle.

The answer is, you can't train that behaviour but you can train that culture that delivers that behaviour. The stronger the culture the greater the impact it has on behaviour be it positive or negative.


Normalising the work environment to reflect society is the easiest and cheapest way to make change in strong dysfunctional cultures, as management now has law, media and "shame" on their side. Military, prisons, finance, politics and mining could all benefit from using "normalisation" as the reasons and need for strong culture are no longer there. How to achieve this??????????? women. The cultures in these organisations won't stand up if "mums" and "sisters" and "daughters" are in the workplace........."shame".



Please refer above the process of mission, vision and values is set by the team. The board and management then adopt these and align the strategy to the MVV. Management align the remuneration packages (short term and long term incentive plans) to the MVV by setting KPIs. The ST incentive plans reflect 25% bonus and the LT up to 100% bonus..................so the team can more than double their wage or find themselves on the outer with a base wage.

These STs and LTs are not just individual rewards motivating an individuals behaviour but more importantly aligned to team outcomes. This the teams culture and "acceptance" or "rejecting" individuals in the team is a powerful driver, as we all want to be accepted.


In mining safety, social licence, environment, time, budget and deliverables are key KPIs. We rarely see safety incidents, we've won awards for stopping terrorism and kidnappings/ creating peace in conflict areas, we've won awards environment including changing how the environment department operated, we've delivered 37% return per annum since 1997 with the worst return being 33%. None of these would have been achieved if not for culture.

 

[Hoops]

Lol accidental Spoonerism.

"even furthering discrimination".

The cohort of employees from the "traditional" gender have a more competitive environment so keep getting better, whilst the other gender doesn't have that pressure.

Over time, a perception that one gender is better at the job than the other could well be formed, because of this imbalance in competition.

It's more a hypothesis than anything, I don't know of any examples.


BTW there are examples where actions are taken to include men in female dominated workplaces. I know a guy who was asked to be on an interview panel (even though his link to that group was a bit tenuous) because HR said they needed a man on the panel.

Also a mate who is a Primary School teacher says it's easy for him to get a job because without saying it schools want some male teachers. Again, it's just an anecdote though.

definitely true about male primary school teachers.

 

[Carringbush2010]

A team of 22 buddy’s would win the premiership every year.

Umm no, no it wouldn't, it would be lucky to win a game.

 

[the_interloper]

behaviour is a symptom of culture. The military worked very hard over centuries to build a strong culture where dysfunctional behaviour was a product by design. The examples I gave where negative behaviours but the ultimate goal was to design a culture where military culture works together without question to achieve an objective that would likely result in death for all concerned.

Who in their normal right mind would leap over a trench, at the sound of a whistle, with a rifle but no bullets with the ambition of running across a field with machine gun fire. With the objective of leaping into another ditch and bayoneting the enemy until your death?

Or running towards machine gun fire and tanks in a group of ten, with one rifle. As the man leading the charge, with the rifle is gunned down, one of the other ten unarmed men picks up the rifle.

The answer is, you can't train that behaviour but you can train that culture that delivers that behaviour. The stronger the culture the greater the impact management has on behaviour be it positive or negative.


Normalising the work environment to reflect society is the easiest and cheapest way to make change in strong dysfunctional cultures, as management now has law, media and "shame" on their side. Military, prisons, finance, politics and mining could all benefit from using "normalisation" as the reasons and need for strong culture are no longer there. How to achieve this??????????? women. The cultures in these organisations won't stand up if "mums" and "sisters" and "daughters" are in the workplace........."shame".



Please refer above the process of mission, vision and values is set by the team. The board and management then adopt these and align the strategy to the MVV. Management align the remuneration packages (short term and long term incentive plans) to the MVV by setting KPIs. The ST incentive plans reflect 25% bonus and the LT up to 100% bonus..................so the team can more than double their wage or find themselves on the outer with a base wage.

These STs and LTs are not just individual rewards motivating an individuals behaviour but more importantly aligned to team outcomes. This the teams culture and "acceptance" or "rejecting" individuals in the team is a powerful driver, as we all want to be accepted.


In mining safety, social licence, environment, time, budget and deliverables are key KPIs. We rarely see safety incidents, we've won awards for stopping terrorism and kidnappings/ creating peace in conflict areas, we've won awards environment including changing how the environment department operated, we've delivered 37% return per annum since 1997 with the worst return being 33%. None of these would have been achieved if not for culture.

This is an excellent post honestly and I agree with most of it. The one main part I don't is the assumption that more women, 50/50 men/women or whatever metric you set automatically gives you a better culture, but I feel like this is something we won't agree on.

definitely true about male primary school teachers.

I was away with some of my (prep) son's friends parents a while back, school came up and the only teacher they crapped on about was the male sport teacher, the kids were the same. Not sure if it because he did sport but there's something about having a male there for young kids that they really respond to.

