Transgender

[ShanDog]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[radiojake]

Fantastic

and no other male or female MMA fighter has ever received equally brutal injuries ever

I dunno it may be just me but if you want to step into a ring and try to beat the s**t out of someone, I really don't care if you cop a beating yourself

 

[Gralin]

I'm just going to let you men continue to discuss what's good for women and our sport, I'm out, bringing poorline into it lol

Now what’s the next one though? We have now seen a first Pauline is seen as a positive!

Please tell me you didn't think that was Pauline Hanson

 

[Malifice]

Please tell me you didn't think that was Pauline Hanson

Gralin mate, it's already obvious, but is there some kind of middle ground for you where you can see a space to balance the need for a fair and equitable competition for cis gender female athletes (literally why we have split gender competitions in the first place) while also seeking (as far as possible) to be inclusive and non discriminatory to trans gender athletes?

 

[Pessimistic]

Sport isn't fair, they don't check the performance of everyone and make them compete based on that

Some do. And horse racing jumping etc is one sport where it’s males v females, horse and rider

 

[Pessimistic]

Is the point missed that sports manage themselves so the ‘fairness’ is not needed to be imposed by any government? (Scotty)

 

[Gralin]

Gralin mate, it's already obvious, but is there some kind of middle ground for you where you can see a space to balance the need for a fair and equitable competition for cis gender female athletes (literally why we have split gender competitions in the first place) while also seeking (as far as possible) to be inclusive and non discriminatory to trans gender athletes?

Yes.
But I'm not seeing it happening, I'm seeing people think exclusion is the answer.

Trans athletes literally can't win, if they're successful they are the poster child for segregation, the argument most are putting forward is its not fair to cis women which really breaks down to I don't think trans women are women.

I mean someone who considers themselves a lefty posted a photo of Caster Semenya as proof women shouldn't compete with trans women

Its a literal witch hunt currently. People that are generally left and progressive are eating up alt right memes and rw media outrage stories, the guardian in the UK has gone full TERF while staying left on most everything else.

Its kinda hard to have a sensible discussion when people see all the legislation getting passed, the forced destransitioning of teens, genital expections etc, All that stuff being done in the name of womens safety and fairness in sport as a separate problem, or often just not even of interest.

The interest seems to stop at anything that isn't trans women being removed from women's sport

 

[chopflop]

Yes.
But I'm not seeing it happening, I'm seeing people think exclusion is the answer.

Trans athletes literally can't win, if they're successful they are the poster child for segregation, the argument most are putting forward is its not fair to cis women which really breaks down to I don't think trans women are women.

I mean someone who considers themselves a lefty posted a photo of Caster Semenya as proof women shouldn't compete with trans women

Its a literal witch hunt currently. People that are generally left and progressive are eating up alt right memes and rw media outrage stories, the guardian in the UK has gone full TERF while staying left on most everything else.

Its kinda hard to have a sensible discussion when people see all the legislation getting passed, the forced destransitioning of teens, genital expections etc, All that stuff being done in the name of womens safety and fairness in sport as a separate problem, or often just not even of interest.

The interest seems to stop at anything that isn't trans women being removed from women's sport

Everyone I know on the left, the moderate left agree with the decision. The idea of terfism is essentially a rejection of a feminist claim that the female body has been and is interconnected with the marginalisation of women historically and in the present. The sexed body is central to much feminist theory. If you make that claim these days, it's 'terfdom' - I mean most moderate leftists (like myself) are all for inclusion but are not willing to say that sexed bodies are just social constructs - they just aren't.

 

[Punt rd end]

Yes.
But I'm not seeing it happening, I'm seeing people think exclusion is the answer.

Trans athletes literally can't win, if they're successful they are the poster child for segregation, the argument most are putting forward is its not fair to cis women which really breaks down to I don't think trans women are women.

I mean someone who considers themselves a lefty posted a photo of Caster Semenya as proof women shouldn't compete with trans women

Its a literal witch hunt currently. People that are generally left and progressive are eating up alt right memes and rw media outrage stories, the guardian in the UK has gone full TERF while staying left on most everything else.

Its kinda hard to have a sensible discussion when people see all the legislation getting passed, the forced destransitioning of teens, genital expections etc, All that stuff being done in the name of womens safety and fairness in sport as a separate problem, or often just not even of interest.