This is hard for me to get my head around, I'm very much best person for the job, but it feels like men are very sought after in the primary education system. It's probably cause there's not many of them, it's similar to women in STEM fields, everyone wants them at their company but generally speaking they aren't attracted to the field overall.

 

[Number37]

definitely true about male primary school teachers.

Not just primary school, but high school.
Especially if you want to teach maths, there is a dire shortage all around the country.

 

[Seeds]

Umm no, no it wouldn't, it would be lucky to win a game.

When he is injured yes.

but when at the peak of his game they would smash every side. The only position he would lose was hit outs. Murder every team in the middle and foward line would just be crazy. Buddy would be fine I ndefence too if he played there regularly. Has thé pace and height to go with most.

 

[Carringbush2010]

When he is injured yes.

but when at the peak of his game they would smash every side. The only position he would lose was hit outs. Murder every team in the middle and foward line would just be crazy. Buddy would be fine I ndefence too if he played there regularly. Has thé pace and height to go with most.

Murder every team in the middle, wow, not sure if serious. How'd ya reckon they'd go as a defender on the likes of Noughton, JK, Darling, King Bros.? (He's not a noted contested mark btw) Or as a winger like a Gaff? What about a bull mids like a Crippa, Cunnington, Adams? How about all day two way runners like Fyfe, Boak, reckon he's got the tank to clock up 15 clicks a game?

You're talking about a superhuman utility, doesn't exist.

Or are you discriminating against non Buddy's?

 

[Fadge]

Murder every team in the middle, wow, not sure if serious. How'd ya reckon they'd go as a defender on the likes of Noughton, JK, Darling, King Bros.? (He's not a noted contested mark btw) Or as a winger like a Gaff? What about a bull mids like a Crippa, Cunnington, Adams? How about all day two way runners like Fyfe, Boak, reckon he's got the tank to clock up 15 clicks a game?

You're talking about a superhuman utility, doesn't exist.

Or are you discriminating against non Buddy's?

Do you realise you're cherry picking the elite players in specific positions across the competition?

How would Buddy go against the 8th to 22nd listed player in each team? In any position.

It is a rhetorical question, no need to answer that one...

I'm on Team Buddy.

 

[the_interloper]

Do you realise you're cherry picking the elite players in specific positions across the competition?

How would Buddy go against the 8th to 22nd listed player in each team? In any position.

It is a rhetorical question, no need to answer that one...

I'm on Team Buddy.

I would be too FWIW, I mean it counts as one of the silliest arguments I've been involved in on the SRP board (and there's been some ******* stupid ones)

 

[Carringbush2010]

Do you realise you're cherry picking the elite players in specific positions across the competition?

How would Buddy go against the 8th to 22nd listed player in each team? In any position.

It is a rhetorical question, no need to answer that one...

I'm on Team Buddy.

We are going off thread here, but I will point out you're using an elite player - in his position - so I'll use elite players in their position of course. Or would you prefer I use cat b rookies to prove your point?

 

[Seeds]

Murder every team in the middle, wow, not sure if serious. How'd ya reckon they'd go as a defender on the likes of Noughton, JK, Darling, King Bros.? (He's not a noted contested mark btw) Or as a winger like a Gaff? What about a bull mids like a Crippa, Cunnington, Adams? How about all day two way runners like Fyfe, Boak, reckon he's got the tank to clock up 15 clicks a game?

You're talking about a superhuman utility, doesn't exist.

Or are you discriminating against non Buddy's?

I’m not saying 22 buddys would beat the all Australian team. Im saying he would beat every team in the league easily. There are a lot of s**t players in each team.

 

[Scotland]

I was away with some of my (prep) son's friends parents a while back, school came up and the only teacher they crapped on about was the male sport teacher, the kids were the same. Not sure if it because he did sport but there's something about having a male there for young kids that they really respond to.

This is hard for me to get my head around, I'm very much best person for the job, but it feels like men are very sought after in the primary education system. It's probably cause there's not many of them, it's similar to women in STEM fields, everyone wants them at their company but generally speaking they aren't attracted to the field overall.

Kids aren't developed. The school environment is part of that development. Interacting with male and female authority figures (teachers) is part of that.

As a society we've become preoccupied with counting female CEOs and making sure the latest footy commercial has Tayla Harris in it for little girls to look up to but girls and boys interact with women and men on a daily basis in schools during their formative years and that profession being dominated by women apparently isn't an issue.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I’m not saying 22 buddys would beat the all Australian team. Im saying he would be e eye team in the league easily. There are a lot of sh*t players in each team.

You did state this:

A team of 22 buddy’s would win the premiership every year.

I rebutted saying it would be lucky to win a game, which it would be considering Buddy as good as he is would get slaughtered in other positions on the park - as I've alluded to in other posts.

So for the purposes of staying on thread, I'll remark that you're discriminating against men in their workplace lol.

 

[Minka Beaver]

Kids aren't developed. The school environment is part of that development. Interacting with male and female authority figures (teachers) is part of that.

As a society we've become preoccupied with counting female CEOs and making sure the latest footy commercial has Tayla Harris in it for little girls to look up to but girls and boys interact with women and men on a daily basis in schools during their formative years and that profession being dominated by women apparently isn't an issue.

It's impossible to attract more men into teaching without paying better salaries. The same situation applies to childcare.

 

[the_interloper]

Kids aren't developed. The school environment is part of that development. Interacting with male and female authority figures (teachers) is part of that.

As a society we've become preoccupied with counting female CEOs and making sure the latest footy commercial has Tayla Harris in it for little girls to look up to but girls and boys interact with women and men on a daily basis in schools during their formative years and that profession being dominated by women apparently isn't an issue.

Personally I don't mind if there are a lot of women teaching at primary schools, it just depends what they're teaching them and how they are doing so. Feels like primary schools tailor education more towards girls rather than boys, girls seem to have the ability to sit still and listen a bit more, near impossible for a 5 year old boy to do so for more than 10 seconds I reckon.

Plus honestly my young bloke (6) will have enough male role model figures in his life for me to worry about only having female teachers.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I’m not saying 22 buddys would beat the all Australian team. Im saying he would beat every team in the league easily. There are a lot of sh*t players in each team.

Yeah I'm disputing they'd be lucky to win a game, a team of elite forwards only will cause serious imbalance to any team and is doomed to fail.

Perplexed how you can't see that. Anyways off thread I'll leave it there.

 

[Fadge]

Where gender equality in elite Australian sport needs to get better

Analysis of major Australian sporting organisations and some AFL clubs shows many boards had a greater gender balance in the 2019-20 financial year compared to the previous one.

www.theage.com.au

Interesting Article. I particularly like this section:

Tennis Australia is one of the better performing organisations when it comes to these measures, but chief executive Craig Tiley still wants to improve his sport in this area.

He says one reason for that is because such roles usually need people who can travel, and traditionally men have been more available to do this. Organisations need to make it easier for women to carry out these roles, Tiley said.

“We don’t have enough [women coaches], and nearly every sport doesn’t have enough. Do you create ‘buddy coaching’ systems where you have two coaches?” Tiley said.

“And you have got to improve pay. There should be no excuse for pay equity [in coaching].

 

[the_interloper]

Where gender equality in elite Australian sport needs to get better

Analysis of major Australian sporting organisations and some AFL clubs shows many boards had a greater gender balance in the 2019-20 financial year compared to the previous one.

www.theage.com.au

Interesting Article. I particularly like this section:

Tennis Australia is one of the better performing organisations when it comes to these measures, but chief executive Craig Tiley still wants to improve his sport in this area.

He says one reason for that is because such roles usually need people who can travel, and traditionally men have been more available to do this. Organisations need to make it easier for women to carry out these roles, Tiley said.

“We don’t have enough [women coaches], and nearly every sport doesn’t have enough. Do you create ‘buddy coaching’ systems where you have two coaches?” Tiley said.

“And you have got to improve pay. There should be no excuse for pay equity [in coaching].

Generally speaking I approve of measures taken to remove barriers for women to pursuing careers. Though many of these cost more money than not doing anything, that would be the issue.

I don't support measuring this success via measuring gender ratio outcomes, let's concentrate on remove barriers and let free choice take over from there.

 

[sdfc]

When he is injured yes.

but when at the peak of his game they would smash every side. The only position he would lose was hit outs. Murder every team in the middle and foward line would just be crazy. Buddy would be fine I ndefence too if he played there regularly. Has thé pace and height to go with most.

Defence would be the big question but the Buddy team would just kick bigger scores.

 

[Deliverance]

My time in the military was like a Mad Monday that went on for 7 years.

Guys would party until 6am and turn up to work drunk.

The bar would open on the base at 10.15 for a pint, at lunch for two pints and 2pm for a pint. Guys would then drink after work at the pub, then buy a case a beer for home where they'd drink 3/4 of the case that evening, 4 or five beers would be drunk in the morning before work and the 6th beer drunk warm for the drive from the base to the pub.

Guys would have a wank whilst on the helm steering the ship at night and blow their load on the chux used to clear the course. Those amazing enough would suck themselves of on the bridge whilst on the sounders. The look out had so much come on it, it looked like a flock of seagulls had had a field day. Any jacket (pockets) or anti-flash left around would be crusty with cum.

We've seen recently in the SAS how executions are normal and hearing stories of those that served in Vietnam of executing civilians including grandmas and children.


Then suddenly women are introduced to the place of work, usually representing 1-10% initially and the ships company becomes even more dysfunctional. Then as the ratio heads towards 50-50, then the behaviour and culture normalises to something more akin to acceptable.


I've witnessed the same on mine sites. Finance is slightly different as the behaviour changes relate more to legal compliance, better risk management and better communication.

HMAS Swan?? My mate was on that one when he was younger.

 

[Power Raid]

HMAS Swan?? My mate was on that one when he was younger.

I only did a jolly run on Swan but never posted