The interest seems to stop at anything that isn't trans women being removed from women's sport

You pick the one example that was inaccurate my bad to support your opinion but crickets on the others anyway have a nice day

 

[LukeParkerno1]

So what’s your solution? The only thing you want is for it to continue as it was. That is never going to happen nor is it fair for female athletes who have trained their life. They shouldn’t then have to go up against transgender athletes as well who decided a few years earlier to transition.

I’m all ears but give us a solution that isn’t keep going as it is. Has to be a middle ground and FINA have actually done that

 

[owen87]

So what’s your solution? The only thing you want is for it to continue as it was. That is never going to happen nor is it fair for female athletes who have trained their life. They shouldn’t then have to go up against transgender athletes as well who decided a few years earlier to transition.

I’m all ears but give us a solution that isn’t keep going as it is. Has to be a middle ground and FINA have actually done that

There doesn't 'have' to be a middle ground.

If his position is that he thinks it's most appropriate that trans-women compete in the women's category, then that's his position is it not?

 

[LukeParkerno1]

There doesn't 'have' to be a middle ground.

If his position is that he thinks it's most appropriate that trans-women compete in the women's category, then that's his position is it not?

Then I’m happy enough with FINA’s decision to create a separate category and thus protect the integrity of the sport.

 

[Malifice]

Yes.
But I'm not seeing it happening, I'm seeing people think exclusion is the answer.

Cis men are already excluded from Womens comps mate. We have that exclusion for a reason (men are biologically stronger than women, and at the elite level, that difference matters).

We're talking about sports here at the elite level where 1/100th of a second matters. We need to be fair to elite cis female athletes, while at the same time being as inclusive as possible to trans-women.

There is a growing body of scientific consensus, that trans-women may (and often do) have a competitive advantage over cis-female athletes, and I cant see any world where its fair to the cis-women to have a carte blanche approach that favors inclusiveness over competitive fairness (and the whole reasons we have gender segregated competitions in the first place).

We have to balance those two competing interests.

The competitive advantage doesnt apply to ALL trans-women, and things like early transitioning, hormone replacement and so forth can reduce or eliminate that competitive advantage to a great degree.

I think at the lower levels, its more just a question of self identity being the determining factor, but as one rises higher in the ranks to the elite level, the questions asked need to be more rigorous so as not to disadvantage the elite cis-women, and the standards clearly expressed so trans-female athletes know in advance what the pre-requisites for competition at that level are. All such decisions need to be guided by science, and not politics.

That's a far cry from fascism mate.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Watch out you will be called a bigot or transphobic

Well they would be hypocrites.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

So who should trans men have to compete against?

Logic says themselves.

 

[ShanDog]

Going by the real science that seems to be out there, if you measure and monitor things like testosterone levels and so on, a number of years after transitioning the real benefit of male puberty is lost.

As I have pointed out previously, and was also discussed quite clearly in the FINA announcement, the most recent research says the opposite.

I think FINA's ruling makes sense. Elite level competition should exclude transwomen who went through puberty before transitioning. At lower levels (i.e. community sport) it is far less of an issue. Looks like other major sporting bodies are going to conduct similar reviews and I think they will likely amend their rules too. Good.

Now, should anyone be tempted to reply to this and suggest that I am covering for fascists, contributing to a genocide of trans people or any other such silliness, I can preemptively inform you that you are a clownperson and I won't be responding.

 

[madmug]

Logic says themselves.

I would have though just the legal testosterone levels/ratios, as well as other steroid/growth/stimulant testing that goes on currently.

Just looking at Olympics they go by the ratio between Testosterone & Epitestosterone, Given as normally 1:1, They allow up to 4:1 & test after that as blood tests can tell if the athlete has been given artificial epitestosterone to keep under the ratio.
Men have a higher allowable Testosterone level to women.

All very interesting. Trans men compete freely with the current testing regimes.

 

[owen87]

Quite - but the rest of them still look like blokes.

Didn't realise winning or losing a sports competition was based on looks.

 

[Better Loosen Up]

Logic says themselves.

There lies the problem... logic

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

I would have though just the legal testosterone levels/ratios, as well as other steroid/growth/stimulant testing that goes on currently.

Just looking at Olympics they go by the ratio between Testosterone & Epitestosterone, Given as normally 1:1, They allow up to 4:1 & test after that as blood tests can tell if the athlete has been given artificial epitestosterone to keep under the ratio.
Men have a higher allowable Testosterone level to women.

All very interesting. Trans men compete freely with the current testing regimes.

Female Vs Female.
Men Vs Men.
Trans Vs Trans.
How hard can it be to workout?

 

[the_interloper]

Weight divisions in combat sports are a safety precaution. It would very much depend on the sport when discussing age groups in kids sports; there's some sports in which you could be extremely lenient, but others in which you could absolutely dissolve age groupings to skill/competency levels. The cricket competition in my area has flirted with the idea of grouping kids not in age groups at all but at skill levels; let a 12 year old who's capable of it face U14's bowling, have a 15 year old with no hand-eye playing lower grades on permit and not overachieving.

And that also wasn't the point being made. Phelps has several different physical divergences from the norm that make him a perfect swimmer. It's interesting how fairness matters when we're talking about transgender inclusion but didn't when Phelps won golds for fun.

No, I would say weight divisions are in combat sports mainly to keep things fair, the cornermen and referees are there to keep things safe. Generally speaking fighters of larger weight have more of an advantage so that's why fighters are separated that way.

Of course we can have fighters from lower weights who could beat bigger opponents but in general combat sports legislate this as a general rule.

This would be similar for age groups in junior sports. It's not exactly the same as the previous example but generally older kids will be better than younger kids, obviously some younger kids will be better than those older but it's not a general rule.

This would be similar to those born female and those born male in my opinion. Of course there would be some females who can beat men at sport but this is not really the norm and sports have to try and make rules to govern their sports, usually this means having separate comps for men and women.

People can call these views transphobic or not, I really don't give a s**t.

 

[Gralin]

Female Vs Female.
Men Vs Men.
Trans Vs Trans.
How hard can it be to workout?

So trans men vs trans women then?

 

[Gralin]

Cis men are already excluded from Womens comps mate. We have that exclusion for a reason (men are biologically stronger than women, and at the elite level, that difference matters).

We're talking about sports here at the elite level where 1/100th of a second matters. We need to be fair to elite cis female athletes, while at the same time being as inclusive as possible to trans-women.

There is a growing body of scientific consensus, that trans-women may (and often do) have a competitive advantage over cis-female athletes, and I cant see any world where its fair to the cis-women to have a carte blanche approach that favors inclusiveness over competitive fairness (and the whole reasons we have gender segregated competitions in the first place).

We have to balance those two competing interests.

The competitive advantage doesnt apply to ALL trans-women, and things like early transitioning, hormone replacement and so forth can reduce or eliminate that competitive advantage to a great degree.

I think at the lower levels, its more just a question of self identity being the determining factor, but as one rises higher in the ranks to the elite level, the questions asked need to be more rigorous so as not to disadvantage the elite cis-women, and the standards clearly expressed so trans-female athletes know in advance what the pre-requisites for competition at that level are. All such decisions need to be guided by science, and not politics.

That's a far cry from fascism mate.

The whole fairness in sport is bullshit, its always been bullshit and it will always be bullshit.

The policing of women in sport, the idea that only men can perform at the top level, none of it is new, its all rooted in the patriachy anyway.

They've been doing gender tests on women in sports for almost as long as they've had women in sports.

Chromosomal tests aren't new, they've been used in the past to target and disqualify intersex athletes.

The Humiliating Practice of Sex-Testing Female Athletes (Published 2016)

For years, international sports organizations have been policing women for “masculine” qualities — and turning their Olympic dreams into nightmares. But when Dutee Chand appealed her ban, she may have changed the rules.

www.nytimes.com

That article is 6 years old and nothing has changed, it's still a bunch of people that are certain they know testosterone is the magic pill and only guys can be really good athletes and they're very, very happy to make life extremely difficult for any woman who challenges that.

So yeah to me this trans women in sport thing is bullshit misogyny

Oh and 100% you're siding with fascists when you support this, they've latched onto this, the whole alt right is all over this, they don't want to stop at women's sport though, they want to go back to nazi germyand try and kill them all.

So yeah think about the long game being played by the people who you are agreeing with

 

[Gethelred]

I really don't give a s**t.

That's kind of you as a poster, TBH.

You don't shift for anyone.

 

[Gethelred]

It certainly would have been fair to exclude him from the womens comp.

Lazy, Mal.

 

[the_interloper]

That's kind of you as a poster, TBH.

You don't shift for anyone.

You could be right, though I don’t see too many changing their minds in here that’s for sure